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Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

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  • Tony Gunter
    ... Well, I flipped directly to the Raymond section to see another version of the battle, and it was horrible. However, I moved back to the front of the book,
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 1, 2005
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      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
      > Mine just arrived yesterday but I have not looked at Raymond yet. That
      > does mot make me feel good about the investment ( cash or time ).

      Well, I flipped directly to the Raymond section to see another version
      of the battle, and it was horrible. However, I moved back to the front
      of the book, and it's fairly interesting with tidbits about Logan's
      father, and his upbringing. So suffice it to say that Ecelbarger is a
      biographer who slipped a little on the battlefield pieces (Raymond
      analysis is completely wrong, and he somehow avoids even expending a
      full paragraph on the battle of Jackson).
    • Harry Smeltzer
      Just curious, Tony. Does anybody get it right? I mean, get any of the actions surrounding Vicksburg right? It seems that no recently published author gets
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 1, 2005
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        Just curious, Tony.

        Does anybody get it right? I mean, get any of the actions surrounding
        Vicksburg right? It seems that no recently published author gets any of
        this stuff right.

        Harry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Tony Gunter
        Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 1:04 PM
        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
        > Mine just arrived yesterday but I have not looked at Raymond yet. That
        > does mot make me feel good about the investment ( cash or time ).

        Well, I flipped directly to the Raymond section to see another version
        of the battle, and it was horrible. However, I moved back to the front
        of the book, and it's fairly interesting with tidbits about Logan's
        father, and his upbringing. So suffice it to say that Ecelbarger is a
        biographer who slipped a little on the battlefield pieces (Raymond
        analysis is completely wrong, and he somehow avoids even expending a
        full paragraph on the battle of Jackson).








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      • Tom Mix
        Well, that makes me feel better. It is a large book so I m glad it is an interesting read. I m beginning if Raymond really took place or was just a made up
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 1, 2005
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          Well, that makes me feel better. It is a large book so I'm glad it is an
          interesting read.
          I'm beginning if Raymond really took place or was just a made up event
          on both sides. They just met one night over coffee and game of spades
          and decided "Lets create a battle totally from imagination just to
          confuse future historians. That way no one will get it right because it
          never happened."
          Yeah, that makes sense to me.
          Tom

          -----Original Message-----
          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of Tony Gunter
          Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 1:04 PM
          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
          > Mine just arrived yesterday but I have not looked at Raymond yet. That
          > does mot make me feel good about the investment ( cash or time ).

          Well, I flipped directly to the Raymond section to see another version
          of the battle, and it was horrible. However, I moved back to the front
          of the book, and it's fairly interesting with tidbits about Logan's
          father, and his upbringing. So suffice it to say that Ecelbarger is a
          biographer who slipped a little on the battlefield pieces (Raymond
          analysis is completely wrong, and he somehow avoids even expending a
          full paragraph on the battle of Jackson).








          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Tony Gunter
          ... Some authors absolutely nail certain portions of the campaign, but I haven t seen any author yet nail the entire campaign. The Battle of Raymond, however,
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 1, 2005
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            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
            wrote:
            > Just curious, Tony.
            >
            > Does anybody get it right? I mean, get any of the actions
            > surrounding Vicksburg right?

            Some authors absolutely nail certain portions of the campaign, but I
            haven't seen any author yet nail the entire campaign. The Battle of
            Raymond, however, is the most misunderstood and misinterpreted battle
            I have ever run across, hands down.

            I haven't yet run across an author who correctly attributes the first
            shots of the engagement to DeGolyer, nor an author who correctly
            pinpoints the start of the battle (everyone says 10 o'clock, but it
            was closer to noon), nor why the 23rd Indiana ended up alone on the
            other side of Fourteen Mile Creek, nor why the 20th Ohio ended up in
            the creek bed unsupported on either the right or left.

            These are pretty key points to understanding the battle.

            Ecelbarger is particularly bad, however. Logan's division
            (remember... the *entire* division) had time to deploy, stack arms,
            rest, redeploy, and break for lunch between the time that DeGolyer
            was called forward to disperse the "bait" that Gregg had planted on
            the bridge, and the time that McPherson ordered Logan to attack.
            Ecelbarger's take on this is:

            "3,000 Confederates caught Dennis' brigade by suprise... Hearing the
            artillery, but not knowing that Dennis' brigade was engaged, ...
            Smith's regiments deployed expecting to find the enemy well in front
            of them, closer to Raymond... Exiting the woods and entering a field
            in front of the creek, the Union infantry was clearly caught off
            guard... all was confusion as Logan's leading brigades struggled to
            deploy in the woods and open areas to return fire... Logan wheeled to
            Stevenson's men and spurred them [towards the battle] by
            bellowing 'Go in boys, and lift them out of that with cold steel.'"

            This makes it sound like Logan allowed Dennis to be attacked, then
            fed the remainder of this division into the battle brigade-by-
            brigade. That is the single most horrible misrepresentation of the
            battle imaginable.
          • Tony Gunter
            ... Well, if you re expecting a book heavy with information on Logan s ACW exploits, this book is a bit of a disappointment. Given that Logan s division
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 1, 2005
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              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
              > Well, that makes me feel better. It is a large book so I'm
              > glad it is an interesting read. I'm beginning if Raymond really
              > took place or was just a made up event on both sides.

              Well, if you're expecting a book heavy with information on Logan's ACW
              exploits, this book is a bit of a disappointment. Given that Logan's
              division carried the day at both Raymond and Champion Hill, I would
              have expected a detailed chapter on each. However, the entire
              Vicksburg campaign is lumped into a single chapter that concludes on
              May 5, 1864 with Logan writing to his wife about preparations for the
              Atlanta campaign.
            • Dave Smith
              From a Confederate command perspective - and especially during the May 1 thru May 18 perspective - not really. Dave ... surrounding ... any of ...
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
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                From a Confederate command perspective - and especially during the
                May 1 thru May 18 perspective - not really.

                Dave

                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
                wrote:
                > Just curious, Tony.
                >
                > Does anybody get it right? I mean, get any of the actions
                surrounding
                > Vicksburg right? It seems that no recently published author gets
                any of
                > this stuff right.
                >
                > Harry
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of Tony Gunter
                > Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 1:04 PM
                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"
                >
                > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                > > Mine just arrived yesterday but I have not looked at Raymond
                yet. That
                > > does mot make me feel good about the investment ( cash or
                time ).
                >
                > Well, I flipped directly to the Raymond section to see another
                version
                > of the battle, and it was horrible. However, I moved back to the
                front
                > of the book, and it's fairly interesting with tidbits about
                Logan's
                > father, and his upbringing. So suffice it to say that Ecelbarger
                is a
                > biographer who slipped a little on the battlefield pieces (Raymond
                > analysis is completely wrong, and he somehow avoids even expending
                a
                > full paragraph on the battle of Jackson).
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Jfepperson@aol.com
                In a message dated 10/2/2005 5:22:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dmsmith001@yahoo.com writes: From a Confederate command perspective - and especially during
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
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                  In a message dated 10/2/2005 5:22:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dmsmith001@... writes:
                  From a Confederate command perspective - and especially during the
                  May 1 thru May 18 perspective - not really.
                  =====
                  Well, I can think of *one* book that does a good job of it ;-)
                   
                  JFE
                • Jfepperson@aol.com
                  In a message dated 10/2/2005 6:24:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, billgower@charter.net writes: I think that between the Bearss 3 volume set on the Vicksburg
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
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                    In a message dated 10/2/2005 6:24:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, billgower@... writes:

                    I think that between the Bearss 3 volume set on the Vicksburg Campaign and Warren Grabau’s Ninety-Eight Days, a person gets an excellent perspective from both sides on what occurred between May 1 and May 18.

                    =====
                    I understand both of those are good, but I was teasing Dave out his own
                    contribution, "Compelled to Appear in Print..."
                     
                    JFE
                  • Bill Gower
                    I think that between the Bearss 3 volume set on the Vicksburg Campaign and Warren Grabau s Ninety-Eight Days, a person gets an excellent perspective from both
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
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                      I think that between the Bearss 3 volume set on the Vicksburg Campaign and Warren Grabau’s Ninety-Eight Days, a person gets an excellent perspective from both sides on what occurred between May 1 and May 18.

                       

                      Bill

                       

                       


                      From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jfepperson@...
                      Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 6:20 PM
                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

                       

                      In a message dated 10/2/2005 5:22:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dmsmith001@... writes:

                      From a Confederate command perspective - and especially during the
                      May 1 thru May 18 perspective - not really.

                      =====

                      Well, I can think of *one* book that does a good job of it ;-)

                       

                      JFE

                       

                    • Bill Gower
                      Actually I really enjoyed that book too. _____ From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jfepperson@aol.com Sent:
                      Message 10 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
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                        Actually I really enjoyed that book too.

                         


                        From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jfepperson@...
                        Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 6:27 PM
                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

                         

                        In a message dated 10/2/2005 6:24:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, billgower@... writes:

                        I think that between the Bearss 3 volume set on the Vicksburg Campaign and Warren Grabau’s Ninety-Eight Days, a person gets an excellent perspective from both sides on what occurred between May 1 and May 18.

                        =====

                        I understand both of those are good, but I was teasing Dave out his own

                        contribution, "Compelled to Appear in Print..."

                         

                        JFE

                         

                      • Stanley Balsky
                        ... Don t be coy-Tell Stan __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
                        Message 11 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
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                          --- Jfepperson@... wrote:

                          >
                          > In a message dated 10/2/2005 5:22:07 P.M. Eastern
                          > Standard Time,
                          > dmsmith001@... writes:
                          >
                          > >From a Confederate command perspective - and
                          > especially during the
                          > May 1 thru May 18 perspective - not really.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > =====
                          > Well, I can think of *one* book that does a good job
                          > of it ;-)
                          >
                          > JFE
                          >
                          Don't be coy-Tell
                          Stan



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