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Re: The Beginning of the End

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  • Carl Williams
    How much did Jeff Davis have to do with this bone-headed decision, is what I d like to know. Same flawed thinking that led to firing on Sumter.
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 4, 2006
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      How much did Jeff Davis have to do with this bone-headed decision, is
      what I'd like to know.
      Same flawed thinking that led to firing on Sumter.

      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "gnrljejohnston"
      <GnrlJEJohnston@...> wrote:
      >
      > Today, September 3rd is the day that was the beginning of the end of
      > the Confederacy. For it was on this date in 1861, Gideon Pillow under
      > orders from Leonidas Polk, set up batteries and troops at Columbia,
      > KY. In doing so, he violated Kentucky's self stated neutrality. Up to
      > that time, KY was a buffer zone between Union forces to the North and
      > Confederate forces in Tennessee. With neutrality broken, Union forces
      > were able to use the Tennessee River and the Cumberland River as
      > highways to move their troops. The fall of the Confederate forts Henry
      > and Donelson, and the battle of Shiloh on these rivers thus added
      > another nail to the Confederacy's coffin. The rest is history.
      >
      > JEJ
      >
    • keeno2@aol.com
      In a message dated 9/4/2006 11:28:23 AM Central Daylight Time, carlw4514@yahoo.com writes: How much did Jeff Davis have to do with this bone-headed decision,
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 4, 2006
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        In a message dated 9/4/2006 11:28:23 AM Central Daylight Time, carlw4514@... writes:
        How much did Jeff Davis have to do with this bone-headed decision, is what I'd like to know. Same flawed thinking that led to firing on Sumter.
        There would appear to be quite a number of bone-headed decisions/assumptions goin' on down there in '61. Expecting A.S. Johnston to cover all that territory is just one. Driving Kentucky off the fence is another (If they hadn't done it, the U.S. would have had to sieze Paducah and tip Kentucky off the other side.). Which is not to say that Lincoln's people didn't do some bone-headed things, but it seems that the Confederate ones had farther-reaching consequences.
         
        Just a thought.
        Ken
      • Ron Black
        ... JEJ: I agree with the results of Polk s occupation of Columbus KY as you mention them but the reasons why this occurred were much more extensive. It is
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 4, 2006
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          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "gnrljejohnston"
          <GnrlJEJohnston@...> wrote:
          >
          > Today, September 3rd is the day that was the beginning of the end of
          > the Confederacy. For it was on this date in 1861, Gideon Pillow under
          > orders from Leonidas Polk, set up batteries and troops at Columbia,
          > KY. In doing so, he violated Kentucky's self stated neutrality. Up to
          > that time, KY was a buffer zone between Union forces to the North and
          > Confederate forces in Tennessee. With neutrality broken, Union forces
          > were able to use the Tennessee River and the Cumberland River as
          > highways to move their troops. The fall of the Confederate forts Henry
          > and Donelson, and the battle of Shiloh on these rivers thus added
          > another nail to the Confederacy's coffin. The rest is history.
          >
          > JEJ
          >

          JEJ:

          I agree with the results of Polk's occupation of Columbus KY as you
          mention them but the reasons why this occurred were much more extensive.
          It is true the confederates made a very bad move as they got most of the
          blame for violating KY neutrality. The federal goverment was just as
          guilty if not greater as they had been sending arms into KY and been
          openily recruiting within the state while setting up camps for federal
          troops in KY ( Camp Dick Robinson and others ). The neutrality of KY
          was of greater benefit to the confederates as it protected the long
          boundry between TN and KY and impeded federals troop movements. The
          confederate forces should have been doing everything in their power to
          preserve the state of neutrality of KY and entering the state was not
          the thing to do. Pressure applied by the federals and the expected
          arrival of General Albert S. Johnston caused the rebels forces to move
          into KY, such as Polk at Columbus, Zollicofer at Cumberland Gap and
          Cumberland Ford and followed by Buckner at Bowling Green. These moves
          established the forward confederate line in KY composed of too few
          troops which Johnston concealed for sometime by a bold display of troops
          which prevented the federals realizing how few they actually were.

          I'm disappointed of how too few of CW students realize the strategic
          results from these early movements in the civil war. These early
          movements and battles deserve much more study, reading and appreciation.

          Question for everyone. Why did the rebel forces under Zollicofer not
          continue their movements up the Wilderness road from Cumberland Gap
          towards London and Crab Orchard in KY?

          Ron
        • rbaquero@netzero.net
          Cool inf JEJ....something new to me , thanks , here in Florida I found the Confederacy still alive and well ....:-). -raul
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 5, 2006
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            Cool inf JEJ....something new to me , thanks , here in Florida I found the Confederacy still alive and well ....:-).

            -raul

          • Dan G
            Good Evening: Several months ago there was some discussion about a group from this forum meeting at Shiloh this fall.. If I recall we were talking about the
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 5, 2006
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              Good Evening:
               
              Several months ago there was some discussion about a group from this forum meeting at Shiloh this fall.. If I recall we were talking about the last weekend of October..  Is there any interest for doing this??  If so, I would like to make at least some tenative plans so I can schedule the time off ..
              Hope to see some of you there.
              Dan Graff


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            • nickrelee@aol.com
              I d be interested. I may be in Tennessee in late October for something else and I was trying to think of an excuse to swing over to Shiloh, this would be a
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 5, 2006
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                I'd be interested.  I may be in Tennessee in late October for something else and I was trying to think of an excuse to swing over to Shiloh, this would be a perfect excuse.
                --Nick Kurtz
                 
                In a message dated 9/5/2006 3:55:19 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dan6764@... writes:
                Good Evening:
                 
                Several months ago there was some discussion about a group from this forum meeting at Shiloh this fall.. If I recall we were talking about the last weekend of October..  Is there any interest for doing this??  If so, I would like to make at least some tenative plans so I can schedule the time off ..
                Hope to see some of you there.
                Dan Graff
                 
              • keeno2@aol.com
                In a message dated 9/5/2006 4:55:18 PM Central Daylight Time, dan6764@yahoo.com writes: Several months ago there was some discussion about a group from this
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 6, 2006
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                  In a message dated 9/5/2006 4:55:18 PM Central Daylight Time, dan6764@... writes:
                  Several months ago there was some discussion about a group from this forum meeting at Shiloh this fall.. If I recall we were talking about the last weekend of October..  Is there any interest for doing this??
                  I'll express interest. Let's at least pick a weekend and see if there is any interest. Once we have a weekend, I can post in another forum where there may be some interest. Sister board, civilwarinteractive.com, has a number of locals, as well.
                  Ken
                • Dan G
                  Right now the last weekend of October is still fine with me.. But I am flexible couple weekends either way.. Go ahead and do the post and let s see what
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 6, 2006
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                    Right now the last weekend of October is still fine with me..  But I am flexible couple weekends either way..   Go ahead and do the post and let's see what happens
                    Your Servant
                    Dan Graff

                    keeno2@... wrote:
                    In a message dated 9/5/2006 4:55:18 PM Central Daylight Time, dan6764@yahoo. com writes:
                    Several months ago there was some discussion about a group from this forum meeting at Shiloh this fall.. If I recall we were talking about the last weekend of October..  Is there any interest for doing this??
                    I'll express interest. Let's at least pick a weekend and see if there is any interest. Once we have a weekend, I can post in another forum where there may be some interest. Sister board, civilwarinteractive .com, has a number of locals, as well.
                    Ken


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                  • Tom Mix
                    The last weekend of Oct. sounds good to me too. I can t make any promises but I sure would like to attend such a great gathering. It should be tons of fun and
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 6, 2006
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                      The last weekend of Oct. sounds good to me too. I can’t make any promises but I sure would like to attend such a great gathering. It should be tons of fun and Shiloh is by far my favorite place to visit.

                      Tom

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan G
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 10:14 AM
                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Shiloh Question

                       

                      Right now the last weekend of October is still fine with me..  But I am flexible couple weekends either way..   Go ahead and do the post and let's see what happens

                      Your Servant

                      Dan Graff

                      keeno2@... wrote:

                      In a message dated 9/5/2006 4:55:18 PM Central Daylight Time, dan6764@yahoo. com writes:

                      Several months ago there was some discussion about a group from this forum meeting at Shiloh this fall.. If I recall we were talking about the last weekend of October..  Is there any interest for doing this??

                      I'll express interest. Let's at least pick a weekend and see if there is any interest. Once we have a weekend, I can post in another forum where there may be some interest. Sister board, civilwarinteractive .com, has a number of locals, as well.

                      Ken

                       

                       


                      Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com

                    • gnrljejohnston
                      ... The Secretary of War ordered Polk and Pillow to withdraw from Columbus and Kentucky immediately, but Davis cancelled that order. Davis was also advised
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 6, 2006
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                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Williams" <carlw4514@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > How much did Jeff Davis have to do with this bone-headed decision, is
                        > what I'd like to know.
                        > Same flawed thinking that led to firing on Sumter.

                        The Secretary of War ordered Polk and Pillow to withdraw from Columbus
                        and Kentucky immediately, but Davis cancelled that order. Davis was
                        also advised not to fire on Sumter but then again, he went against the
                        advice. Your description of him as a bone head is very apropo.

                        JEJ
                      • gnrljejohnston
                        ... extensive. ... the ... Ron, The Confederates were also openly recruiting within the state. That was one of Sherman s concerns when he was still working
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 6, 2006
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                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Black" <rblack0981@...> wrote:

                          > I agree with the results of Polk's occupation of Columbus KY as you
                          > mention them but the reasons why this occurred were much more
                          extensive.
                          > It is true the confederates made a very bad move as they got most of
                          the
                          > blame for violating KY neutrality. The federal goverment was just as
                          > guilty if not greater as they had been sending arms into KY and been
                          > openily recruiting within the state while setting up camps for federal
                          > troops in KY ( Camp Dick Robinson and others ).
                          >

                          Ron,
                          The Confederates were also openly recruiting within the state. That
                          was one of Sherman's concerns when he was still working under
                          Anderson. The Zollicoffer and Buckner were signing up more recruits
                          than what the Union forces were.. I guess the Union recruiters did not
                          know how to make grits. :-)

                          JEJ
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