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Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

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  • keeno2@aol.com
    Wow! Thankss. The name sounded familiar, and fortunately, I have it. Will now take the time to read it. Ken
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 2, 2005
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      Wow! Thankss. The name sounded familiar, and fortunately, I have it.  Will now take the time to read it.
      Ken
    • keeno2@aol.com
      Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore s article. Given Grant s distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on his staff people who could reliably do
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 3, 2005
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        Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
         
        Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on his staff people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what could not.
         
        Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from scratch. Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering points for supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move transportation to that part involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra wagons, horses, et al.
         
        As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle. Bring in that genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the wherewithal to be ready the day before that.
         
        Thanks again.
        Ken
      • Harry Smeltzer
        The old saying goes Amateurs study tactics - professionals study logistics. I think this is mostly because tactics lends itself more easily to sweeping,
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 3, 2005
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          The old saying goes "Amateurs study tactics - professionals study
          logistics." I think this is mostly because tactics lends itself more easily
          to sweeping, romantic generalizations in relative vacuums. Logistics is
          complicated and mind numbingly dull - most amateurs see it more often than
          not as an "excuse" for the failure of tactics.

          Harry

          -----Original Message-----
          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of profgrimsley
          Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:47 PM
          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

          One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article
          that is now almost half a century old:

          John G. Moore, "Mobility and Strategy in the Civil War" Military
          Affairs, Vol. 24, No. 2, Civil War Issue. (Summer, 1960), pp. 68-77.

          Stable URL:
          http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-3931%2819602
          2%2924%3A2%3C68%3AMASITC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T

          Its documentation is deceptively simple, but it has some pretty shrewd
          calculations about the extent to which Civil War armies of a given
          size could forage within a given area and, particularly, the demands
          of supplying an army at increasing distances from a railhead.

          The issue is available online (thus the Stable URL). But--so far as I
          know-- it can only be accessed through
          J-STOR (short for Journal Storage), and you'll need permission to
          do so. However, many college libraries and even some secondary
          schools subscribe to it, and you can get to it via their on-site
          computers. You can find a list participating institutions here:

          http://www.jstor.org/about/participants_na.html

          It's not so much that this single article is worth the trouble of
          gaining access to J-STOR, but there's such an abundance of scholarship
          available once you do get access that it's worth looking into.

          As an alternative, the Moore article is reprinted in _Military
          Analysis of the Civil War_ (KTO Press, 1977).

          Mark






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        • Norris Darrall
          ... , I suspect he simply kept on his staff ... could not. ... Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental Quartermaster and wartime
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
            , I suspect he simply kept on his staff
            > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical
            > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
            could not.
            >
            Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental
            Quartermaster and wartime experience during the Mexican War. He had
            first hand knowledge of lower level logistics requirements and
            hands-on methods. His grasp of this field contributed to his efforts
            as Army Commander.
          • keeno2@aol.com
            Thanks for pitching in, Norris. It s a given that Grant had some certifiably solid experience. I guess what I didn t make clear was that Moore s article was
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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              Thanks for pitching in, Norris.
               
              It's a given that Grant had some certifiably solid experience. I guess what I didn't make clear was that Moore's article was frought with calculations that made my eyes cross, glaze, and eventually close. My intention was to suppose that he didn't personally make those calculations if, indeed, similar calculations were in use.
               
              Speed of the march and its front affect the ratio of human to animal food required for the movement. It is this sort of balance that I propose he intuitively knew.
            • Tom Mix
              Plus he was an excellent mathematician having done well enough to have been offered a teaching position at the Point upon his graduation, according some
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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                Plus he was an excellent mathematician having done well enough to have
                been offered a teaching position at the Point upon his graduation,
                according some objective Grant historians.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                On Behalf Of Norris Darrall
                Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 9:09 AM
                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                , I suspect he simply kept on his staff
                > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His
                logistical
                > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                could not.
                >
                Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental
                Quartermaster and wartime experience during the Mexican War. He had
                first hand knowledge of lower level logistics requirements and
                hands-on methods. His grasp of this field contributed to his efforts
                as Army Commander.







                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • josepharose
                ... his staff ... could not. As to Grant s mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                  > Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                  >
                  > Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on
                  his staff
                  > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical
                  > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                  could not.

                  As to Grant's mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered
                  that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                  ammunition. He had to be told that the weight of the ammo which he
                  requested was much too much for each wagonload, and that the number of
                  wagons would consequently have to be increased.

                  Joseph

                  > Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from
                  scratch.
                  > Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering
                  points for
                  > supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move
                  transportation to that part
                  > involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra
                  > wagons, horses, et al.
                  >
                  > As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered
                  > dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle.
                  Bring in that
                  > genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the
                  wherewithal to be
                  > ready the day before that.
                  >
                  > Thanks again.
                  > Ken
                • Jfepperson@aol.com
                  Given Grant s distaste for mathematics ===== This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here. Mathematics was one of Grant s favorite (and best)
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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                    Given Grant's distaste for mathematics
                    =====
                    This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here.  Mathematics
                    was one of Grant's favorite (and best) subjects at West Point.
                     
                    JFE
                     

                    James F. Epperson
                    http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
                    http://members.aol.com/siege1864
                  • keeno2@aol.com
                    Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick up on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant sat up late
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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                      Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick up on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant sat up late every night to relish the mathematical intricacies of calculating logistical necessities.
                    • hank9174
                      ... pick up ... sat up ... calculating logistical ... The tidbit on supply in the Moore article during a theoretical 1864 move on Gordonsville, Virginia is a
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
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                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                        > Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to
                        pick up
                        > on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant
                        sat up
                        > late every night to relish the mathematical intricacies of
                        calculating logistical
                        > necessities.

                        The tidbit on supply in the Moore article during a theoretical 1864
                        move on Gordonsville, Virginia is a useful counterweight to Krick's
                        assertion that the lack of such an 'obvious' move casts an aspersion on
                        Grant's generalship.


                        HankC
                      • Tom Mix
                        So? Kind of nit picky to me but what I have come to expect regarding any ANY comment on or about Grant. ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
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                          So?
                          Kind of nit picky to me but what I have come to expect regarding any ANY
                          comment on or about Grant.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                          On Behalf Of josepharose
                          Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:17 PM
                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                          > Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                          >
                          > Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on
                          his staff
                          > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His
                          logistical
                          > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                          could not.

                          As to Grant's mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered
                          that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                          ammunition. He had to be told that the weight of the ammo which he
                          requested was much too much for each wagonload, and that the number of
                          wagons would consequently have to be increased.

                          Joseph

                          > Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from
                          scratch.
                          > Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering
                          points for
                          > supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move
                          transportation to that part
                          > involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra

                          > wagons, horses, et al.
                          >
                          > As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered
                          > dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle.
                          Bring in that
                          > genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the
                          wherewithal to be
                          > ready the day before that.
                          >
                          > Thanks again.
                          > Ken






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                        • Tom Mix
                          No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician. ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
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                            No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician.

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jfepperson@...
                            Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:26 PM
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                             

                             

                            Given Grant's distaste for mathematics

                            =====

                            This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here.  Mathematics

                            was one of Grant's favorite (and best) subjects at West Point.

                             

                            JFE

                             


                            James F. Epperson
                            http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
                            http://members.aol.com/siege1864

                             

                          • banbruner@aol.com
                            In a message dated 9/6/2005 11:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@insightbb.com writes: No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician and a grim
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 8, 2005
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                              In a message dated 9/6/2005 11:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@... writes:
                              No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician
                              and a grim mathematgician.
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