Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Logistics

Expand Messages
  • profgrimsley
    One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article that is now almost half a century old: John G. Moore, Mobility and Strategy in the
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 2, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article
      that is now almost half a century old:

      John G. Moore, "Mobility and Strategy in the Civil War" Military
      Affairs, Vol. 24, No. 2, Civil War Issue. (Summer, 1960), pp. 68-77.

      Stable URL:
      http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-3931%2819602
      2%2924%3A2%3C68%3AMASITC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T

      Its documentation is deceptively simple, but it has some pretty shrewd
      calculations about the extent to which Civil War armies of a given
      size could forage within a given area and, particularly, the demands
      of supplying an army at increasing distances from a railhead.

      The issue is available online (thus the Stable URL). But--so far as I
      know-- it can only be accessed through
      J-STOR (short for Journal Storage), and you'll need permission to
      do so. However, many college libraries and even some secondary
      schools subscribe to it, and you can get to it via their on-site
      computers. You can find a list participating institutions here:

      http://www.jstor.org/about/participants_na.html

      It's not so much that this single article is worth the trouble of
      gaining access to J-STOR, but there's such an abundance of scholarship
      available once you do get access that it's worth looking into.

      As an alternative, the Moore article is reprinted in _Military
      Analysis of the Civil War_ (KTO Press, 1977).

      Mark
    • keeno2@aol.com
      Wow! Thankss. The name sounded familiar, and fortunately, I have it. Will now take the time to read it. Ken
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 2, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Wow! Thankss. The name sounded familiar, and fortunately, I have it.  Will now take the time to read it.
        Ken
      • keeno2@aol.com
        Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore s article. Given Grant s distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on his staff people who could reliably do
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 3, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
           
          Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on his staff people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what could not.
           
          Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from scratch. Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering points for supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move transportation to that part involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra wagons, horses, et al.
           
          As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle. Bring in that genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the wherewithal to be ready the day before that.
           
          Thanks again.
          Ken
        • Harry Smeltzer
          The old saying goes Amateurs study tactics - professionals study logistics. I think this is mostly because tactics lends itself more easily to sweeping,
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 3, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            The old saying goes "Amateurs study tactics - professionals study
            logistics." I think this is mostly because tactics lends itself more easily
            to sweeping, romantic generalizations in relative vacuums. Logistics is
            complicated and mind numbingly dull - most amateurs see it more often than
            not as an "excuse" for the failure of tactics.

            Harry

            -----Original Message-----
            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of profgrimsley
            Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:47 PM
            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

            One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article
            that is now almost half a century old:

            John G. Moore, "Mobility and Strategy in the Civil War" Military
            Affairs, Vol. 24, No. 2, Civil War Issue. (Summer, 1960), pp. 68-77.

            Stable URL:
            http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-3931%2819602
            2%2924%3A2%3C68%3AMASITC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T

            Its documentation is deceptively simple, but it has some pretty shrewd
            calculations about the extent to which Civil War armies of a given
            size could forage within a given area and, particularly, the demands
            of supplying an army at increasing distances from a railhead.

            The issue is available online (thus the Stable URL). But--so far as I
            know-- it can only be accessed through
            J-STOR (short for Journal Storage), and you'll need permission to
            do so. However, many college libraries and even some secondary
            schools subscribe to it, and you can get to it via their on-site
            computers. You can find a list participating institutions here:

            http://www.jstor.org/about/participants_na.html

            It's not so much that this single article is worth the trouble of
            gaining access to J-STOR, but there's such an abundance of scholarship
            available once you do get access that it's worth looking into.

            As an alternative, the Moore article is reprinted in _Military
            Analysis of the Civil War_ (KTO Press, 1977).

            Mark






            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Norris Darrall
            ... , I suspect he simply kept on his staff ... could not. ... Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental Quartermaster and wartime
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
              , I suspect he simply kept on his staff
              > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical
              > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
              could not.
              >
              Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental
              Quartermaster and wartime experience during the Mexican War. He had
              first hand knowledge of lower level logistics requirements and
              hands-on methods. His grasp of this field contributed to his efforts
              as Army Commander.
            • keeno2@aol.com
              Thanks for pitching in, Norris. It s a given that Grant had some certifiably solid experience. I guess what I didn t make clear was that Moore s article was
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Thanks for pitching in, Norris.
                 
                It's a given that Grant had some certifiably solid experience. I guess what I didn't make clear was that Moore's article was frought with calculations that made my eyes cross, glaze, and eventually close. My intention was to suppose that he didn't personally make those calculations if, indeed, similar calculations were in use.
                 
                Speed of the march and its front affect the ratio of human to animal food required for the movement. It is this sort of balance that I propose he intuitively knew.
              • Tom Mix
                Plus he was an excellent mathematician having done well enough to have been offered a teaching position at the Point upon his graduation, according some
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Plus he was an excellent mathematician having done well enough to have
                  been offered a teaching position at the Point upon his graduation,
                  according some objective Grant historians.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of Norris Darrall
                  Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 9:09 AM
                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                  , I suspect he simply kept on his staff
                  > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His
                  logistical
                  > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                  could not.
                  >
                  Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental
                  Quartermaster and wartime experience during the Mexican War. He had
                  first hand knowledge of lower level logistics requirements and
                  hands-on methods. His grasp of this field contributed to his efforts
                  as Army Commander.







                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • josepharose
                  ... his staff ... could not. As to Grant s mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                    > Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                    >
                    > Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on
                    his staff
                    > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical
                    > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                    could not.

                    As to Grant's mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered
                    that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                    ammunition. He had to be told that the weight of the ammo which he
                    requested was much too much for each wagonload, and that the number of
                    wagons would consequently have to be increased.

                    Joseph

                    > Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from
                    scratch.
                    > Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering
                    points for
                    > supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move
                    transportation to that part
                    > involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra
                    > wagons, horses, et al.
                    >
                    > As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered
                    > dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle.
                    Bring in that
                    > genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the
                    wherewithal to be
                    > ready the day before that.
                    >
                    > Thanks again.
                    > Ken
                  • Jfepperson@aol.com
                    Given Grant s distaste for mathematics ===== This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here. Mathematics was one of Grant s favorite (and best)
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                       
                      Given Grant's distaste for mathematics
                      =====
                      This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here.  Mathematics
                      was one of Grant's favorite (and best) subjects at West Point.
                       
                      JFE
                       

                      James F. Epperson
                      http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
                      http://members.aol.com/siege1864
                    • keeno2@aol.com
                      Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick up on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant sat up late
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick up on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant sat up late every night to relish the mathematical intricacies of calculating logistical necessities.
                      • hank9174
                        ... pick up ... sat up ... calculating logistical ... The tidbit on supply in the Moore article during a theoretical 1864 move on Gordonsville, Virginia is a
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                          > Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to
                          pick up
                          > on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant
                          sat up
                          > late every night to relish the mathematical intricacies of
                          calculating logistical
                          > necessities.

                          The tidbit on supply in the Moore article during a theoretical 1864
                          move on Gordonsville, Virginia is a useful counterweight to Krick's
                          assertion that the lack of such an 'obvious' move casts an aspersion on
                          Grant's generalship.


                          HankC
                        • Tom Mix
                          So? Kind of nit picky to me but what I have come to expect regarding any ANY comment on or about Grant. ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            So?
                            Kind of nit picky to me but what I have come to expect regarding any ANY
                            comment on or about Grant.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                            On Behalf Of josepharose
                            Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:17 PM
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                            > Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                            >
                            > Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on
                            his staff
                            > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His
                            logistical
                            > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                            could not.

                            As to Grant's mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered
                            that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                            ammunition. He had to be told that the weight of the ammo which he
                            requested was much too much for each wagonload, and that the number of
                            wagons would consequently have to be increased.

                            Joseph

                            > Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from
                            scratch.
                            > Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering
                            points for
                            > supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move
                            transportation to that part
                            > involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra

                            > wagons, horses, et al.
                            >
                            > As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered
                            > dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle.
                            Bring in that
                            > genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the
                            wherewithal to be
                            > ready the day before that.
                            >
                            > Thanks again.
                            > Ken






                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Tom Mix
                            No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician. ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment

                              No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician.

                               

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jfepperson@...
                              Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:26 PM
                              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                               

                               

                              Given Grant's distaste for mathematics

                              =====

                              This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here.  Mathematics

                              was one of Grant's favorite (and best) subjects at West Point.

                               

                              JFE

                               


                              James F. Epperson
                              http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
                              http://members.aol.com/siege1864

                               

                            • banbruner@aol.com
                              In a message dated 9/6/2005 11:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@insightbb.com writes: No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician and a grim
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 8, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In a message dated 9/6/2005 11:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@... writes:
                                No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician
                                and a grim mathematgician.
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.