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[civilwarwest] Rosecrans After Chickamauga

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  • The Coys
    Last night in the chatroom we had a little discussion on Rosecrans after the Battle of Chickamauga. Now y all know I m a tad bit bias toward Wiliam S.
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 19, 1999
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      Last night in the chatroom we had a little discussion on
      Rosecrans after the Battle of Chickamauga. Now y'all know I'm a
      tad bit bias toward Wiliam S. Rosecrans but I will provide some
      info that I have.

      This is from an article that appeared in the 'The Washington
      Times' on 11-07-1998. It is written by David G. Moore and Conn F.
      Sheehan who are working on a new biography of Ol Rosey. Thanks to
      Susannah for thinking of me and sending the article it my way.

      Kevin S. Coy

      <Several pages and paragraphs snipped>

      REPLACED BY GRANT

      After the fight, (Chickamauga) Stanton decided to reinforce
      Rosecrans by sending Gen. Joseph Hooker from the Army of the
      Potomac. Rosecrans developed a plan to reopen communications
      with his base. With Bragg's army severely wounded and Union
      reinforcements coming from the East and the West, the future of
      Rosecrans' army was not really in doubt. The only question was
      whether Rosecrans would still be at its head. The answer, not
      surprisingly, was no. Rosecrans was replaced on Oct. 20, 1863,
      by his old nemesis, Grant.

      The conventional understanding is that Rosecrans panicked at
      Chickamauga and the was "stunned like a duck hit on the head," as
      Lincoln put it. Then he was replaced by Grant, who immediately
      took charge, reopened communications and eventually defeated
      Bragg at Missionary Ridge. But it was Rosecrans who formulated a
      plan to reopen the supply line and had authorized the
      construction of pontoons and steamboats to carry it out.

      As for Missionary Ridge, it was the Army of the Cumberland -
      an army disparaged by Grant and Sherman - that seized the
      initiative after Sherman had been repulsed by Gen. Patrick
      Cleburne. It charged up the ridge without orers and won the day.

      Missionary Ridge was a battle won by soldiers, not generals -
      and those men were the soldiers of the departed Rosecrans.

      <more snipped>

      Not bad not one *ptooey*

      Kevin S. Coy
    • The Coys
      Last night in the chatroom we had a little discussion on Rosecrans after the Battle of Chickamauga. Now y all know I m a tad bit bias toward Wiliam S.
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 19, 1999
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        Last night in the chatroom we had a little discussion on
        Rosecrans after the Battle of Chickamauga. Now y'all know I'm a
        tad bit bias toward Wiliam S. Rosecrans but I will provide some
        info that I have.

        This is from an article that appeared in the 'The Washington
        Times' on 11-07-1998. It is written by David G. Moore and Conn F.
        Sheehan who are working on a new biography of Ol Rosey. Thanks to
        Susannah for thinking of me and sending the article it my way.

        Kevin S. Coy

        <Several pages and paragraphs snipped>

        REPLACED BY GRANT

        After the fight, (Chickamauga) Stanton decided to reinforce
        Rosecrans by sending Gen. Joseph Hooker from the Army of the
        Potomac. Rosecrans developed a plan to reopen communications
        with his base. With Bragg's army severely wounded and Union
        reinforcements coming from the East and the West, the future of
        Rosecrans' army was not really in doubt. The only question was
        whether Rosecrans would still be at its head. The answer, not
        surprisingly, was no. Rosecrans was replaced on Oct. 20, 1863,
        by his old nemesis, Grant.

        The conventional understanding is that Rosecrans panicked at
        Chickamauga and the was "stunned like a duck hit on the head," as
        Lincoln put it. Then he was replaced by Grant, who immediately
        took charge, reopened communications and eventually defeated
        Bragg at Missionary Ridge. But it was Rosecrans who formulated a
        plan to reopen the supply line and had authorized the
        construction of pontoons and steamboats to carry it out.

        As for Missionary Ridge, it was the Army of the Cumberland -
        an army disparaged by Grant and Sherman - that seized the
        initiative after Sherman had been repulsed by Gen. Patrick
        Cleburne. It charged up the ridge without orers and won the day.

        Missionary Ridge was a battle won by soldiers, not generals -
        and those men were the soldiers of the departed Rosecrans.

        <more snipped>

        Not bad not one *ptooey*

        Kevin S. Coy
      • Dick Weeks
        ... Not being a huge fan of either ole Rosey or Bragg maybe I can make this post without letting too much of my bias show :-) In my opinion only, despite
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 19, 1999
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          The Coys wrote:
          >
          > Last night in the chatroom we had a little discussion on
          > Rosecrans after the Battle of Chickamauga. Now y'all know I'm a
          > tad bit bias toward Wiliam S. Rosecrans but I will provide some
          > info that I have.
          >
          > This is from an article that appeared in the 'The Washington
          > Times' on 11-07-1998. It is written by David G. Moore and Conn F.
          > Sheehan who are working on a new biography of Ol Rosey. Thanks to
          > Susannah for thinking of me and sending the article it my way.
          >
          > Kevin S. Coy
          >
          Not being a huge fan of either ole Rosey or Bragg maybe I can make this
          post without letting too much of my bias show :-) In my opinion only,
          despite Thomas's heroic stand, Chickamauga was a clear Confederate
          victory that was not followed up. This was Bragg's fault. In hind sight
          I suspect Rosey was most grateful for that. Now the battle of
          Chickamauga was over on the evening of Sept. 20 and to the best of my
          knowledge Missionary Ridge was not carried until Nov. 25. I don't want
          to take any glory away from the brave men that took that ridge, but had
          the thing been fortified properly, there was not an army in the field,
          from either side, that could have carried that ridge. Bragg had all the
          time in the world to either finish the action at Chattanooga or at least
          fortify his position so as to stop any Federal advance from there.
          Again this wasn't brilliance on the Federals part, it was stupidity on
          the part of the Confederates. If there was a worse general, in either
          army, than Braxton Bragg I don't know who it was.

          I hope someone with a lot more knowledge than I do about this jumps in.
          I have "Mountains Touched By Fire" but haven't read it yet. I guess I
          need to do that in order to fully understand this part of the war.

          I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
          Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
          http://www.civilwarhome.com
        • Dick Weeks
          ... Not being a huge fan of either ole Rosey or Bragg maybe I can make this post without letting too much of my bias show :-) In my opinion only, despite
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 19, 1999
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            The Coys wrote:
            >
            > Last night in the chatroom we had a little discussion on
            > Rosecrans after the Battle of Chickamauga. Now y'all know I'm a
            > tad bit bias toward Wiliam S. Rosecrans but I will provide some
            > info that I have.
            >
            > This is from an article that appeared in the 'The Washington
            > Times' on 11-07-1998. It is written by David G. Moore and Conn F.
            > Sheehan who are working on a new biography of Ol Rosey. Thanks to
            > Susannah for thinking of me and sending the article it my way.
            >
            > Kevin S. Coy
            >
            Not being a huge fan of either ole Rosey or Bragg maybe I can make this
            post without letting too much of my bias show :-) In my opinion only,
            despite Thomas's heroic stand, Chickamauga was a clear Confederate
            victory that was not followed up. This was Bragg's fault. In hind sight
            I suspect Rosey was most grateful for that. Now the battle of
            Chickamauga was over on the evening of Sept. 20 and to the best of my
            knowledge Missionary Ridge was not carried until Nov. 25. I don't want
            to take any glory away from the brave men that took that ridge, but had
            the thing been fortified properly, there was not an army in the field,
            from either side, that could have carried that ridge. Bragg had all the
            time in the world to either finish the action at Chattanooga or at least
            fortify his position so as to stop any Federal advance from there.
            Again this wasn't brilliance on the Federals part, it was stupidity on
            the part of the Confederates. If there was a worse general, in either
            army, than Braxton Bragg I don't know who it was.

            I hope someone with a lot more knowledge than I do about this jumps in.
            I have "Mountains Touched By Fire" but haven't read it yet. I guess I
            need to do that in order to fully understand this part of the war.

            I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
            Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
            http://www.civilwarhome.com
          • The Coys
            ... Dick, I m not so sure that one can place the whole blame of the CSA loss of Missionary Ridge on Bragg. The Yankees did have something to do with it. :)
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 19, 1999
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              Dick Weeks wrote:

              > Not being a huge fan of either ole Rosey or Bragg maybe I can make this
              > post without letting too much of my bias show :-) In my opinion only,
              > despite Thomas's heroic stand, Chickamauga was a clear Confederate
              > victory that was not followed up. This was Bragg's fault. In hind sight
              > I suspect Rosey was most grateful for that. Now the battle of
              > Chickamauga was over on the evening of Sept. 20 and to the best of my
              > knowledge Missionary Ridge was not carried until Nov. 25. I don't want
              > to take any glory away from the brave men that took that ridge, but had
              > the thing been fortified properly, there was not an army in the field,
              > from either side, that could have carried that ridge. Bragg had all the
              > time in the world to either finish the action at Chattanooga or at least
              > fortify his position so as to stop any Federal advance from there.
              > Again this wasn't brilliance on the Federals part, it was stupidity on
              > the part of the Confederates. If there was a worse general, in either
              > army, than Braxton Bragg I don't know who it was.
              >
              > I hope someone with a lot more knowledge than I do about this jumps in.
              > I have "Mountains Touched By Fire" but haven't read it yet. I guess I
              > need to do that in order to fully understand this part of the war.
              >
              > I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
              > Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
              > http://www.civilwarhome.com

              Dick,
              I'm not so sure that one can place the whole blame of the CSA loss of
              Missionary Ridge on Bragg. The Yankees did have something to do with it. :)

              Chickamauga was one of the few battles in the war that the CSA forces
              outnumbered the Federal forces. This was because Longstreet's Corps
              reinforced the Army of Tennessee. After the battle (Chickamauga) Longstreet
              was eventually sent to Knoxville. Thus, Bragg had, once again, only his
              AoT. Meanwhile, the Feds were getting the 11th and 12th Corps from the AotP,
              the 15th and 17th Corps from the AotM, and the 9th Corps was in Knoxville.
              Not to mention the three corps of the AoC. Bragg was once again greatly
              outnumbered. With these odds, I dont think anyone could have held Missionary
              Ridge. Bragg had his problems....with his subordinates....but he didn't
              stand a chance. IMHO. :)

              Respectfully,

              Kevin S. Coy
            • The Coys
              ... Dick, I m not so sure that one can place the whole blame of the CSA loss of Missionary Ridge on Bragg. The Yankees did have something to do with it. :)
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 19, 1999
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                Dick Weeks wrote:

                > Not being a huge fan of either ole Rosey or Bragg maybe I can make this
                > post without letting too much of my bias show :-) In my opinion only,
                > despite Thomas's heroic stand, Chickamauga was a clear Confederate
                > victory that was not followed up. This was Bragg's fault. In hind sight
                > I suspect Rosey was most grateful for that. Now the battle of
                > Chickamauga was over on the evening of Sept. 20 and to the best of my
                > knowledge Missionary Ridge was not carried until Nov. 25. I don't want
                > to take any glory away from the brave men that took that ridge, but had
                > the thing been fortified properly, there was not an army in the field,
                > from either side, that could have carried that ridge. Bragg had all the
                > time in the world to either finish the action at Chattanooga or at least
                > fortify his position so as to stop any Federal advance from there.
                > Again this wasn't brilliance on the Federals part, it was stupidity on
                > the part of the Confederates. If there was a worse general, in either
                > army, than Braxton Bragg I don't know who it was.
                >
                > I hope someone with a lot more knowledge than I do about this jumps in.
                > I have "Mountains Touched By Fire" but haven't read it yet. I guess I
                > need to do that in order to fully understand this part of the war.
                >
                > I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                > Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                > http://www.civilwarhome.com

                Dick,
                I'm not so sure that one can place the whole blame of the CSA loss of
                Missionary Ridge on Bragg. The Yankees did have something to do with it. :)

                Chickamauga was one of the few battles in the war that the CSA forces
                outnumbered the Federal forces. This was because Longstreet's Corps
                reinforced the Army of Tennessee. After the battle (Chickamauga) Longstreet
                was eventually sent to Knoxville. Thus, Bragg had, once again, only his
                AoT. Meanwhile, the Feds were getting the 11th and 12th Corps from the AotP,
                the 15th and 17th Corps from the AotM, and the 9th Corps was in Knoxville.
                Not to mention the three corps of the AoC. Bragg was once again greatly
                outnumbered. With these odds, I dont think anyone could have held Missionary
                Ridge. Bragg had his problems....with his subordinates....but he didn't
                stand a chance. IMHO. :)

                Respectfully,

                Kevin S. Coy
              • D. W. Plezia
                the coys wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=42 snips ... his ... the AotP, ... Knoxville. ...
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 30, 2000
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                  the coys <thecoy-@...> wrote:
                  original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=42

                  snips

                  Mr. Coy writes:

                  > After the battle (Chickamauga) Longstreet
                  > was eventually sent to Knoxville. Thus, Bragg had, once again, only
                  his
                  > AoT. Meanwhile, the Feds were getting the 11th and 12th Corps from
                  the AotP,
                  > the 15th and 17th Corps from the AotM, and the 9th Corps was in
                  Knoxville.
                  > Not to mention the three corps of the AoC. Bragg was once again
                  greatly
                  > outnumbered. With these odds, I dont think anyone could have held
                  Missionary
                  > Ridge. Bragg had his problems....with his subordinates....but he
                  didn't
                  > stand a chance. IMHO. :)
                  >
                  > Respectfully,
                  >
                  > Kevin S. Coy

                  I don't think that Bragg was badly outnumbered at the point of assault
                  on Missionary Ridge! In total, Bragg had about 36,000 to Grant's
                  60,000. But Thomas's attacking force at the time numbered ~ 20,000.
                  Three of his divisions plus his cavalry were diddling around with
                  Sherman (Cozzens has a very good description of the lack of action and
                  Sherman's blundering in "The Shipwreck of Their Hopes", pp 241- 243,
                  and Cleburne was tying him up with a couple of brigades. Two others
                  were doing good service with Hooker on the Union right. He had four
                  divisions left to assault. Thomas was also deployed to cover
                  Chattanooga and had no reserves. Francis McKinney in "Education in
                  Violence", claims that Bragg had 18,000 men to cover an equal amount in
                  Thomas's assaulting forces. Somewhere I read that a defending force
                  could defend successsfully again a force twice it's size. Look at
                  Thomas at Chickamauga. There, I think, the numbers were about 3 to 1
                  in favor of Bragg.

                  Bragg (according to Couzzens, had around 16,000 men, McDonough claims
                  around 14,000 in Breckenridge's Corps and 18,000 in Hardee's,
                  "Chattanooga - Death Grip on the Confederacy"), McKinny claims they
                  were equal.

                  Breckenridge was in charge of the most of the center that was assaulted
                  and made his dispositions poorly. He had no reserves in supporting
                  distance. But he had some help from Hardee. Bragg's misfortune was
                  that he only had one Cleburne and one Hardee and let Breckenridge talk
                  him into staying.

                  So, IMHO, the forces were about equal. Poor management was more to
                  blame than troop counts.
                • D. W. Plezia
                  the coys wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=42 snips ... his ... the AotP, ... Knoxville. ...
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 30, 2000
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                    the coys <thecoy-@...> wrote:
                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=42

                    snips

                    Mr. Coy writes:

                    > After the battle (Chickamauga) Longstreet
                    > was eventually sent to Knoxville. Thus, Bragg had, once again, only
                    his
                    > AoT. Meanwhile, the Feds were getting the 11th and 12th Corps from
                    the AotP,
                    > the 15th and 17th Corps from the AotM, and the 9th Corps was in
                    Knoxville.
                    > Not to mention the three corps of the AoC. Bragg was once again
                    greatly
                    > outnumbered. With these odds, I dont think anyone could have held
                    Missionary
                    > Ridge. Bragg had his problems....with his subordinates....but he
                    didn't
                    > stand a chance. IMHO. :)
                    >
                    > Respectfully,
                    >
                    > Kevin S. Coy

                    I don't think that Bragg was badly outnumbered at the point of assault
                    on Missionary Ridge! In total, Bragg had about 36,000 to Grant's
                    60,000. But Thomas's attacking force at the time numbered ~ 20,000.
                    Three of his divisions plus his cavalry were diddling around with
                    Sherman (Cozzens has a very good description of the lack of action and
                    Sherman's blundering in "The Shipwreck of Their Hopes", pp 241- 243,
                    and Cleburne was tying him up with a couple of brigades. Two others
                    were doing good service with Hooker on the Union right. He had four
                    divisions left to assault. Thomas was also deployed to cover
                    Chattanooga and had no reserves. Francis McKinney in "Education in
                    Violence", claims that Bragg had 18,000 men to cover an equal amount in
                    Thomas's assaulting forces. Somewhere I read that a defending force
                    could defend successsfully again a force twice it's size. Look at
                    Thomas at Chickamauga. There, I think, the numbers were about 3 to 1
                    in favor of Bragg.

                    Bragg (according to Couzzens, had around 16,000 men, McDonough claims
                    around 14,000 in Breckenridge's Corps and 18,000 in Hardee's,
                    "Chattanooga - Death Grip on the Confederacy"), McKinny claims they
                    were equal.

                    Breckenridge was in charge of the most of the center that was assaulted
                    and made his dispositions poorly. He had no reserves in supporting
                    distance. But he had some help from Hardee. Bragg's misfortune was
                    that he only had one Cleburne and one Hardee and let Breckenridge talk
                    him into staying.

                    So, IMHO, the forces were about equal. Poor management was more to
                    blame than troop counts.
                  • D. W. Plezia
                    dick weeks wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=41 ... snips ... You might look at Sherman s
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 30, 2000
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                      dick weeks <shotgu-@...> wrote:
                      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=41
                      > The Coys wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Last night in the chatroom we had a little discussion on
                      > > Rosecrans after the Battle of Chickamauga. Now y'all know I'm a
                      > > tad bit bias toward Wiliam S. Rosecrans but I will provide some
                      > > info that I have.

                      snips

                      > If there was a worse general, in either
                      > army, than Braxton Bragg I don't know who it was.

                      You might look at Sherman's total record!

                      Don Plezia
                      >
                      > I hope someone with a lot more knowledge than I do about this jumps
                      in.
                      > I have "Mountains Touched By Fire" but haven't read it yet. I guess I
                      > need to do that in order to fully understand this part of the war.
                      >
                      > I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                      > Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                      > http://www.civilwarhome.com
                    • D. W. Plezia
                      dick weeks wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=41 ... snips ... You might look at Sherman s
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jan 30, 2000
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                        dick weeks <shotgu-@...> wrote:
                        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/civilwarwest/?start=41
                        > The Coys wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Last night in the chatroom we had a little discussion on
                        > > Rosecrans after the Battle of Chickamauga. Now y'all know I'm a
                        > > tad bit bias toward Wiliam S. Rosecrans but I will provide some
                        > > info that I have.

                        snips

                        > If there was a worse general, in either
                        > army, than Braxton Bragg I don't know who it was.

                        You might look at Sherman's total record!

                        Don Plezia
                        >
                        > I hope someone with a lot more knowledge than I do about this jumps
                        in.
                        > I have "Mountains Touched By Fire" but haven't read it yet. I guess I
                        > need to do that in order to fully understand this part of the war.
                        >
                        > I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                        > Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                        > http://www.civilwarhome.com
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