Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

Expand Messages
  • Tony Gunter
    Bought it through Amazon, it arrived today. I just flipped through the section on the Battle of Raymond, and it s terrible. Just dead wrong on all counts.
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 30, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Bought it through Amazon, it arrived today. I just flipped through the
      section on the Battle of Raymond, and it's terrible. Just dead wrong
      on all counts. Worst version of the battle I have read yet.
    • William H Keene
      Worst yet? Ouch.
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 30, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Worst yet? Ouch.

        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Bought it through Amazon, it arrived today. I just flipped through the
        > section on the Battle of Raymond, and it's terrible. Just dead wrong
        > on all counts. Worst version of the battle I have read yet.
      • Tom Mix
        Mine just arrived yesterday but I have not looked at Raymond yet. That does mot make me feel good about the investment ( cash or time ). ... From:
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 30, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Mine just arrived yesterday but I have not looked at Raymond yet. That
          does mot make me feel good about the investment ( cash or time ).

          -----Original Message-----
          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of William H Keene
          Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 4:22 PM
          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

          Worst yet? Ouch.

          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Bought it through Amazon, it arrived today. I just flipped through
          the
          > section on the Battle of Raymond, and it's terrible. Just dead wrong
          > on all counts. Worst version of the battle I have read yet.






          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Tony Gunter
          ... Well, I flipped directly to the Raymond section to see another version of the battle, and it was horrible. However, I moved back to the front of the book,
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 1, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
            > Mine just arrived yesterday but I have not looked at Raymond yet. That
            > does mot make me feel good about the investment ( cash or time ).

            Well, I flipped directly to the Raymond section to see another version
            of the battle, and it was horrible. However, I moved back to the front
            of the book, and it's fairly interesting with tidbits about Logan's
            father, and his upbringing. So suffice it to say that Ecelbarger is a
            biographer who slipped a little on the battlefield pieces (Raymond
            analysis is completely wrong, and he somehow avoids even expending a
            full paragraph on the battle of Jackson).
          • Harry Smeltzer
            Just curious, Tony. Does anybody get it right? I mean, get any of the actions surrounding Vicksburg right? It seems that no recently published author gets
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 1, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Just curious, Tony.

              Does anybody get it right? I mean, get any of the actions surrounding
              Vicksburg right? It seems that no recently published author gets any of
              this stuff right.

              Harry

              -----Original Message-----
              From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Tony Gunter
              Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 1:04 PM
              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
              > Mine just arrived yesterday but I have not looked at Raymond yet. That
              > does mot make me feel good about the investment ( cash or time ).

              Well, I flipped directly to the Raymond section to see another version
              of the battle, and it was horrible. However, I moved back to the front
              of the book, and it's fairly interesting with tidbits about Logan's
              father, and his upbringing. So suffice it to say that Ecelbarger is a
              biographer who slipped a little on the battlefield pieces (Raymond
              analysis is completely wrong, and he somehow avoids even expending a
              full paragraph on the battle of Jackson).








              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Tom Mix
              Well, that makes me feel better. It is a large book so I m glad it is an interesting read. I m beginning if Raymond really took place or was just a made up
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 1, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Well, that makes me feel better. It is a large book so I'm glad it is an
                interesting read.
                I'm beginning if Raymond really took place or was just a made up event
                on both sides. They just met one night over coffee and game of spades
                and decided "Lets create a battle totally from imagination just to
                confuse future historians. That way no one will get it right because it
                never happened."
                Yeah, that makes sense to me.
                Tom

                -----Original Message-----
                From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                On Behalf Of Tony Gunter
                Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 1:04 PM
                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                > Mine just arrived yesterday but I have not looked at Raymond yet. That
                > does mot make me feel good about the investment ( cash or time ).

                Well, I flipped directly to the Raymond section to see another version
                of the battle, and it was horrible. However, I moved back to the front
                of the book, and it's fairly interesting with tidbits about Logan's
                father, and his upbringing. So suffice it to say that Ecelbarger is a
                biographer who slipped a little on the battlefield pieces (Raymond
                analysis is completely wrong, and he somehow avoids even expending a
                full paragraph on the battle of Jackson).








                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Tony Gunter
                ... Some authors absolutely nail certain portions of the campaign, but I haven t seen any author yet nail the entire campaign. The Battle of Raymond, however,
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 1, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
                  wrote:
                  > Just curious, Tony.
                  >
                  > Does anybody get it right? I mean, get any of the actions
                  > surrounding Vicksburg right?

                  Some authors absolutely nail certain portions of the campaign, but I
                  haven't seen any author yet nail the entire campaign. The Battle of
                  Raymond, however, is the most misunderstood and misinterpreted battle
                  I have ever run across, hands down.

                  I haven't yet run across an author who correctly attributes the first
                  shots of the engagement to DeGolyer, nor an author who correctly
                  pinpoints the start of the battle (everyone says 10 o'clock, but it
                  was closer to noon), nor why the 23rd Indiana ended up alone on the
                  other side of Fourteen Mile Creek, nor why the 20th Ohio ended up in
                  the creek bed unsupported on either the right or left.

                  These are pretty key points to understanding the battle.

                  Ecelbarger is particularly bad, however. Logan's division
                  (remember... the *entire* division) had time to deploy, stack arms,
                  rest, redeploy, and break for lunch between the time that DeGolyer
                  was called forward to disperse the "bait" that Gregg had planted on
                  the bridge, and the time that McPherson ordered Logan to attack.
                  Ecelbarger's take on this is:

                  "3,000 Confederates caught Dennis' brigade by suprise... Hearing the
                  artillery, but not knowing that Dennis' brigade was engaged, ...
                  Smith's regiments deployed expecting to find the enemy well in front
                  of them, closer to Raymond... Exiting the woods and entering a field
                  in front of the creek, the Union infantry was clearly caught off
                  guard... all was confusion as Logan's leading brigades struggled to
                  deploy in the woods and open areas to return fire... Logan wheeled to
                  Stevenson's men and spurred them [towards the battle] by
                  bellowing 'Go in boys, and lift them out of that with cold steel.'"

                  This makes it sound like Logan allowed Dennis to be attacked, then
                  fed the remainder of this division into the battle brigade-by-
                  brigade. That is the single most horrible misrepresentation of the
                  battle imaginable.
                • Tony Gunter
                  ... Well, if you re expecting a book heavy with information on Logan s ACW exploits, this book is a bit of a disappointment. Given that Logan s division
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 1, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                    > Well, that makes me feel better. It is a large book so I'm
                    > glad it is an interesting read. I'm beginning if Raymond really
                    > took place or was just a made up event on both sides.

                    Well, if you're expecting a book heavy with information on Logan's ACW
                    exploits, this book is a bit of a disappointment. Given that Logan's
                    division carried the day at both Raymond and Champion Hill, I would
                    have expected a detailed chapter on each. However, the entire
                    Vicksburg campaign is lumped into a single chapter that concludes on
                    May 5, 1864 with Logan writing to his wife about preparations for the
                    Atlanta campaign.
                  • Dave Smith
                    From a Confederate command perspective - and especially during the May 1 thru May 18 perspective - not really. Dave ... surrounding ... any of ...
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      From a Confederate command perspective - and especially during the
                      May 1 thru May 18 perspective - not really.

                      Dave

                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@c...>
                      wrote:
                      > Just curious, Tony.
                      >
                      > Does anybody get it right? I mean, get any of the actions
                      surrounding
                      > Vicksburg right? It seems that no recently published author gets
                      any of
                      > this stuff right.
                      >
                      > Harry
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of Tony Gunter
                      > Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 1:04 PM
                      > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"
                      >
                      > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                      > > Mine just arrived yesterday but I have not looked at Raymond
                      yet. That
                      > > does mot make me feel good about the investment ( cash or
                      time ).
                      >
                      > Well, I flipped directly to the Raymond section to see another
                      version
                      > of the battle, and it was horrible. However, I moved back to the
                      front
                      > of the book, and it's fairly interesting with tidbits about
                      Logan's
                      > father, and his upbringing. So suffice it to say that Ecelbarger
                      is a
                      > biographer who slipped a little on the battlefield pieces (Raymond
                      > analysis is completely wrong, and he somehow avoids even expending
                      a
                      > full paragraph on the battle of Jackson).
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Jfepperson@aol.com
                      In a message dated 10/2/2005 5:22:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dmsmith001@yahoo.com writes: From a Confederate command perspective - and especially during
                      Message 10 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        In a message dated 10/2/2005 5:22:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dmsmith001@... writes:
                        From a Confederate command perspective - and especially during the
                        May 1 thru May 18 perspective - not really.
                        =====
                        Well, I can think of *one* book that does a good job of it ;-)
                         
                        JFE
                      • Jfepperson@aol.com
                        In a message dated 10/2/2005 6:24:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, billgower@charter.net writes: I think that between the Bearss 3 volume set on the Vicksburg
                        Message 11 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In a message dated 10/2/2005 6:24:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, billgower@... writes:

                          I think that between the Bearss 3 volume set on the Vicksburg Campaign and Warren Grabau’s Ninety-Eight Days, a person gets an excellent perspective from both sides on what occurred between May 1 and May 18.

                          =====
                          I understand both of those are good, but I was teasing Dave out his own
                          contribution, "Compelled to Appear in Print..."
                           
                          JFE
                        • Bill Gower
                          I think that between the Bearss 3 volume set on the Vicksburg Campaign and Warren Grabau s Ninety-Eight Days, a person gets an excellent perspective from both
                          Message 12 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment

                            I think that between the Bearss 3 volume set on the Vicksburg Campaign and Warren Grabau’s Ninety-Eight Days, a person gets an excellent perspective from both sides on what occurred between May 1 and May 18.

                             

                            Bill

                             

                             


                            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jfepperson@...
                            Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 6:20 PM
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

                             

                            In a message dated 10/2/2005 5:22:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dmsmith001@... writes:

                            From a Confederate command perspective - and especially during the
                            May 1 thru May 18 perspective - not really.

                            =====

                            Well, I can think of *one* book that does a good job of it ;-)

                             

                            JFE

                             

                          • Bill Gower
                            Actually I really enjoyed that book too. _____ From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jfepperson@aol.com Sent:
                            Message 13 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Actually I really enjoyed that book too.

                               


                              From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jfepperson@...
                              Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 6:27 PM
                              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

                               

                              In a message dated 10/2/2005 6:24:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, billgower@... writes:

                              I think that between the Bearss 3 volume set on the Vicksburg Campaign and Warren Grabau’s Ninety-Eight Days, a person gets an excellent perspective from both sides on what occurred between May 1 and May 18.

                              =====

                              I understand both of those are good, but I was teasing Dave out his own

                              contribution, "Compelled to Appear in Print..."

                               

                              JFE

                               

                            • Stanley Balsky
                              ... Don t be coy-Tell Stan __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
                              Message 14 of 14 , Oct 2, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- Jfepperson@... wrote:

                                >
                                > In a message dated 10/2/2005 5:22:07 P.M. Eastern
                                > Standard Time,
                                > dmsmith001@... writes:
                                >
                                > >From a Confederate command perspective - and
                                > especially during the
                                > May 1 thru May 18 perspective - not really.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > =====
                                > Well, I can think of *one* book that does a good job
                                > of it ;-)
                                >
                                > JFE
                                >
                                Don't be coy-Tell
                                Stan



                                __________________________________
                                Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
                                http://mail.yahoo.com
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.