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Re: [civilwarwest] Great RR Journeys

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  • Mary Hawthorne
    Not so much for the greatness of the journey but for the importance of rail transportation...Andrew s Raid in 62. bluelady ... From: Bill Bruner To:
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 25, 2006
      Not so much for the greatness of the journey but for the importance of rail transportation...Andrew's Raid in 62.
      bluelady
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:00 PM
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Great RR Journeys

      I am trying to digest and get some understanding of the geography of
      the CW by studying the RRs.

      The most interesting way I have found to do this is the study and
      tracing of different great journeys made on the RR. To this end I
      have come up with four remarkable trips:

      1. Bragg's movement from Tupelo to Chattanooga
      2. Jefferson Davis' trip to Vicksburg in 63
      3. Freemantles journey (23 diff roads) from Texas to Gettysburg
      4. Davis' trip in 65 to Palmetto, Ga. and Montgomery

      I would be most pleased if someone could add to this list.

      Thank you, Bill Bruner

    • Dick Weeks
      Thanks a lot for that info Walt and thank your friend for allowing you to share it. I have to admit that I had not seen the that kind of material before. I
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 25, 2006
        Thanks a lot for that info Walt and thank your friend for allowing you to
        share it. I have to admit that I had not seen the that kind of material
        before. I might have to go out and but "The Lincoln Funeral Train." Thanks
        again.

        I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
        Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
        http://www.civilwarhome.com

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Walt" <scentofhorse@...>
        To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:26 AM
        Subject: [civilwarwest] Great RR Journeys THE LINCOLN FUNERAL TRAIN


        > Dear Mr.Bruner:
        >
        > I have the honour to provide you with an account which was received by
        > wire at these offices only yesterday. It was furnish'd by Messr.
        > Scott Trostel, author of THE LINCOLN FUNERAL TRAIN. I have been given
        > permission to share it with you and others on this discussion board
        > and it reads as follows:
        >
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > There has long been a great deal of confusion about just how many
        > locomotives pulled the train over its 1,700 mile route. This is
        > largely due to the style of local reporting at the time of the funeral
        > train. At this point I know of 44 separate locomotives used over the
        > route, this includes pilot train locomotives, funeral train
        > locomotives and at least two terminal switch engines.
        >
        > I met with Mark Warther, grandson of Mooney Warther, famous carver of
        > locomotives and the Lincoln funeral train, two weeks ago. He was quite
        > surprised to learn of the actual number of locomotives used. His
        > grandfather had made the assumption it was considerable less than the
        > 44 known.
        >
        > Locomotive 331 was a PRR locomotive that pulled the funeral train from
        > Harrisburg to Philadelphia on April 22. At all times the "funeral
        > train" consisted of no less than two distinct trains and on the B & O
        > it was a pilot train pulled by B&O 239 with Wm. Galloway as engineer
        > and James Brown as fireman. The actual funeral train was pulled by B&O
        > 238 with Thomas Beckitt engineer and C. A. Miller fireman.
        >
        > Newspapers in April 1865, were so anxious to report progress of the
        > train that they would pick-up the telegraph news reports from some
        > distant town, where a locomotive name and/or number was reported and
        > somehow it worked itself into a news story that latter proved to be in
        > error.
        >
        > The Associated Press reporters - there were two on the train, got into
        > a bit of trouble by trying to guess how things would go in coming
        > hours as the train switched from day time to night time running, which
        > happened west of Albany, New York. They wanted a bit of sack time
        > apparently, and so made out reports based on prior events and finally
        > got caught at Syracuse, New York by the newspaper editor there, who
        > promptly took them to task in his publication. In my 37 years of
        > research on the topic, it caused me to have to retrace all of my prior
        > research to validate many newspaper accounts. In that AP reporting,
        > certain few locomotives are often reported hundreds of miles from
        > their home rails, which was a gross error because in those days a
        > typical locomotive was good for about 75 miles of running until it
        > needed servicing. The railroads were prepared for any kind of
        > maintenance, loading mechanics and parts into a baggage car on the
        > pilot train just in case something happened en route.
        >
        > There were seven reporters allowed on the train and I ended up having
        > to follow the reports of each and in many cases the other five
        > reporters accounts closely follow the track-side accounts of local
        > newspapers along the route. The AP guys never did catch on, continuing
        > to report wrong station names, times of events that were an hour or
        > more in difference to local times and even skipping some terminal
        > stops and memorial stops en route. Has anything changed today?
        >
        > It was Webster Wagner's sleeping cars that were on the train west of
        > Albany, New York, when sleeping cars were added to the train. George
        > M. Pullman's small fleet was split between being used at Springfield
        > as portable hotels and a few which were attached to an advance train
        > at Chicago. Shamefully, Pullman used the funeral to promote his new
        > hotel cars and hauled many members of the press through the cars at
        > Springfield to get additional PR for his hotel car service. He got
        > his needed press coverage, usually printed elsewhere in many papers
        > during the funeral.
        >
        > On top of Lincoln's designation of Thanksgiving, the tradition of
        > florals at funerals is established with the Lincoln funeral. Lincoln
        > was mumified, but the process could not be fully completed, so his
        > coffin was lined with lead sheeting to act as a water-tight seal and
        > he was packed on ice for the entire trip. The florals were used as a
        > frangrance to mask the ongoing odor of decomposition.
        >
        > The funeral was shortened by two days by the time the train reached
        > Buffalo, New York becasue he gas getting "rather fragrant." The
        > entiore story is a rather amazing bit of American engenuity.
        > Everything from having troops on board to protect from gurilla raiders
        > to crossing rivers without bridges, to leaving part of the official
        > delegation behind at a breakfast stop, to a run-away funeral train.
        >
        > About one-fourth of the United States population is estimated to have
        > been at track side. For weeks after his coffin laid in state at The
        > Exchange in Baltimore, crowds passed through to see the spot where the
        > remains of the great president had lain for a few hours on April 21, 1865.
        >
        > The Lincoln scholars tell me that when the book came out three years
        > ago, it was the first new ground published on Lincoln in about 50
        > years. Out here in Ohio, at the time of the Civil War, many
        > communities were small rural towns and villages and they had perhaps a
        > weekly paper which, while it gave coverage of the train, failed to
        > fully detail, as I would have liked, certain elements and facts. I
        > finally gave in after 37 years and sent it to press. It is currently
        > awaiting a reprint as a soft-cover and is listed on my web site.
        >
        > Scott Trostel
        > http://canteenbooks.com
        >
      • Dick Weeks
        Sure hosed up that reply. Meant to say I might have to go out and buy The Lincoln Funeral Train. Of course you all knew that but it just read so hooky
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 25, 2006
          Sure hosed up that reply. Meant to say "I might have to go out and "buy"
          "The Lincoln Funeral Train." Of course you all knew that but it just read
          so hooky I thought I have better clarify :-)

          I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
          Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
          http://www.civilwarhome.com
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Dick Weeks" <shotgun@...>
          To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 6:44 PM
          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Great RR Journeys THE LINCOLN FUNERAL TRAIN


          > Thanks a lot for that info Walt and thank your friend for allowing you to
          > share it. I have to admit that I had not seen the that kind of material
          > before. I might have to go out and but "The Lincoln Funeral Train."
          > Thanks
          > again.
          >
          > I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
          > Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
          > http://www.civilwarhome.com
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Walt" <scentofhorse@...>
          > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:26 AM
          > Subject: [civilwarwest] Great RR Journeys THE LINCOLN FUNERAL TRAIN
          >
          >
          >> Dear Mr.Bruner:
          >>
          >> I have the honour to provide you with an account which was received by
          >> wire at these offices only yesterday. It was furnish'd by Messr.
          >> Scott Trostel, author of THE LINCOLN FUNERAL TRAIN. I have been given
          >> permission to share it with you and others on this discussion board
          >> and it reads as follows:
          >>
          >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          >> There has long been a great deal of confusion about just how many
          >> locomotives pulled the train over its 1,700 mile route. This is
          >> largely due to the style of local reporting at the time of the funeral
          >> train. At this point I know of 44 separate locomotives used over the
          >> route, this includes pilot train locomotives, funeral train
          >> locomotives and at least two terminal switch engines.
          >>
          >> I met with Mark Warther, grandson of Mooney Warther, famous carver of
          >> locomotives and the Lincoln funeral train, two weeks ago. He was quite
          >> surprised to learn of the actual number of locomotives used. His
          >> grandfather had made the assumption it was considerable less than the
          >> 44 known.
          >>
          >> Locomotive 331 was a PRR locomotive that pulled the funeral train from
          >> Harrisburg to Philadelphia on April 22. At all times the "funeral
          >> train" consisted of no less than two distinct trains and on the B & O
          >> it was a pilot train pulled by B&O 239 with Wm. Galloway as engineer
          >> and James Brown as fireman. The actual funeral train was pulled by B&O
          >> 238 with Thomas Beckitt engineer and C. A. Miller fireman.
          >>
          >> Newspapers in April 1865, were so anxious to report progress of the
          >> train that they would pick-up the telegraph news reports from some
          >> distant town, where a locomotive name and/or number was reported and
          >> somehow it worked itself into a news story that latter proved to be in
          >> error.
          >>
          >> The Associated Press reporters - there were two on the train, got into
          >> a bit of trouble by trying to guess how things would go in coming
          >> hours as the train switched from day time to night time running, which
          >> happened west of Albany, New York. They wanted a bit of sack time
          >> apparently, and so made out reports based on prior events and finally
          >> got caught at Syracuse, New York by the newspaper editor there, who
          >> promptly took them to task in his publication. In my 37 years of
          >> research on the topic, it caused me to have to retrace all of my prior
          >> research to validate many newspaper accounts. In that AP reporting,
          >> certain few locomotives are often reported hundreds of miles from
          >> their home rails, which was a gross error because in those days a
          >> typical locomotive was good for about 75 miles of running until it
          >> needed servicing. The railroads were prepared for any kind of
          >> maintenance, loading mechanics and parts into a baggage car on the
          >> pilot train just in case something happened en route.
          >>
          >> There were seven reporters allowed on the train and I ended up having
          >> to follow the reports of each and in many cases the other five
          >> reporters accounts closely follow the track-side accounts of local
          >> newspapers along the route. The AP guys never did catch on, continuing
          >> to report wrong station names, times of events that were an hour or
          >> more in difference to local times and even skipping some terminal
          >> stops and memorial stops en route. Has anything changed today?
          >>
          >> It was Webster Wagner's sleeping cars that were on the train west of
          >> Albany, New York, when sleeping cars were added to the train. George
          >> M. Pullman's small fleet was split between being used at Springfield
          >> as portable hotels and a few which were attached to an advance train
          >> at Chicago. Shamefully, Pullman used the funeral to promote his new
          >> hotel cars and hauled many members of the press through the cars at
          >> Springfield to get additional PR for his hotel car service. He got
          >> his needed press coverage, usually printed elsewhere in many papers
          >> during the funeral.
          >>
          >> On top of Lincoln's designation of Thanksgiving, the tradition of
          >> florals at funerals is established with the Lincoln funeral. Lincoln
          >> was mumified, but the process could not be fully completed, so his
          >> coffin was lined with lead sheeting to act as a water-tight seal and
          >> he was packed on ice for the entire trip. The florals were used as a
          >> frangrance to mask the ongoing odor of decomposition.
          >>
          >> The funeral was shortened by two days by the time the train reached
          >> Buffalo, New York becasue he gas getting "rather fragrant." The
          >> entiore story is a rather amazing bit of American engenuity.
          >> Everything from having troops on board to protect from gurilla raiders
          >> to crossing rivers without bridges, to leaving part of the official
          >> delegation behind at a breakfast stop, to a run-away funeral train.
          >>
          >> About one-fourth of the United States population is estimated to have
          >> been at track side. For weeks after his coffin laid in state at The
          >> Exchange in Baltimore, crowds passed through to see the spot where the
          >> remains of the great president had lain for a few hours on April 21,
          >> 1865.
          >>
          >> The Lincoln scholars tell me that when the book came out three years
          >> ago, it was the first new ground published on Lincoln in about 50
          >> years. Out here in Ohio, at the time of the Civil War, many
          >> communities were small rural towns and villages and they had perhaps a
          >> weekly paper which, while it gave coverage of the train, failed to
          >> fully detail, as I would have liked, certain elements and facts. I
          >> finally gave in after 37 years and sent it to press. It is currently
          >> awaiting a reprint as a soft-cover and is listed on my web site.
          >>
          >> Scott Trostel
          >> http://canteenbooks.com
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • William H Keene
          ... Atlanta ... The movement of Longstreet s troops from Virginia to reinforce General Bragg in Georgia was an outstanding logistical achievement for the
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 26, 2006
            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Bruner" <banbruner@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Longstreet to Chickamauga: I am pretty sure he came up from
            Atlanta
            > to Chick. or Ringold but I haven't read of his route to Atlanta.
            > There are numerous possibilities, some more direct than others. I
            > also don't know his exact starting point. If you have more
            > information I would appreciate it.

            "The movement of Longstreet's troops from Virginia to reinforce
            General Bragg in Georgia was an outstanding logistical achievement
            for the Confederacy. Even though by this time railroads had become
            an important factor in the strategy of war, no major troop movement
            involving so many lines over such a long distance had yet been
            attempted. It also shows the great concern the Southern War
            Department felt for the approaching battle.

            From the Army of Northern Virginia to General Bragg's forces in
            Georgia was a distance of some 900 miles by railroad lines through
            Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia. It was
            necessary for the troops to take this longer and roundabout route of
            reaching General Bragg because General Burnside had cut the railroad
            line by way of Knoxville.

            By the summer of 1863 the railroads in the Confederacy were in very
            poor condition, for it had been extremely difficult to replace rails
            and rolling stock as the war continued. For the most part, the lines
            were comparatively short; were not connected at many points; lacked
            bridges across some of the major rivers; and like railroads
            everywhere, had different gauges. Sixteen different railroad lines
            were involved in the transfer as all parallel routes and all types
            of rolling stock were pressed into service.

            In spite of all these difficulties, however, the movement was
            attended with dispatch and secrecy. Leaving the vicinity of Orange
            Courthouse, Va., on or about September 9, the advance brigades of
            Longstreet's Corps were joining General Bragg 9 days later."

            -- http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/25/hh25e.htm



            > Hooker to Chat. with what was to become the 20 Corps has peaked my
            > interest since this would be the only Federal movement on my list
            > and a very large one. I am guessing that he would have had to come
            > down from Nashville as the complicating factor in all these
            > movements is which roads were held by the enemy. I haven't read
            amy
            > sort of itinerary of this movement but it would seem to me that it
            > may rival Bragg's movement from Miss. Please, any additional info
            > would be appreciated.

            "The troops began to entrain at Manassas Junction and Bealton
            Station, Va., on September 25, and 5 days later on September 30 the
            first trains arrived at Bridgeport, Ala. The route traveled was by
            way of Washington, D. C.; Baltimore, Md.; Bellaire and Columbus,
            Ohio; Indianapolis, Ind.; Louisville, Ky.; Nashville, Tenn.; and
            Bridgeport, Ala. Several major railroad lines, including the
            Baltimore and Ohio, Central Ohio, Louisville and Nashville, and
            Nashville and Chattanooga were involved.

            Not all of the troops, however, made such good time as the first
            trains, and for the majority of the infantry the trip consumed about
            9 days. The movement of the artillery, horses, mules, baggage, and
            impediments was somewhat slower, but by the middle of October, all
            were in the vicinity of Bridgeport ready to help break the siege.

            These two corps under Maj. Gen. Joseph Hooker, comprising 20,000
            troops and more than 3,000 horses and mules, traveled 1,157 miles.
            Differences in the railroad gauges hampered the movement, but most
            of the changes in gauge occurred at river crossings which had no
            bridges and the troops had to detrain at these points anyway."

            - http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/25/hh25i.htm
          • Bill Bruner
            Very good! Excellent!! Outstanding!!! Your response and the links provided to my humble inquiry has gratified me exceedingly. Thank you, Bill Bruner ...
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 26, 2006
              Very good! Excellent!! Outstanding!!! Your response and the links
              provided to my humble inquiry has gratified me exceedingly.

              Thank you, Bill Bruner


              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene"
              <wh_keene@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Bruner" <banbruner@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Longstreet to Chickamauga: I am pretty sure he came up from
              > Atlanta
              > > to Chick. or Ringold but I haven't read of his route to
              Atlanta.
              > > There are numerous possibilities, some more direct than others.
              I
              > > also don't know his exact starting point. If you have more
              > > information I would appreciate it.
              >
              > "The movement of Longstreet's troops from Virginia to reinforce
              > General Bragg in Georgia was an outstanding logistical achievement
              > for the Confederacy. Even though by this time railroads had become
              > an important factor in the strategy of war, no major troop
              movement
              > involving so many lines over such a long distance had yet been
              > attempted. It also shows the great concern the Southern War
              > Department felt for the approaching battle.
              >
              > From the Army of Northern Virginia to General Bragg's forces in
              > Georgia was a distance of some 900 miles by railroad lines through
              > Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia. It was
              > necessary for the troops to take this longer and roundabout route
              of
              > reaching General Bragg because General Burnside had cut the
              railroad
              > line by way of Knoxville.
              >
              > By the summer of 1863 the railroads in the Confederacy were in
              very
              > poor condition, for it had been extremely difficult to replace
              rails
              > and rolling stock as the war continued. For the most part, the
              lines
              > were comparatively short; were not connected at many points;
              lacked
              > bridges across some of the major rivers; and like railroads
              > everywhere, had different gauges. Sixteen different railroad lines
              > were involved in the transfer as all parallel routes and all types
              > of rolling stock were pressed into service.
              >
              > In spite of all these difficulties, however, the movement was
              > attended with dispatch and secrecy. Leaving the vicinity of Orange
              > Courthouse, Va., on or about September 9, the advance brigades of
              > Longstreet's Corps were joining General Bragg 9 days later."
              >
              > -- http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/25/hh25e.htm
              >
              >
              >
              > > Hooker to Chat. with what was to become the 20 Corps has peaked
              my
              > > interest since this would be the only Federal movement on my
              list
              > > and a very large one. I am guessing that he would have had to
              come
              > > down from Nashville as the complicating factor in all these
              > > movements is which roads were held by the enemy. I haven't read
              > amy
              > > sort of itinerary of this movement but it would seem to me that
              it
              > > may rival Bragg's movement from Miss. Please, any additional
              info
              > > would be appreciated.
              >
              > "The troops began to entrain at Manassas Junction and Bealton
              > Station, Va., on September 25, and 5 days later on September 30
              the
              > first trains arrived at Bridgeport, Ala. The route traveled was by
              > way of Washington, D. C.; Baltimore, Md.; Bellaire and Columbus,
              > Ohio; Indianapolis, Ind.; Louisville, Ky.; Nashville, Tenn.; and
              > Bridgeport, Ala. Several major railroad lines, including the
              > Baltimore and Ohio, Central Ohio, Louisville and Nashville, and
              > Nashville and Chattanooga were involved.
              >
              > Not all of the troops, however, made such good time as the first
              > trains, and for the majority of the infantry the trip consumed
              about
              > 9 days. The movement of the artillery, horses, mules, baggage, and
              > impediments was somewhat slower, but by the middle of October, all
              > were in the vicinity of Bridgeport ready to help break the siege.
              >
              > These two corps under Maj. Gen. Joseph Hooker, comprising 20,000
              > troops and more than 3,000 horses and mules, traveled 1,157 miles.
              > Differences in the railroad gauges hampered the movement, but most
              > of the changes in gauge occurred at river crossings which had no
              > bridges and the troops had to detrain at these points anyway."
              >
              > - http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/25/hh25i.htm
              >
            • hank9174
              The 20th was perhaps the most-travelled corps in the war. Fighting first Lee in the early eastern campaigns and then at Chattanooga, Atlanta and through the
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 27, 2006
                The 20th was perhaps the most-travelled corps in the war. Fighting
                first Lee in the early eastern campaigns and then at Chattanooga,
                Atlanta and through the Carolinas, they eventually completed the
                circuit back to the grand review in Washington in May 1865.

                Rivalled by...
                the 19th corps which fought at Port Hudson and the Red River
                campaign, then shipped east and fought in Sheridan's Shenandoah
                campaign before shipping back south to garrison duty in Savannah and
                the North Carolina coast.

                And...
                Schofield's 23rd corps campiagned to Atlanta and then back to
                Nashville as the Army of the Ohio and then to Washington and
                Goldsboro NC, re-linking with Sherman's army group.

                These trips amply demonstrate the US' ability to move men and
                material long distances as their usefulness waxed and waned in
                various theaters.


                HankC

                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Jason van Teylingen
                <jvt1976@...> wrote:
                >
                > Not sure this is what you're looking for, but Hooker and the 20th
                corps from the AoP to outside Chattanooga after Chicamaugua.
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Bill Bruner <banbruner@...>
                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 8:00:09 PM
                > Subject: [civilwarwest] Great RR Journeys
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I am trying to digest and get some understanding of the
                geography of
                >
                > the CW by studying the RRs.
                >
                >
                >
                > The most interesting way I have found to do this is the study and
                >
                > tracing of different great journeys made on the RR. To this end I
                >
                > have come up with four remarkable trips:
                >
                >
                >
                > 1. Bragg's movement from Tupelo to Chattanooga
                >
                > 2. Jefferson Davis' trip to Vicksburg in 63
                >
                > 3. Freemantles journey (23 diff roads) from Texas to Gettysburg
                >
                > 4. Davis' trip in 65 to Palmetto, Ga. and Montgomery
                >
                >
                >
                > I would be most pleased if someone could add to this list.
                >
                >
                >
                > Thank you, Bill Bruner
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Bill Bruner
                I haven t computed the distances and done the necessary Arithmetic involved. But my vote for the most travelled Corps would go to the Ninth. Roanoke Island;
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 27, 2006
                  I haven't computed the distances and done the necessary Arithmetic
                  involved. But my vote for the most travelled Corps would go to the
                  Ninth.

                  Roanoke Island; New Berne; Camden; Wilmington Island; James Island;
                  Manassas; Chantilly; South Mountain; Antietam; Fredericksburg; Siege
                  Of Vicksburg; Jackson; Blue Springs; Lenoir Station; Campbell's
                  Station;Fort Sanders; Siege Of Knoxville; Strawberry Plains;
                  Wilderness; Ny River; Spotsylvania; North Anna; Bethesda Church;
                  Cold Harbor; Assault On Petersburg, June 17th; Petersburg Trenches;
                  Petersburg Mine; Weldon Railroad; Poplar Spring Church; Boydton
                  Road; Hatcher's Run; Fort Stedman; Fall Of Petersburg.

                  Bill Bruner

                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > The 20th was perhaps the most-travelled corps in the war. Fighting
                  > first Lee in the early eastern campaigns and then at Chattanooga,
                  > Atlanta and through the Carolinas, they eventually completed the
                  > circuit back to the grand review in Washington in May 1865.
                  >
                  > Rivalled by...
                  > the 19th corps which fought at Port Hudson and the Red River
                  > campaign, then shipped east and fought in Sheridan's Shenandoah
                  > campaign before shipping back south to garrison duty in Savannah
                  and
                  > the North Carolina coast.
                  >
                  > And...
                  > Schofield's 23rd corps campiagned to Atlanta and then back to
                  > Nashville as the Army of the Ohio and then to Washington and
                  > Goldsboro NC, re-linking with Sherman's army group.
                  >
                  > These trips amply demonstrate the US' ability to move men and
                  > material long distances as their usefulness waxed and waned in
                  > various theaters.
                  >
                  >
                  > HankC
                  >
                  > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Jason van Teylingen
                  > <jvt1976@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Not sure this is what you're looking for, but Hooker and the
                  20th
                  > corps from the AoP to outside Chattanooga after Chicamaugua.
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message ----
                  > > From: Bill Bruner <banbruner@>
                  > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 8:00:09 PM
                  > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Great RR Journeys
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I am trying to digest and get some understanding of
                  the
                  > geography of
                  > >
                  > > the CW by studying the RRs.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The most interesting way I have found to do this is the study
                  and
                  > >
                  > > tracing of different great journeys made on the RR. To this end
                  I
                  > >
                  > > have come up with four remarkable trips:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > 1. Bragg's movement from Tupelo to Chattanooga
                  > >
                  > > 2. Jefferson Davis' trip to Vicksburg in 63
                  > >
                  > > 3. Freemantles journey (23 diff roads) from Texas to Gettysburg
                  > >
                  > > 4. Davis' trip in 65 to Palmetto, Ga. and Montgomery
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I would be most pleased if someone could add to this list.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Thank you, Bill Bruner
                • James W. Durney
                  Wasn t the movement of Bragg s command from Florida to AS Johnston one of the first movements? James
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 27, 2006
                    Wasn't the movement of Bragg's command from Florida to AS Johnston one
                    of the first movements?

                    James
                  • Bill Bruner
                    I don t know. Do you have any specific information. I am assuming this movement would have been from Pensacola to Mississippi the RRs would have been pretty
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 27, 2006
                      I don't know. Do you have any specific information. I am assuming
                      this movement would have been from Pensacola to Mississippi the RRs
                      would have been pretty good at that time. The Memphis Charlston
                      route was still held by the South. The round-about route throug and
                      around Mobile would not have been necessary. It should have been a
                      pretty direct route. I have no idea how many troops were involved.
                      I would be interested in details of this movement.

                      Bill Bruner


                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Wasn't the movement of Bragg's command from Florida to AS Johnston
                      one
                      > of the first movements?
                      >
                      > James
                      >
                    • Stanley Balsky
                      It is interesting that all movements discussed so far are within the Confederate States by a Confederate Army I always read that the rail system in the south
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 27, 2006
                        It is interesting that all movements discussed so far
                        are within the Confederate States by a Confederate
                        Army I always read that the rail system in the south
                        was a disaster and it was easier to move by rail in
                        the North.Where there any large movements by rail by
                        Union forces ?
                        Stan

                        --- Bill Bruner <banbruner@...> wrote:

                        > I don't know. Do you have any specific information.
                        > I am assuming
                        > this movement would have been from Pensacola to
                        > Mississippi the RRs
                        > would have been pretty good at that time. The
                        > Memphis Charlston
                        > route was still held by the South. The round-about
                        > route throug and
                        > around Mobile would not have been necessary. It
                        > should have been a
                        > pretty direct route. I have no idea how many troops
                        > were involved.
                        > I would be interested in details of this movement.
                        >
                        > Bill Bruner
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "James W.
                        > Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Wasn't the movement of Bragg's command from
                        > Florida to AS Johnston
                        > one
                        > > of the first movements?
                        > >
                        > > James
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >




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                      • Bill Bruner
                        Damn. I was hoping this post would not have made it across the ether. It is totally wrong. Of Course Bragg would have to cross Momile Bay and proceed up the
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 27, 2006
                          Damn. I was hoping this post would not have made it across the
                          ether. It is totally wrong. Of Course Bragg would have to cross
                          Momile Bay and proceed up the Mobile and Ohio to the Southern Miss.
                          RR. The Memphis and Charleston is far to the North. Maybe I'm
                          still a Sophmore after all.

                          Bill Bruner


                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Bruner" <banbruner@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't know. Do you have any specific information. I am assuming
                          > this movement would have been from Pensacola to Mississippi the
                          RRs
                          > would have been pretty good at that time. The Memphis Charlston
                          > route was still held by the South. The round-about route throug
                          and
                          > around Mobile would not have been necessary. It should have been
                          a
                          > pretty direct route. I have no idea how many troops were
                          involved.
                          > I would be interested in details of this movement.
                          >
                          > Bill Bruner
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Wasn't the movement of Bragg's command from Florida to AS
                          Johnston
                          > one
                          > > of the first movements?
                          > >
                          > > James
                          > >
                          >
                        • Bill Bruner
                          Stanley, check out Mr. Keenes post just a little while back, he gives an excellent link with a good map portraying Hookers movement of 20,000 troops 3000
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 27, 2006
                            Stanley, check out Mr. Keenes post just a little while back, he
                            gives an excellent link with a good map portraying Hookers movement
                            of 20,000 troops 3000 animals, artillery, etc. over 1100 miles,
                            mostly on Northern roads from Northern Virginia to Chattanooga.

                            Bill Bruner


                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Stanley Balsky <balsky@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > It is interesting that all movements discussed so far
                            > are within the Confederate States by a Confederate
                            > Army I always read that the rail system in the south
                            > was a disaster and it was easier to move by rail in
                            > the North.Where there any large movements by rail by
                            > Union forces ?
                            > Stan
                            >
                            > --- Bill Bruner <banbruner@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > I don't know. Do you have any specific information.
                            > > I am assuming
                            > > this movement would have been from Pensacola to
                            > > Mississippi the RRs
                            > > would have been pretty good at that time. The
                            > > Memphis Charlston
                            > > route was still held by the South. The round-about
                            > > route throug and
                            > > around Mobile would not have been necessary. It
                            > > should have been a
                            > > pretty direct route. I have no idea how many troops
                            > > were involved.
                            > > I would be interested in details of this movement.
                            > >
                            > > Bill Bruner
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "James W.
                            > > Durney" <JWD2044@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Wasn't the movement of Bragg's command from
                            > > Florida to AS Johnston
                            > > one
                            > > > of the first movements?
                            > > >
                            > > > James
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Ronald black
                            Stan: Yes, the north used their railrioad systems extensively throughout the civil war. A good example was the movement of Hooker s troops west from Virginia
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 28, 2006
                              Stan:
                              Yes, the north used their railrioad systems extensively throughout the civil war.  A good example was the movement of Hooker's troops west from Virginia to Chattanooga and Burnsides to Knoxville.
                              Ron 
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 9:30 PM
                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Great RR Journeys

                              It is interesting that all movements discussed so far
                              are within the Confederate States by a Confederate
                              Army I always read that the rail system in the south
                              was a disaster and it was easier to move by rail in
                              the North.Where there any large movements by rail by
                              Union forces ?
                              Stan

                              --- Bill Bruner <banbruner@bellsouth .net> wrote:

                              > I don't know. Do you have any specific information.
                              > I am assuming
                              > this movement would have been from Pensacola to
                              > Mississippi the RRs
                              > would have been pretty good at that time. The
                              > Memphis Charlston
                              > route was still held by the South. The round-about
                              > route throug and
                              > around Mobile would not have been necessary. It
                              > should have been a
                              > pretty direct route. I have no idea how many troops
                              > were involved.
                              > I would be interested in details of this movement.
                              >
                              > Bill Bruner
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, "James W.
                              > Durney" <JWD2044@... >
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Wasn't the movement of Bragg's command from
                              > Florida to AS Johnston
                              > one
                              > > of the first movements?
                              > >
                              > > James
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >

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                            • Bill Bruner
                              Burnside to Knoxville? My maps show only one route to Knoxville and they are all Confderate roads. Bill Bruner ... the civil war. A good example was the
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 28, 2006
                                Burnside to Knoxville? My maps show only one route to Knoxville and
                                they are all Confderate roads.

                                Bill Bruner


                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald black" <rblack0981@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Stan:
                                > Yes, the north used their railrioad systems extensively throughout
                                the civil war. A good example was the movement of Hooker's troops
                                west from Virginia to Chattanooga and Burnsides to Knoxville.
                                > Ron
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Stanley Balsky
                                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 9:30 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Great RR Journeys
                                >
                                >
                                > It is interesting that all movements discussed so far
                                > are within the Confederate States by a Confederate
                                > Army I always read that the rail system in the south
                                > was a disaster and it was easier to move by rail in
                                > the North.Where there any large movements by rail by
                                > Union forces ?
                                > Stan

                                > __________________________________________________________
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                                > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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                                >
                                >
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                                >
                                >
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                                > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.17/553 - Release Date:
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                              • hank9174
                                ... The Northern transportation rail and water net was so robust and reliable that it seldom gets more than a mention. Generals thought nothing of zipping to
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 28, 2006
                                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald black" <rblack0981@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Stan:
                                  > Yes, the north used their railrioad systems extensively throughout
                                  > the civil war. A good example was the movement of Hooker's troops
                                  > west from Virginia to Chattanooga and Burnsides to Knoxville.

                                  The Northern transportation rail and water net was so robust and
                                  reliable that it seldom gets more than a mention.

                                  Generals thought nothing of zipping to another theater for a meeting.
                                  Sherman's schedule in early 1864 is nothing short of amazing. He
                                  visited Nashville, Memphis, Vicksburg, New Orleans and Cincinnati
                                  before starting the spring campaign at Chattanooga.

                                  Politicians had no compulsion on asking for entire regiments home to
                                  vote. In November 1864, there were more Indiana regiments home voting
                                  then there were in Georgia fighting (literary license here - there
                                  were many Indiana regiments ghting elsewhere as well ;) )

                                  Shucks, the movement of AJ Smith's division(s) from western Missouri
                                  to Nashville in December 1864 would have been considered a miracle in
                                  the CSA...


                                  HankC
                                • Bill Bruner
                                  A. J. Smith used steamers from St. Louis to Nashville. ... throughout ... troops ... meeting. ... to ... voting ... Missouri ... in
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 28, 2006
                                    A. J. Smith used steamers from St. Louis to Nashville.


                                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald black" <rblack0981@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Stan:
                                    > > Yes, the north used their railrioad systems extensively
                                    throughout
                                    > > the civil war. A good example was the movement of Hooker's
                                    troops
                                    > > west from Virginia to Chattanooga and Burnsides to Knoxville.
                                    >
                                    > The Northern transportation rail and water net was so robust and
                                    > reliable that it seldom gets more than a mention.
                                    >
                                    > Generals thought nothing of zipping to another theater for a
                                    meeting.
                                    > Sherman's schedule in early 1864 is nothing short of amazing. He
                                    > visited Nashville, Memphis, Vicksburg, New Orleans and Cincinnati
                                    > before starting the spring campaign at Chattanooga.
                                    >
                                    > Politicians had no compulsion on asking for entire regiments home
                                    to
                                    > vote. In November 1864, there were more Indiana regiments home
                                    voting
                                    > then there were in Georgia fighting (literary license here - there
                                    > were many Indiana regiments ghting elsewhere as well ;) )
                                    >
                                    > Shucks, the movement of AJ Smith's division(s) from western
                                    Missouri
                                    > to Nashville in December 1864 would have been considered a miracle
                                    in
                                    > the CSA...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > HankC
                                    >
                                  • James W. Durney
                                    ... one ... I took this from Stanley Horn s book. He transfered 10,000 men & equipment from Pensacola & Mobile to Corinth. Nothinf is mentioned about the
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 30, 2006
                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Wasn't the movement of Bragg's command from Florida to AS Johnston
                                      one
                                      > of the first movements?
                                      >
                                      > James
                                      >

                                      I took this from Stanley Horn's book.

                                      He transfered 10,000 men & equipment from Pensacola & Mobile to
                                      Corinth. Nothinf is mentioned about the route but my understanding is
                                      this is one of the first large rail movements of troops in the ACW.

                                      I did not find anything about this in Connelly.

                                      James
                                    • Bill Bruner
                                      ... Johnston ... understanding is Actually, I think this movement was a bit of dress rehearsal for Btagg s later, larger movement, in the opposite direction,
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 1, 2006
                                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "James W. Durney" <JWD2044@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Wasn't the movement of Bragg's command from Florida to AS
                                        Johnston
                                        > one
                                        > > of the first movements?
                                        > >
                                        > > James
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > I took this from Stanley Horn's book.
                                        >
                                        > He transfered 10,000 men & equipment from Pensacola & Mobile to
                                        > Corinth. Nothinf is mentioned about the route but my
                                        understanding is


                                        Actually, I think this movement was a bit of dress rehearsal for
                                        Btagg's later, larger movement, in the opposite direction, back to
                                        Chattanooga. The route would most certainly have been up the
                                        Alabama and Fla. of Fla. from Pensacola to Pollard, then west on the
                                        newly completed Mobile and Great Northern. This is the tricky part,
                                        where a gap existed between the Tensas River and Mobile, that needed
                                        to be negotiated by boat or march to Mobile and the Mobile and Ohio
                                        RR and thence Northward, by a fairly through route, to Corinth.

                                        Bill Bruner


                                        > this is one of the first large rail movements of troops in the ACW.
                                        >
                                        > I did not find anything about this in Connelly.
                                        >
                                        > James
                                        >
                                      • gnrljejohnston
                                        ... This is the tricky part, ... Another possibility was to travel by boat from Mobile up pass Quitman, MS to Meridian, MS which was a RR terminal as well.
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 2, 2006
                                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Bruner" <banbruner@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >

                                          This is the tricky part,
                                          > where a gap existed between the Tensas River and Mobile, that needed
                                          > to be negotiated by boat or march to Mobile and the Mobile and Ohio
                                          > RR and thence Northward, by a fairly through route, to Corinth.
                                          >
                                          > Bill Bruner

                                          Another possibility was to travel by boat from Mobile up pass Quitman,
                                          MS to Meridian, MS which was a RR terminal as well. From there the
                                          line goes to Atlanta. I forget the name of the river, but it was used
                                          by Confederates to transport supplies and wounded to the Texas Hospital
                                          in Quitman.

                                          JEJ
                                        • Bill Bruner
                                          ... needed ... Ohio ... Quitman, ... the ... used ... Hospital ... On closer examination of maps availabe it seems clear that the route would be from Pensacola
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 2, 2006
                                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "gnrljejohnston"
                                            <GnrlJEJohnston@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Bruner" <banbruner@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > This is the tricky part,
                                            > > where a gap existed between the Tensas River and Mobile, that
                                            needed
                                            > > to be negotiated by boat or march to Mobile and the Mobile and
                                            Ohio
                                            > > RR and thence Northward, by a fairly through route, to Corinth.
                                            > >
                                            > > Bill Bruner
                                            >
                                            > Another possibility was to travel by boat from Mobile up pass
                                            Quitman,
                                            > MS to Meridian, MS which was a RR terminal as well. From there
                                            the
                                            > line goes to Atlanta. I forget the name of the river, but it was
                                            used
                                            > by Confederates to transport supplies and wounded to the Texas
                                            Hospital
                                            > in Quitman.
                                            >
                                            > JEJ

                                            On closer examination of maps availabe it seems clear that the route
                                            would be from Pensacola on the Al. and Fla of Fla rr to Pollard then
                                            West to Tensas, by way of the Mobile and Great Northern rr. Tensas
                                            was the terminus of this rr at the Alabama river.

                                            They would board boats south down the Alabama River to Mobile bay (a
                                            very short distance) and then across the bay to Mobile (a total
                                            distance of about thirty miles from the terminus at Tensas). From
                                            Mobile it looks like a straight shot of 134 miles north to Meridian
                                            and on to Corinth.

                                            I think the river you were trying to recall was the Tombigbee.

                                            Bill Bruner
                                          • gnrljejohnston
                                            ... That s the problem of getting old Bill. You have those Senior Moments. :-) As many times I have been around and on that river, you would think that I at
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 2, 2006
                                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Bruner" <banbruner@...>

                                              > I think the river you were trying to recall was the Tombigbee.
                                              >
                                              > Bill Bruner

                                              That's the problem of getting old Bill. You have those Senior
                                              Moments. :-) As many times I have been around and on that river, you
                                              would think that I at least would remember its name. Shame on me. That
                                              river was used by packet boats and one of the important routes to
                                              transport logistics from Mobile to Meridian, and from there to Atlanta
                                              and Corinth.

                                              JEJ
                                              >
                                            • Bill Bruner
                                              ... you ... That ... Atlanta ... The more you know the more there is to forget. The price of knowledge is eternal review Bill Bruner
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 2, 2006
                                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "gnrljejohnston"
                                                <GnrlJEJohnston@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Bruner" <banbruner@>
                                                >
                                                > > I think the river you were trying to recall was the Tombigbee.
                                                > >
                                                > > Bill Bruner
                                                >
                                                > That's the problem of getting old Bill. You have those Senior
                                                > Moments. :-) As many times I have been around and on that river,
                                                you
                                                > would think that I at least would remember its name. Shame on me.
                                                That
                                                > river was used by packet boats and one of the important routes to
                                                > transport logistics from Mobile to Meridian, and from there to
                                                Atlanta
                                                > and Corinth.
                                                >
                                                > JEJ

                                                The more you know the more there is to forget.

                                                "The price of knowledge is eternal review"

                                                Bill Bruner
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • Ask Me
                                                I m new to the group and am just begining to follow his topic: This post struck a chord with me. Here is a short list which might be of some use. Book: Mars
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 19, 2006
                                                  I'm new to the group and am just begining to follow his topic:

                                                  This post struck a chord with me. Here is a short list which might be
                                                  of some use.

                                                  Book: Mars Gets New Chariots - Lt Col Alan R Koenig Amazon.com -
                                                  31.95.Info on Amazon suggests Col Koenig teaches at U Nebraska.

                                                  Book: The Railroads of the Confederacy - Robert Block 50 year old
                                                  book,

                                                  Web: http://www-csa-railroads.com/index.html
                                                  Web: http://geocites.com/Yosemite/Trails/9401/civilwar.html
                                                  Web: http://www.shohla.com/trainwreck
                                                  Web: http://www.mtsu.edu/~cwtech/railroads/RRHOME.htm

                                                  Good luck and keep us posted -

                                                  Doug
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