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Re: Champion Hill;

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  • Tony Gunter
    ... am ... Johnston was north of Jackson with 6,000 men. Pemberton was at Edwards Station with 23,000 men, marching towards the federal corps of McPherson and
    Message 1 of 45 , Jul 5, 2007
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      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Williams" <carlw4514@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > If JEJ was to be in command of all forces, he could have had his own
      > threaten Grant's rear. So possibility #1 is *coordination* of what
      > IIRC was actually a larger force than grant's altogether? Notice I
      am
      > using question marks. Military Strategy 101 says don't let the enemy
      > defeat you in detail.

      Johnston was north of Jackson with 6,000 men. Pemberton was at
      Edwards Station with 23,000 men, marching towards the federal corps
      of McPherson and McClernand, maybe 36,000 men, plus Blair's division,
      another 5,000 men.

      The scenario which puts Johnston on the scene probably requires that
      he hand over evacuation of Jackson to a subordinate, put himself in
      an ambulance, and ride to Pemberton with, at most, a cavalry escort.

      So I think you're probably still stuck with Pemberton's 23,000 men,
      unless Johnston arrives in time to order the garrison at Vicksburg to
      join him. Given that the Vicksburg garrison would all bottleneck at
      the Big Black River, it's doubtful they could have gotten to Champion
      Hill in time.

      > A better commander could have moved north of the RR in time?

      North of the railroad = abandon Vicksburg, because McClernand would
      have been in Edwards by the time Pemberton's mobile force could have
      reacted.



      > if we are stuck with our commander till this point in time, is it a
      > foregone conclusion that a see-saw battle can't go the other way?

      That's my conclusion. I think if you're looking for successful
      counter-factual threads, you need to start prior to Champion Hill at
      or before Raymond.

      Which makes it all the more significant to me that McPherson managed
      to sucker Gregg into attacking, when he was actually supposed to
      withdraw behind the fortifications at Jackson, while McPherson was
      originally supposed to operate against Jackson independently.

      McPherson, without any seige artillery, would have been facing a
      force of 7,000 men, supported by heavy artillery, behind
      fortifications. And the Confederate reinforcements would have
      steadily trickled in over the next few days, raising the force
      available for the defense of Jackson to around 12,000 - 13,000
      shortly.
    • Steve Hall
      You mention how Sherman and Grant worked together to prevent the movement of troops between theaters, and many have spoken of how great this plan was, but in
      Message 45 of 45 , Jul 21, 2007
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        You mention how Sherman and Grant worked together to prevent the movement of troops between theaters, and many have spoken of how great this plan was, but in reality it did not matter that much.  Think about it, the ONLY major battle of the entire war which was influenced by the movement of troops from one major army to another was Chickamauga!  Even then most of Longstreets men were late to the party! 
         
        With only one viable route for the transportation of troops between the two armies, and it was almost worn out by this time, I don't see how any major movement of troops between the two armies was possible, so the "Cooperation" between Grant and Sherman really did not effect the outcome of the conflict. 
         
        Steve Hall - Commander
        Lt. Col. William Luffman Camp #938
        Sons of Confederate Veterans
        Chatsworth, Georgia
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:41 PM
        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Champion Hill;

        I am not sure what you mean by Cohesion on the east side of the river.
        Grant's army certainly acted in concert, except for McClernand at Champion
        Hill. But even he did O.K.

        Now by east side of the river, you mean the entire area from the Mississippi
        to the East Coast, I just don't know enough to comment.

        But Grant's movement down the Louisiana border to Bruinsberg to Jackson to
        Vicksburg was like a "Ballet for Three Division's". Wow, I've got to use
        that phrase again!

        Same goes for Sherman on his way from Chattanoga to Atlanta. Except he
        conducted a "Ballet for Three Army's". Grant and Sherman actually
        co-ordinated their activities so that the Confederates could not transfer
        troops from one theater to the other.

        edkiniry, who took part in those ballets. No...he did not wear tights. He
        shod horses and shot
        cannons.

        >From: keeno2@...
        >Reply-To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
        >To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
        >Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Champion Hill;
        >Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 21:34:02 EDT
        >
        >Nothing particularly unusual about the lack of cohesion Trans-Mississippi.
        >It was barely evident on the east side of the river. In both armies.
        >
        >ole
        >
        >
        >
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