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An interesting thing about the Battle of Raymond

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  • Tony Gunter
    The traditional Bearss mythology holds up McPherson as a bumbling glad-hander who brown-nosed his way to the top. I believe this colors his analysis of the
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 4, 2007
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      The traditional Bearss mythology holds up McPherson as a bumbling
      glad-hander who brown-nosed his way to the top. I believe this
      colors his analysis of the Battle of Raymond, for which he has much
      criticism for McPherson and praise for Gregg. However, check out
      this quote in the O.R. for the 23rd Indiana:

      "At 11 o'clock a.m. of May 12, the Twenty-third Regiment Indiana
      Volunteers was ordered to take position upon the right of the main
      road, on the right of the brigade. Having taken this position, we
      moved forward in line of battle, across open fields, to the edge of
      some timber, distant about half a mile."

      One-half mile behind the edge of the timber would be behind the next
      hill. Deploying in such a manner would prevent the federal columns
      from being seen, and eliminate the massive tell-tale dust clouds that
      telegraphed the Confederate movements.

      In other words, McPherson hid his deployment from Gregg, and lured
      him into attacking what appeared to be a lone brigade of infantry.
      Gregg thought he was ambushing the federals. In reality, McPherson
      was the one setting the trap.

      In addition to this interesting little trap of McPherson's, his use
      of cavalry and artillery at Raymond were innovative and daring.
    • James W. Durney
      ... and the non-traditional Gunter mythology is?
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
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        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > The traditional Bearss mythology holds

        and the non-traditional Gunter mythology is?
      • Tony Gunter
        ... ... to attempt to decipher what actually happened based on the facts rather than any pre-conceived notions of the players involved?
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
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          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > The traditional Bearss mythology holds
          >
          > and the non-traditional Gunter mythology is ...

          ... to attempt to decipher what actually happened based on the facts
          rather than any pre-conceived notions of the players involved?
        • DORR64OVI@aol.com
          In a message dated 3/4/2007 7:43:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tony_gunter@yahoo.com writes: The traditional Bearss mythology holds up McPherson as a bumbling
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
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            In a message dated 3/4/2007 7:43:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tony_gunter@... writes:


            The traditional Bearss mythology holds up McPherson as a bumbling
            glad-hander who brown-nosed his way to the top. I believe this
            colors his analysis of the Battle of Raymond, for which he has much
            criticism for McPherson and praise for Gregg. However, check out
            this quote in the O.R. for the 23rd Indiana:

            "At 11 o'clock a.m. of May 12, the Twenty-third Regiment Indiana
            Volunteers was ordered to take position upon the right of the main
            road, on the right of the brigade. Having taken this position, we
            moved forward in line of battle, across open fields, to the edge of
            some timber, distant about half a mile."

            One-half mile behind the edge of the timber would be behind the next
            hill. Deploying in such a manner would prevent the federal columns
            from being seen, and eliminate the massive tell-tale dust clouds that
            telegraphed the Confederate movements.

            In other words, McPherson hid his deployment from Gregg, and lured
            him into attacking what appeared to be a lone brigade of infantry.
            Gregg thought he was ambushing the federals. In reality, McPherson
            was the one setting the trap.

            In addition to this interesting little trap of McPherson's, his use
            of cavalry and artillery at Raymond were innovative and daring.

            Do you have a source that confirms that this deployment was done by Mac for the reason you have discerned?
             
             
            Kent Dorr




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          • Tony Gunter
            ... much ... of ... next ... that ... use ... Mac for ... You mean, besides Occam s Razor? No. Honestly, I d love to hear a different opinion of why the
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
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              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, DORR64OVI@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 3/4/2007 7:43:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              > tony_gunter@... writes:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The traditional Bearss mythology holds up McPherson as a bumbling
              > glad-hander who brown-nosed his way to the top. I believe this
              > colors his analysis of the Battle of Raymond, for which he has
              much
              > criticism for McPherson and praise for Gregg. However, check out
              > this quote in the O.R. for the 23rd Indiana:
              >
              > "At 11 o'clock a.m. of May 12, the Twenty-third Regiment Indiana
              > Volunteers was ordered to take position upon the right of the main
              > road, on the right of the brigade. Having taken this position, we
              > moved forward in line of battle, across open fields, to the edge
              of
              > some timber, distant about half a mile."
              >
              > One-half mile behind the edge of the timber would be behind the
              next
              > hill. Deploying in such a manner would prevent the federal columns
              > from being seen, and eliminate the massive tell-tale dust clouds
              that
              > telegraphed the Confederate movements.
              >
              > In other words, McPherson hid his deployment from Gregg, and lured
              > him into attacking what appeared to be a lone brigade of infantry.
              > Gregg thought he was ambushing the federals. In reality, McPherson
              > was the one setting the trap.
              >
              > In addition to this interesting little trap of McPherson's, his
              use
              > of cavalry and artillery at Raymond were innovative and daring.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Do you have a source that confirms that this deployment was done by
              Mac for
              > the reason you have discerned?

              You mean, besides Occam's Razor? No. Honestly, I'd love to hear a
              different opinion of why the second brigade in line was staged 1/2
              mile away from the first. What's your opinion?
            • gnrljejohnston
              ... Mac for ... With all due respect to Ed Bearss, he has been wrong before and is most likely wrong in this instance as well. What we have to remember is that
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 6, 2007
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                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, DORR64OVI@... wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Do you have a source that confirms that this deployment was done by
                Mac for
                > the reason you have discerned?

                With all due respect to Ed Bearss, he has been wrong before and is
                most likely wrong in this instance as well.

                What we have to remember is that McPhearson was an excellent engineer
                and first in his graduating class at West Point. Halleck brought him
                to Missouri in 1860 as his Chief Engineer. Mac also was instumental
                in the planning of Belmont, Ft Donelson, and Ft Henry. He also was
                sent to aide Sherman in the setting up the camps at Pittsburg
                Landing. What ever he earned, he earned by his skills, not by Brown
                nosing. What ever accolades he received, he received by his deeds,
                not just to be flattered.

                I am not that well versed on the battle of Raymond as our esteemed
                Tony is. I do not know if the deployment was by Mac's design or by
                someone else. I do know however, he was very capable of setting up
                the deployment in question, as shown by his past performances. As
                for his past performances, one only has to read the OR's.

                Was he a favorite of Grant and Sherman. Yes, but this being a
                favorite was not just a given, it once again was earned by his
                ability to follow orders and his ability to complete the mission
                given to him. And once again, having the loyalty of a fellow WP man.

                JEJ
              • DORR64OVI@aol.com
                Tony...like others here my knowledge of the battle of Raymond is limited. I dont have the wallet for Bearrs, so I havent read his work on Vicksburg. You
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 6, 2007
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                  Tony...like others here my knowledge of the battle of Raymond is limited.  I dont have the wallet for Bearrs, so I havent read his work on Vicksburg.  You have mentioned more than once that you are not agreement with his interpretation.  Why dont you lay out it in detail for us what you perceive happened and the facts to back up what you think?
                     You sold me that the 68th Ohio didn't rout.  Sell me the rest of the story.
                   
                  Kent Dorr




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