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  • tristan4th
    Greetings... Presently I m reading Duane Schultz Quantriil s War ... 1863 Missouri, Gen.Ewing posted Order #10, some women supposedly known to be aiding local
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 8, 2006
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      Greetings...
      Presently I'm reading Duane Schultz "Quantriil's War"...
      1863 Missouri, Gen.Ewing posted Order #10, some women
      supposedly known to be aiding local southern partisans were arrested
      and detained at hotel in Kansas City. From most of the books I've read
      previously, it is to be said that possibly union troops messed with the
      foundation underneath causing it to collapse. Schultz's book is the
      first that I've come across that totally denies that union men would do
      such a thing... ???
      Any input from you folks???
      Respectfully Your Humble Servant,
      Capt. McCracken...........
    • keeno2@aol.com
      In a message dated 12/8/2006 9:56:20 AM Central Standard Time, tristan4th@yahoo.com writes: Schultz s book is the first that I ve come across that totally
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 8, 2006
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        In a message dated 12/8/2006 9:56:20 AM Central Standard Time, tristan4th@... writes:
        Schultz's book is the first that I've come across that totally denies that union men would do such a thing...  ???
        Had a discussion on one or another board about this very thing some years ago. No conclusive evidence either way. Lots of heat; little substance. Personally, if the Yankees had wanted the ladies injured or dead, they wouldn't have needed to go through all that trouble to make it happen.
        Ken
      • Dave Gorski
        Per the orders of Brig. General Thomas Ewing, nine women were arrested on charges of spying and otherwise aiding Confederate partisans. Two of the women were
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 8, 2006
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          Per the orders of Brig. General Thomas Ewing, nine women
          were arrested on charges of spying and otherwise aiding
          Confederate partisans. Two of the women were the sisters
          of Bill Anderson, a third sister, Janie, was allowed to accompany
          her sisters because she had no place else to go.

          The Thomas building, built in 1859, collapsed because an adjoining
          building, being used as a guardhouse, had had partitions and posts
          removed to make additional room. The guardhouse building began
          to sag into the Thomas building where prisoners were being held
          on the second floor. When cracks appeared, the provost marshal
          sent someone to investigate and while he was doing so, the building
          collapsed. A terrible accident to be sure. The soldiers who removed
          the posts and partitions should not have done so, but they certainly
          did not do so with any intent to cause the building to collapse.

          The three-story brick building, known as the Thomas Building,
          was on the east side of Grand Ave. - No. 1409 Grand Avenue, in
          what was called McGee's Addition. On either side were two story
          buildings. The Thomas Building had a frontage of 25 feet.
          Access to the third floor had been permanently closed. Access to
          the second floor was by outside stairway in the rear of the building.
          The owner of the building was G.C. Bingham who had lived and worked
          there not long before. Bingham was an artist, a painter, who had added
          the third story to use as a studio.
          The first floor of the building was a store, mostly clothing, jewelry,
          groceries, and liquor. The second floor, to be used as a prison for
          the women, was divided into three rooms. Several of the women
          did not get along with each other so one room held only two, and
          the others divided up by themselves. There was little to no
          communication between the groups, by their choice. The women
          were allowed, with a pledge to not try and escape, to visit other
          stores and to walk the streets, accompanied by a guard who had
          been instructed to remain far enough behind as to not be able to
          overhear the women. The Captain of the Guard was Frank Parker,
          Company C, 11th Kansas. Cards, and musical instruments were
          provided.
          Lt. John Singer Co. H 9th Kansas was Provost Captain on the day
          of the collapse. The officer in charge at the building sent Singer
          word that he felt the building had become unsafe. Singer inspected
          and reported to General Ewing, requesting he inspect the building.
          Ewing sent his adjutant, who reported that the building seemed safe
          enough. Parker and Thomas Barber of the 11th Kansas went again
          to inspect, and found the walls separating from the ceiling. The
          building began to collapse as they ran down the steps yelling for
          everyone to get out. The merchant on the first floor was also
          injured in the collapse. Uninjured prisoners were taken to the
          Union Hotel. The injured were taken to the military hospital.
          The four women killed were Charity Kerr, Josephine Anderson,
          Mrs. Selvey, and Mrs. Vandiver.

          Indirectly, yes, soldiers had tampered with the building next door.

          Upon recovering the victims of the accident, it was discovered that
          the structure had been further weakened by a tunnel that was
          being dug under the foundation. The women had begun to tunnel
          upon learning of plans to send them to St. Louis. The notion of
          a plot to kill them by having a building fall on them is wholly
          unsubstantiated.

          The story of a Federal "undermining" of the building was
          started by one of the prisoners, Mrs. Sue Womack, whose
          only evidence for the claim was that "I saw soldiers going
          into...the store as thick as bees all day." Well, he was
          selling liquor so that would not seem so unusual. Further,
          had an attempt been made to undermine the building,
          it is unlikely that the storekeeper would have stayed in
          the building while it collapsed around him.

          Regards, Dave Gorski
        • Steve Saultz
          Hi Ken... Yes.. I m in somewhat of an agreement with you here. Plus... I just can t see it IMHO... I suppose I m looking at the old time chilvary attitude,
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 9, 2006
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                      Hi Ken...
                                Yes.. I'm in somewhat of an agreement with you here.  Plus... I just can't see it IMHO... I suppose I'm looking at the "old time chilvary" attitude, that no one back then would hurt women or small children. Even at the Lawerence Raid, as far as I've learned no women were killed.
                But being such a known incident, (hotel collapse), I was just curious...
                
                  Once again I thank you Ken....
                    With All Due Respects,
                    Capt. McCracken........

            keeno2@... wrote:
            In a message dated 12/8/2006 9:56:20 AM Central Standard Time, tristan4th@yahoo. com writes:
            Schultz's book is the first that I've come across that totally denies that union men would do such a thing...  ???
            Had a discussion on one or another board about this very thing some years ago. No conclusive evidence either way. Lots of heat; little substance. Personally, if the Yankees had wanted the ladies injured or dead, they wouldn't have needed to go through all that trouble to make it happen.
            Ken


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          • Steve Saultz
            Hi Dave... Thankyou very much! Can you name a few references for me so that I may look & save for myself?? I really appreciate it. Respectfully Your Humble
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 9, 2006
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                     Hi Dave...
                           Thankyou very much!  Can you name a few references for me so that I may look & save for myself??   I really appreciate it.
                     Respectfully Your Humble Servant,
                      Capt. McCracken..........

              Dave Gorski <amhistoryguy@...> wrote:

              Per the orders of Brig. General Thomas Ewing, nine women
              were arrested on charges of spying and otherwise aiding
              Confederate partisans. Two of the women were the sisters
              of Bill Anderson, a third sister, Janie, was allowed to accompany
              her sisters because she had no place else to go.

              The Thomas building, built in 1859, collapsed because an adjoining
              building, being used as a guardhouse, had had partitions and posts
              removed to make additional room. The guardhouse building began
              to sag into the Thomas building where prisoners were being held
              on the second floor. When cracks appeared, the provost marshal
              sent someone to investigate and while he was doing so, the building
              collapsed. A terrible accident to be sure. The soldiers who removed
              the posts and partitions should not have done so, but they certainly
              did not do so with any intent to cause the building to collapse.

              The three-story brick building, known as the Thomas Building,
              was on the east side of Grand Ave. - No. 1409 Grand Avenue, in
              what was called McGee's Addition. On either side were two story
              buildings. The Thomas Building had a frontage of 25 feet.
              Access to the third floor had been permanently closed. Access to
              the second floor was by outside stairway in the rear of the building.
              The owner of the building was G.C. Bingham who had lived and worked
              there not long before. Bingham was an artist, a painter, who had added
              the third story to use as a studio.
              The first floor of the building was a store, mostly clothing, jewelry,
              groceries, and liquor. The second floor, to be used as a prison for
              the women, was divided into three rooms. Several of the women
              did not get along with each other so one room held only two, and
              the others divided up by themselves. There was little to no
              communication between the groups, by their choice. The women
              were allowed, with a pledge to not try and escape, to visit other
              stores and to walk the streets, accompanied by a guard who had
              been instructed to remain far enough behind as to not be able to
              overhear the women. The Captain of the Guard was Frank Parker,
              Company C, 11th Kansas. Cards, and musical instruments were
              provided.
              Lt. John Singer Co. H 9th Kansas was Provost Captain on the day
              of the collapse. The officer in charge at the building sent Singer
              word that he felt the building had become unsafe. Singer inspected
              and reported to General Ewing, requesting he inspect the building.
              Ewing sent his adjutant, who reported that the building seemed safe
              enough. Parker and Thomas Barber of the 11th Kansas went again
              to inspect, and found the walls separating from the ceiling. The
              building began to collapse as they ran down the steps yelling for
              everyone to get out. The merchant on the first floor was also
              injured in the collapse. Uninjured prisoners were taken to the
              Union Hotel. The injured were taken to the military hospital.
              The four women killed were Charity Kerr, Josephine Anderson,
              Mrs. Selvey, and Mrs. Vandiver.

              Indirectly, yes, soldiers had tampered with the building next door.

              Upon recovering the victims of the accident, it was discovered that
              the structure had been further weakened by a tunnel that was
              being dug under the foundation. The women had begun to tunnel
              upon learning of plans to send them to St. Louis. The notion of
              a plot to kill them by having a building fall on them is wholly
              unsubstantiated.

              The story of a Federal "undermining" of the building was
              started by one of the prisoners, Mrs. Sue Womack, whose
              only evidence for the claim was that "I saw soldiers going
              into...the store as thick as bees all day." Well, he was
              selling liquor so that would not seem so unusual. Further,
              had an attempt been made to undermine the building,
              it is unlikely that the storekeeper would have stayed in
              the building while it collapsed around him.

              Regards, Dave Gorski


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            • Dave Gorski
              ... Captain, My research on this subject was done quite a few years ago, and before I had much space to store papers etc.. My originals with sources are not
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 9, 2006
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                > Can you name a few references for me so that I may look &
                >save for myself?? I really appreciate it.

                Captain,
                My research on this subject was done quite a few years ago,
                and before I had much space to store papers etc.. My originals
                with sources are not at hand - (in fact packed away
                somewhere) - but, I do have a few sources that back what I
                posted.

                The Missouri Historical Review, No. 89, April 1995, pages 290 to
                306, an article, "Catalyst of Terror; The Collapse of the Women's
                Prison in Kansas City," by Charles F. Harris, is far and away the
                best source of information on the subject I've come across, very
                detailed and extensive.

                There is a good account in Albert Castel & Thomas Goodrich's
                book "Bloody Bill Anderson," pages 26 and 27. An account
                can also be found in "Civil War on the Western Border," by Jay
                Monaghan, page 280. As mentioned in the original post, Duane
                Schutz has an extensive mention of the accident in "Quantrill's
                War," pages 140 to 143. William Elsey Connelley, in "Quantrill
                & the Border Wars," pages 299 to 304, relates the information
                he obtained on the subject after interviewing a number of folks
                with first hand knowledge of the accident.

                Some information can also obtained through period newspaper
                accounts. "The Kansas City Daily Journal of Commerce" for
                August 4, 1863, has an account, which you may be able to obtain
                through inter library loan. The Indiana State Library in Indianapolis
                has an extensive collection of newspapers on film, and IIRC, that is
                where I viewed articles on the accident.

                The is also information available IIRC, at the Missouri State Archives
                in Jefferson City, MO, and also at the Missouri State Historical Society
                in St. Louis, MO.

                Hope this has been of some help.

                Regards, Dave Gorski
              • Steve Saultz
                Hi Dave.. Thankyou Sir so very much! Capt......... ... Captain, My research on this subject was done quite a few years ago, and before I had much space to
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 9, 2006
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                          Hi Dave..
                               Thankyou Sir so very much!
                                    Capt.........

                  Dave Gorski <amhistoryguy@...> wrote:
                  > Can you name a few references for me so that I may look &
                  >save for myself?? I really appreciate it.

                  Captain,
                  My research on this subject was done quite a few years ago,
                  and before I had much space to store papers etc.. My originals
                  with sources are not at hand - (in fact packed away
                  somewhere) - but, I do have a few sources that back what I
                  posted.

                  The Missouri Historical Review, No. 89, April 1995, pages 290 to
                  306, an article, "Catalyst of Terror; The Collapse of the Women's
                  Prison in Kansas City," by Charles F. Harris, is far and away the
                  best source of information on the subject I've come across, very
                  detailed and extensive.

                  There is a good account in Albert Castel & Thomas Goodrich's
                  book "Bloody Bill Anderson," pages 26 and 27. An account
                  can also be found in "Civil War on the Western Border," by Jay
                  Monaghan, page 280. As mentioned in the original post, Duane
                  Schutz has an extensive mention of the accident in "Quantrill's
                  War," pages 140 to 143. William Elsey Connelley, in "Quantrill
                  & the Border Wars," pages 299 to 304, relates the information
                  he obtained on the subject after interviewing a number of folks
                  with first hand knowledge of the accident.

                  Some information can also obtained through period newspaper
                  accounts. "The Kansas City Daily Journal of Commerce" for
                  August 4, 1863, has an account, which you may be able to obtain
                  through inter library loan. The Indiana State Library in Indianapolis
                  has an extensive collection of newspapers on film, and IIRC, that is
                  where I viewed articles on the accident.

                  The is also information available IIRC, at the Missouri State Archives
                  in Jefferson City, MO, and also at the Missouri State Historical Society
                  in St. Louis, MO.

                  Hope this has been of some help.

                  Regards, Dave Gorski



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