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RE: [civilwarwest] Digest Number 290

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  • Holly Barnes
    unsubscribe me please. ty ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com Sent: March 23, 2001 9:52:12 AM GMT Subject: [civilwarwest] Digest Number 290 There are 16
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 23, 2001
      unsubscribe me please. ty

      ------Original Message------
      From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: March 23, 2001 9:52:12 AM GMT
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Digest Number 290



      There are 16 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Re: Perryville
      From: ppcattyrph@...
      2. Muster 2001
      From: "Jack Ehmer" <jackehmer123@...>
      3. Re: Muster 2001
      From: LWhite64@...
      4. Re: Muster 2001
      From: josepharose@...
      5. Re: Muster 2001
      From: "Jack Ehmer" <jackehmer123@...>
      6. Re: Re: Muster 2001
      From: "Robert Taubman" <rtaubman@...>
      7. Re: Muster 2001
      From: "P. B. Jones" <jones@...>
      8. Re: Re: Muster 2001
      From: FLYNSWEDE@...
      9. Re: Muster 2001
      From: "Jack Ehmer" <jackehmer123@...>
      10. Missionary Ridge
      From: philip@...
      11. Re: Missionary Ridge
      From: "Robert Taubman" <rtaubman@...>
      12. Re: Re: Muster 2001
      From: basecat1@...
      13. Re: Missionary Ridge
      From: josepharose@...
      14. Website for books
      From: josepharose@...
      15. Re: Re: Muster 2001
      From: LWhite64@...
      16. Re: Re: Muster 2001
      From: "P. B. Jones" <jones@...>


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 1
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 07:39:15 EST
      From: ppcattyrph@...
      Subject: Re: Re: Perryville

      In a message dated 3/20/01 8:41:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      glblank@... writes:

      << I believe there is a brand new book
      > out by Kent Masterson Brown with a collection of essays on
      Perryville. >>
      Civilwarwest members,
      Kent Masterson Brown's book is THE CIVIL WAR IN KENTUCKY, BATTLE FOR THE
      BLUEGRASS STATE. It is an excellent book of essays about the war in
      kentucky, but is not totally about Perryville. One essay by Kenneth Noe
      describes the battle, others talk about Munfordville, the battle of Richmond
      (E Kirby Smith's forces) and Pat Cleburne earning his spurs. Others deal
      with battles and politics not relating to Perryville at all.
      Regards,
      Peter Cohron


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      Message: 2
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:34:26 -0000
      From: "Jack Ehmer" <jackehmer123@...>
      Subject: Muster 2001

      Note to Steve Wakefield:

      Steve,

      I see that you are going to be the guide for the Chickamauga portion
      of Muster 2001. Can you tell us a little about the Chickamauga Tour?
      What book(s) do you recommend? I already have "This Terrible Sound"
      by Cozzens.

      Jack Ehmer



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      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 3
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:07:34 EST
      From: LWhite64@...
      Subject: Re: Muster 2001

      Not to step on Mr. Wakefield's toes, but since I am a Ranger at Chickamauga I thought I would pass these along, there is an excellent little book by Glenn Robertson that was written as part of the National Park Series that is carried by Eastern National Bookstore. Its a great book that clears up a number of the myths and mistakes that are found in Tucker's and Cozzen's books. It also runs for only $4.95 Also I would check out Stephen Woodworth's Chickamauga Battlefield Guidebook, it has some good content as well. We are still awaiting the definative Chickamauga book, Cozzens is the best detailed book on the fight, but not without mistakes. Anyway, I hope this is of help.

      Lee


      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 4
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:29:37 -0000
      From: josepharose@...
      Subject: Re: Muster 2001

      Lee,

      I've gone through the Cozzens' book. What are the mistakes to which
      you refer? I put a little more stock in his works than in most
      others, but wouldn't want to unbeknowingly accept his errors.

      Thanks,
      Joe



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      Message: 5
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:35:49 -0000
      From: "Jack Ehmer" <jackehmer123@...>
      Subject: Re: Muster 2001

      Lee,

      Thank you very much for the info. I'm sure that Steve won't mind; he
      is quite a gentleman, regardless of what some people think.:-)

      I didn't realize that you were a Ranger. You need to post more and
      tell us about Chickamauga. I am interested in your corrections to
      Cozzens. Will we be seeing you at the Muster?

      I appreciate your suggestions on reading. The Woodworth book is
      available through the Chat Room Group. I will have to go looking for
      Robertson's book.

      Jack Ehmer

      --- In civilwarwest@y..., LWhite64@a... wrote:
      > Not to step on Mr. Wakefield's toes, but since I am a Ranger at
      Chickamauga I thought I would pass these along, there is an excellent
      little book by Glenn Robertson that was written as part of the
      National Park Series that is carried by Eastern National Bookstore.
      Its a great book that clears up a number of the myths and mistakes
      that are found in Tucker's and Cozzen's books. It also runs for only
      $4.95 Also I would check out Stephen Woodworth's Chickamauga
      Battlefield Guidebook, it has some good content as well. We are
      still awaiting the definative Chickamauga book, Cozzens is the best
      detailed book on the fight, but not without mistakes. Anyway, I hope
      this is of help.
      >
      > Lee



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      Message: 6
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 13:44:54 -0500
      From: "Robert Taubman" <rtaubman@...>
      Subject: Re: Re: Muster 2001

      I second the motion. I would really like to know the errors before I
      read his book.

      It would be much appreciated.

      Bob Taubman
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <josepharose@...>
      To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 1:29 PM
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Muster 2001


      > Lee,
      >
      > I've gone through the Cozzens' book. What are the mistakes to which
      > you refer? I put a little more stock in his works than in most
      > others, but wouldn't want to unbeknowingly accept his errors.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Joe
      >
      >
      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 7
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 15:31:36 -0800
      From: "P. B. Jones" <jones@...>
      Subject: Re: Muster 2001

      Hi Lee,

      I presume that's the "The Battle of Chickamauga - Civil War Series"? My daughter picked up a copy of that for $4.95 while at Appomattox last June. 51 pages and lots of images and maps to keep even a teen's interest (one not too IN to the conflict I mean). :) FYI the Woodworth guidebook you mention has been suggested by others. The MUSTER 2001 website has a suggested reading section filled with titles submitted by members of the chatroom, AoT included. It can be found at http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/map1863/reading.html or the mirror site http://www.us-civilwar.com/muster2001/reading.html

      Hope to see you when we're visiting Chickamauga and Chattanooga in June!

      Best regards.

      Pat
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: LWhite64@...
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 9:07 AM
      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Muster 2001


      Not to step on Mr. Wakefield's toes, but since I am a Ranger at Chickamauga I thought I would pass these along, there is an excellent little book by Glenn Robertson that was written as part of the National Park Series that is carried by Eastern National Bookstore. Its a great book that clears up a number of the myths and mistakes that are found in Tucker's and Cozzen's books. It also runs for only $4.95 Also I would check out Stephen Woodworth's Chickamauga Battlefield Guidebook, it has some good content as well. We are still awaiting the definative Chickamauga book, Cozzens is the best detailed book on the fight, but not without mistakes. Anyway, I hope this is of help.

      Lee

      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



      [This message contained attachments]



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 8
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:19:25 EST
      From: FLYNSWEDE@...
      Subject: Re: Re: Muster 2001

      In a message dated 3/22/01 1:37:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      josepharose@... writes:

      << What are the mistakes to which
      you refer? >>
      One of the mistakes Cozzens makes is that he had Hiram Hall of the Fortieth
      Illinois as a Lt Col whereas he was only a Major. He did not make light
      colonel until April 1865.


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      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 9
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 23:50:03 -0000
      From: "Jack Ehmer" <jackehmer123@...>
      Subject: Re: Muster 2001

      I am curious as to how many from this board are thinking about
      attending Muster 2001?

      Jack Ehmer

      --- In civilwarwest@y..., "P. B. Jones" <jones@p...> wrote:
      > Hi Lee,


      > Hope to see you when we're visiting Chickamauga and Chattanooga in
      June!
      >
      > Best regards.
      >
      > Pat


      ..



      ________________________________________________________________________
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      Message: 10
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 20:10:23 -0500
      From: philip@...
      Subject: Missionary Ridge

      When we ascribe credit for the battle of Missionary Ridge, we have
      a tendency to concentrate on whether Grant or Thomas gave the
      orders that brought the results. I think that we overlook the orders
      that really brought the smashing victory, those of Braxton Bragg's.

      1)Everyone knows the line about Bragg not fortifying the military
      crest of the ridge. That is old news. He also did not fortify his
      flanks, and the ridge itself was neglected until immeditately prior to
      the conflict. I know I have made this point in the past, but I will
      restate it one more time. Longstreet and his engineers were
      pioneers in the develoment of trenches that would be copied and
      improved upon in later wars. None of this talent or these
      innovations were used. They had two months to fortify those
      positions. Later in the war, troops would have trenches dug and
      breastworks thrown up in 24-48 hours. Such neglect on Bragg and
      Breckenridge's part is deserving of credit.

      2) We have also read numerous times about how it was considered
      against the best military thinking to divide one's forces in the face
      of the enemy. Lee got away with it numerous times and is
      rightfully praised for his adroitness and nerve. Bragg divided his
      forces, too. But did he send them on a flanking march designed to
      come up on the Federals blind side and magnify the effect of his
      inferior forces? No, he sent them to Knoxville. He sent Longstreet
      (who should have been constructing his fortifications) with 15-
      17,000 men to assault the prepared postitions of Burnside who
      outnumbered him by nearly 10,000 men. Bragg had intended to
      beef up this force with 10,000 more reinforcements, but was
      interrupted by other events. Burnside, at the time, seemed to be
      shell-shocked by Fredricksburg. He had received repeated
      requests to move upon Bragg's rear, but failed to do so. He
      showed no inclination to go anywhere. A small force between him
      and Bragg's forces would have slowed him enough to give Bragg
      options when the time came. Bragg divided his forces while he sat
      up on that hill and watched tens of thousands of Federals
      amassing in his front. Rather than concentrate his forces against
      the enemy he decided to disperse them.

      3) The artillery at Missionary ridge was misplaced. This is a
      problem that I confess I have no answer for. Unfortunately the ridge
      was too high. A smaller hill like that at Marye's Heights allowed for
      an elevated postion that could fire over the heads of the infantry,
      but still provide for a raking fire with canister. Artillery at the top of
      Missionary Ridge could only deliver a plunging fire, especially
      placed the way it was. There was a dead zone at the base of the
      ridge that remained untouched. There was no raking fire on the
      face of the ridge. I wonder if that is because a canon can only be
      deflected downward just so far. To place the artillery at the base of
      the ridge in prepared emplacements would certainly have slowed
      the advance of the assaulting force, but they would have been
      difficult if not impossible to remove in time if the position couldn't be
      held.

      4) The most striking bit of innovation is, I believe, Breckinridge's
      brainchild. He decided to divide the forces that had been in the rifle
      pits and move some of them up the hill. Cozzens quotes
      subordinate officers who were alarmed at this move. They knew
      that they had little to resist a real assault with. Here's the good
      part. Some accounts suggest that the plan was to have the troops
      in the rifle pits fire a few rounds and then retreat up the hill. I know
      that it was common to have pickets who provided a similar function
      in most battles, but this one seems more like the Union boys that
      were hung out to dry in front of Franklin. Let's start this battle by
      having our boys running away from the Federals shall we? And up
      hill. With twenty thousand rifles pointed at their BACKS. Must be
      a particularly unnerving experience. It is no wonder that they cut
      out of there a little earlier than Bragg had planned.

      Let's give credit where it is due.
      Philip


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      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 11
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 20:17:03 -0500
      From: "Robert Taubman" <rtaubman@...>
      Subject: Re: Missionary Ridge

      But, isn't that the art of war. To take advantage of your opponents
      mistakes and oversights. Exploiting your enemies weaknesses, whatever
      their cause, will in most cases give you a leg-up.

      But you are right, Braggs failure to properly survey and fortify his
      position cost them.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <philip@...>
      To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 8:10 PM
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Missionary Ridge


      > When we ascribe credit for the battle of Missionary Ridge, we have
      > a tendency to concentrate on whether Grant or Thomas gave the
      > orders that brought the results. I think that we overlook the
      orders
      > that really brought the smashing victory, those of Braxton Bragg's.
      >
      > 1)Everyone knows the line about Bragg not fortifying the military
      > crest of the ridge. That is old news. He also did not fortify his
      > flanks, and the ridge itself was neglected until immeditately prior
      to
      > the conflict. I know I have made this point in the past, but I will
      > restate it one more time. Longstreet and his engineers were
      > pioneers in the develoment of trenches that would be copied and
      > improved upon in later wars. None of this talent or these
      > innovations were used. They had two months to fortify those
      > positions. Later in the war, troops would have trenches dug and
      > breastworks thrown up in 24-48 hours. Such neglect on Bragg and
      > Breckenridge's part is deserving of credit.
      >
      > 2) We have also read numerous times about how it was considered
      > against the best military thinking to divide one's forces in the
      face
      > of the enemy. Lee got away with it numerous times and is
      > rightfully praised for his adroitness and nerve. Bragg divided his
      > forces, too. But did he send them on a flanking march designed to
      > come up on the Federals blind side and magnify the effect of his
      > inferior forces? No, he sent them to Knoxville. He sent Longstreet
      > (who should have been constructing his fortifications) with 15-
      > 17,000 men to assault the prepared postitions of Burnside who
      > outnumbered him by nearly 10,000 men. Bragg had intended to
      > beef up this force with 10,000 more reinforcements, but was
      > interrupted by other events. Burnside, at the time, seemed to be
      > shell-shocked by Fredricksburg. He had received repeated
      > requests to move upon Bragg's rear, but failed to do so. He
      > showed no inclination to go anywhere. A small force between him
      > and Bragg's forces would have slowed him enough to give Bragg
      > options when the time came. Bragg divided his forces while he sat
      > up on that hill and watched tens of thousands of Federals
      > amassing in his front. Rather than concentrate his forces against
      > the enemy he decided to disperse them.
      >
      > 3) The artillery at Missionary ridge was misplaced. This is a
      > problem that I confess I have no answer for. Unfortunately the
      ridge
      > was too high. A smaller hill like that at Marye's Heights allowed
      for
      > an elevated postion that could fire over the heads of the infantry,
      > but still provide for a raking fire with canister. Artillery at the
      top of
      > Missionary Ridge could only deliver a plunging fire, especially
      > placed the way it was. There was a dead zone at the base of the
      > ridge that remained untouched. There was no raking fire on the
      > face of the ridge. I wonder if that is because a canon can only be
      > deflected downward just so far. To place the artillery at the base
      of
      > the ridge in prepared emplacements would certainly have slowed
      > the advance of the assaulting force, but they would have been
      > difficult if not impossible to remove in time if the position
      couldn't be
      > held.
      >
      > 4) The most striking bit of innovation is, I believe, Breckinridge's
      > brainchild. He decided to divide the forces that had been in the
      rifle
      > pits and move some of them up the hill. Cozzens quotes
      > subordinate officers who were alarmed at this move. They knew
      > that they had little to resist a real assault with. Here's the good
      > part. Some accounts suggest that the plan was to have the troops
      > in the rifle pits fire a few rounds and then retreat up the hill. I
      know
      > that it was common to have pickets who provided a similar function
      > in most battles, but this one seems more like the Union boys that
      > were hung out to dry in front of Franklin. Let's start this battle
      by
      > having our boys running away from the Federals shall we? And up
      > hill. With twenty thousand rifles pointed at their BACKS. Must be
      > a particularly unnerving experience. It is no wonder that they cut
      > out of there a little earlier than Bragg had planned.
      >
      > Let's give credit where it is due.
      > Philip
      >
      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________

      Message: 12
      Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 21:13:58 EST
      From: basecat1@...
      Subject: Re: Re: Muster 2001

      In a message dated 3/22/2001 6:55:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      jackehmer123@... writes:


      > I am curious as to how many from this board are thinking about
      > attending Muster 2001?
      >
      > Jack Ehmer
      >

      Jack....I will be attending. And should be a lot of fun, and a good learning
      experience. This will be my first time visiting Chickamauga and Chattanooga,
      and am really looking forward to it. Regards from the Garden State. Steve.



      [This message contained attachments]



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      Message: 13
      Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 03:34:52 -0000
      From: josepharose@...
      Subject: Re: Missionary Ridge

      Philip,

      Great post!

      I would, if I'm not being too forward, add a few more mistakes to
      Bragg's discredit.

      Fortification of the ridge wasn't begun "immediately prior to
      the conflict," but actually after Orchard Knob had been taken.

      You note that "Bragg had intended to beef up this force with 10,000
      more reinforcements, but was interrupted by other events." Actually,
      most of one of these two divisions actually departed for East
      Tennessee. Cleburne's division and one other brigade were recalled in
      time by Bragg after Orchard Knob.

      As to the "artillery at Missionary ridge was misplaced"; I have read
      that it was also too dispersed and not placed near avenues of retreat.

      You state that the "plan was to have the troops in the rifle pits fire
      a few rounds and then retreat up the hill." Unfortunately, this plan
      was only told to part of the troops in the pits. The others had to
      watch adjoining units seemingly panic, which can be worse than
      retreating on orders. Furthermore, troop movements meant that some
      units were not only split between the top and bottom, but that their
      positions were offset. When the men at bottom ascended the ridge,
      they might end up away from the remainder of their brigade.

      Bragg had also moved two divisions from his left, after Hooker had
      taken the lower slopes of Lookout, over to his right. They weren't
      needed by Hardee in the repulse of Sherman and could have helped
      mightily at Rossville Gap.

      What do people in this e-group think would be the best defense in this
      situation? Having everybody at the bottom would seem to invite
      catastrophe in an all-out Union assault. It was probably much easier,
      however, to have the troops bivouac on the flats. It would appear to
      make more sense to have everyone on the ridge with mobile reserves.

      Joseph




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      Message: 14
      Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 03:55:06 -0000
      From: josepharose@...
      Subject: Website for books

      Dick et al.,

      I hope that it's okay to recommend another site which a friend just
      told me about--I have no connection with it whatsoever--where books
      can be purchased cheaply. They can also be sold there. It's half.com
      and I just stuck "civil war" [in quotes] in a keyword search and
      received the results below. As can be seen, the savings can be quite
      good. This was one out of three pages with books listed for this
      subject. I assume that there are hundreds of other books on the Civil
      War out there which can be searched by title, keyword, author, or
      ISBN.

      Please rebuke me if I'm being inappropriate.

      Joseph


      Civil War Battles Curt Johnson
      � Hardcover (1977) 3 copies in stock. Best price: $6.95 (Save 30%)

      Civil War Prisons William B. Hesseltine
      � Paperback (1972) 1 copies in stock. Best price: $12.00

      Civil War Stories Ambrose Bierce
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      Civil War Etchings Edwin Forbes
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      Civil War Generals Civil War Society Staff
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      Civil War Memories Joshi
      � Paperback (2000) 2 copies in stock. Best price: $6.50

      Civil War Soldiers Mitchell Reid
      � Paperback (1997) 1 copies in stock. Best price: $6.00 (Save 54%)

      Civil War Soldiers
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      Civil War Songbook Crawford
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      Civil War Fantastic Martin H. Greenberg
      � Hardcover (2000) 7 copies in stock. Best price: $2.44 (Save 65%)

      Civil War Genealogy
      � Paperback (1996) 1 copies in stock. Best price: $8.00 (Save 33%)

      Civil War in Russia
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      Civil War on Sunday
      � Paperback (2000) 1 copies in stock. Best price: $1.99 (Save 50%)

      Civil War Commanders S. Thomas
      � Paperback (1986) 1 copies in stock. Best price: $1.97 (Save 67%)

      Civil War Sourcebook Chuck Lawliss
      � Hardcover (1991) 8 copies in stock. Best price: $6.95 (Save 65%)

      Civil War Wall Chart
      � Book (1991) 2 copies in stock. Best price: $20.00

      Civil War in America
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      Civil War Courtship, A
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      Civil War Curiosities Webb Garrison
      � Paperback (1994) 50+ copies in stock. Best price: $2.00 (Save
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      Message: 15
      Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 00:07:02 EST
      From: LWhite64@...
      Subject: Re: Re: Muster 2001

      I will be getting to you all about the mistakes, most of them are minor, but
      he does bite on a few of the myths of the battle. As to Dr. Robertson's
      Book, best thing is to check one of the NPS sites for their Eastern National
      Bookstore e stores, I know Chickamauga has a site. THe book is hard to
      obtain outside of this source.

      Lee


      [This message contained attachments]



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      Message: 16
      Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 00:43:02 -0800
      From: "P. B. Jones" <jones@...>
      Subject: Re: Re: Muster 2001

      Jack,

      In looking over the Members here I think I can safely say about a dozen from this group plan to attend muster. When you add other chatroom participants I'd expect we'll have at least 25-30 people meeting at Chickamauga and Chattanooga.

      Pat
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Jack Ehmer
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 3:50 PM
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Muster 2001


      I am curious as to how many from this board are thinking about
      attending Muster 2001?

      Jack Ehmer




      [This message contained attachments]



      ________________________________________________________________________
      ________________________________________________________________________



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