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RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

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  • Bob Huddleston
    Are you referring to the butchered Voltaire quote? I think it your computer. The quote should be “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.” “Common sense is
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 1, 2005
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      Are you referring to the butchered Voltaire quote? I think it your computer. The quote should be
      “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.”
      “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire
       

      Take care,

      Bob

      Judy and Bob Huddleston
      10643 Sperry Street
      Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
      303.451.6376  huddleston.r@...

      “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.”
      “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire

       


      From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stanley Balsky
      Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 8:41 PM
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

      Is this my computer or is in the transmission
      Stan

      --- Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...> wrote:

      > Your first
      starting place should be the appendix to
      > the Luvaas, Army War College
      Guide to the Battle of
      > Antietam. Charles R. Shrader, “Field Logistics
      in
      > the Civil War.”
      >

      >
      > “Army
      Logistician,” the professional journal of
      > US Army logistics
      >
      <http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/Back.html
      > has a
      > number of articles on Civil War logistics, although
      >
      most are quite short and simplistic. One good one is
      > David Sabine,
      “The Role of Logistics in
      > Confederate Defeat” (Jan-Feb 1982, pp.
      12-16).
      > Another is William Kyle, “The logistics of the
      > Battle
      of Chickamauga,” (Sep-Oct 1986, pp. 26-30)
      >

      >
      > Journal of Military History (and its various name
      > changes) is
      available on line is you have access to
      > JSTAR, but that usually means a
      good university
      > library. Lots and lots of stuff in there!
      >

      >
      > Henry Halleck devoted Chapter IV of his
      Military Art
      > and Strategy to logistics. See
      >
      http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7
      >
      <http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7&c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc>
      >
      &c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc  for the text.
      >

      >
      > Huston, James A. The Sinews of War: Army
      Logistics,
      > 1775‑1953. is published by the Army as one of its
      >
      historical volumes. Not on line, but worth digging
      > out.
      >

      >
      > USAMHIs reference bibliographies have
      excellent
      > lists on practically any topic you want. The only
      >
      limit is that the lists are of their holdings. Check
      >
      href="http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/finding_aids.htm">http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/finding_aids.htm
      >
      >

      >
      > Take care,
      >
      >
      Bob
      >
      > Judy and Bob Huddleston
      > 10643 Sperry Street
      >
      Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
      > 303.451.6376 
      huddleston.r@...
      >
      > “Le sens communn’est pas si
      commun.”
      > “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire
      >
      >
      >

      >
      >



                 
      ____________________________________________________
      Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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    • profgrimsley
      One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article that is now almost half a century old: John G. Moore, Mobility and Strategy in the
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 2, 2005
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        One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article
        that is now almost half a century old:

        John G. Moore, "Mobility and Strategy in the Civil War" Military
        Affairs, Vol. 24, No. 2, Civil War Issue. (Summer, 1960), pp. 68-77.

        Stable URL:
        http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-3931%2819602
        2%2924%3A2%3C68%3AMASITC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T

        Its documentation is deceptively simple, but it has some pretty shrewd
        calculations about the extent to which Civil War armies of a given
        size could forage within a given area and, particularly, the demands
        of supplying an army at increasing distances from a railhead.

        The issue is available online (thus the Stable URL). But--so far as I
        know-- it can only be accessed through
        J-STOR (short for Journal Storage), and you'll need permission to
        do so. However, many college libraries and even some secondary
        schools subscribe to it, and you can get to it via their on-site
        computers. You can find a list participating institutions here:

        http://www.jstor.org/about/participants_na.html

        It's not so much that this single article is worth the trouble of
        gaining access to J-STOR, but there's such an abundance of scholarship
        available once you do get access that it's worth looking into.

        As an alternative, the Moore article is reprinted in _Military
        Analysis of the Civil War_ (KTO Press, 1977).

        Mark
      • keeno2@aol.com
        Wow! Thankss. The name sounded familiar, and fortunately, I have it. Will now take the time to read it. Ken
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 2, 2005
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          Wow! Thankss. The name sounded familiar, and fortunately, I have it.  Will now take the time to read it.
          Ken
        • keeno2@aol.com
          Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore s article. Given Grant s distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on his staff people who could reliably do
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 3, 2005
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            Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
             
            Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on his staff people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what could not.
             
            Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from scratch. Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering points for supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move transportation to that part involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra wagons, horses, et al.
             
            As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle. Bring in that genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the wherewithal to be ready the day before that.
             
            Thanks again.
            Ken
          • Harry Smeltzer
            The old saying goes Amateurs study tactics - professionals study logistics. I think this is mostly because tactics lends itself more easily to sweeping,
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 3, 2005
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              The old saying goes "Amateurs study tactics - professionals study
              logistics." I think this is mostly because tactics lends itself more easily
              to sweeping, romantic generalizations in relative vacuums. Logistics is
              complicated and mind numbingly dull - most amateurs see it more often than
              not as an "excuse" for the failure of tactics.

              Harry

              -----Original Message-----
              From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of profgrimsley
              Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:47 PM
              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

              One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article
              that is now almost half a century old:

              John G. Moore, "Mobility and Strategy in the Civil War" Military
              Affairs, Vol. 24, No. 2, Civil War Issue. (Summer, 1960), pp. 68-77.

              Stable URL:
              http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-3931%2819602
              2%2924%3A2%3C68%3AMASITC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T

              Its documentation is deceptively simple, but it has some pretty shrewd
              calculations about the extent to which Civil War armies of a given
              size could forage within a given area and, particularly, the demands
              of supplying an army at increasing distances from a railhead.

              The issue is available online (thus the Stable URL). But--so far as I
              know-- it can only be accessed through
              J-STOR (short for Journal Storage), and you'll need permission to
              do so. However, many college libraries and even some secondary
              schools subscribe to it, and you can get to it via their on-site
              computers. You can find a list participating institutions here:

              http://www.jstor.org/about/participants_na.html

              It's not so much that this single article is worth the trouble of
              gaining access to J-STOR, but there's such an abundance of scholarship
              available once you do get access that it's worth looking into.

              As an alternative, the Moore article is reprinted in _Military
              Analysis of the Civil War_ (KTO Press, 1977).

              Mark






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            • Norris Darrall
              ... , I suspect he simply kept on his staff ... could not. ... Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental Quartermaster and wartime
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                , I suspect he simply kept on his staff
                > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical
                > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                could not.
                >
                Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental
                Quartermaster and wartime experience during the Mexican War. He had
                first hand knowledge of lower level logistics requirements and
                hands-on methods. His grasp of this field contributed to his efforts
                as Army Commander.
              • keeno2@aol.com
                Thanks for pitching in, Norris. It s a given that Grant had some certifiably solid experience. I guess what I didn t make clear was that Moore s article was
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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                  Thanks for pitching in, Norris.
                   
                  It's a given that Grant had some certifiably solid experience. I guess what I didn't make clear was that Moore's article was frought with calculations that made my eyes cross, glaze, and eventually close. My intention was to suppose that he didn't personally make those calculations if, indeed, similar calculations were in use.
                   
                  Speed of the march and its front affect the ratio of human to animal food required for the movement. It is this sort of balance that I propose he intuitively knew.
                • Tom Mix
                  Plus he was an excellent mathematician having done well enough to have been offered a teaching position at the Point upon his graduation, according some
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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                    Plus he was an excellent mathematician having done well enough to have
                    been offered a teaching position at the Point upon his graduation,
                    according some objective Grant historians.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of Norris Darrall
                    Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 9:09 AM
                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                    , I suspect he simply kept on his staff
                    > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His
                    logistical
                    > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                    could not.
                    >
                    Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental
                    Quartermaster and wartime experience during the Mexican War. He had
                    first hand knowledge of lower level logistics requirements and
                    hands-on methods. His grasp of this field contributed to his efforts
                    as Army Commander.







                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • josepharose
                    ... his staff ... could not. As to Grant s mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                      > Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                      >
                      > Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on
                      his staff
                      > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical
                      > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                      could not.

                      As to Grant's mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered
                      that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                      ammunition. He had to be told that the weight of the ammo which he
                      requested was much too much for each wagonload, and that the number of
                      wagons would consequently have to be increased.

                      Joseph

                      > Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from
                      scratch.
                      > Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering
                      points for
                      > supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move
                      transportation to that part
                      > involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra
                      > wagons, horses, et al.
                      >
                      > As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered
                      > dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle.
                      Bring in that
                      > genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the
                      wherewithal to be
                      > ready the day before that.
                      >
                      > Thanks again.
                      > Ken
                    • Jfepperson@aol.com
                      Given Grant s distaste for mathematics ===== This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here. Mathematics was one of Grant s favorite (and best)
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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                        Given Grant's distaste for mathematics
                        =====
                        This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here.  Mathematics
                        was one of Grant's favorite (and best) subjects at West Point.
                         
                        JFE
                         

                        James F. Epperson
                        http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
                        http://members.aol.com/siege1864
                      • keeno2@aol.com
                        Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick up on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant sat up late
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
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                          Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick up on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant sat up late every night to relish the mathematical intricacies of calculating logistical necessities.
                        • hank9174
                          ... pick up ... sat up ... calculating logistical ... The tidbit on supply in the Moore article during a theoretical 1864 move on Gordonsville, Virginia is a
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
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                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                            > Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to
                            pick up
                            > on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant
                            sat up
                            > late every night to relish the mathematical intricacies of
                            calculating logistical
                            > necessities.

                            The tidbit on supply in the Moore article during a theoretical 1864
                            move on Gordonsville, Virginia is a useful counterweight to Krick's
                            assertion that the lack of such an 'obvious' move casts an aspersion on
                            Grant's generalship.


                            HankC
                          • Tom Mix
                            So? Kind of nit picky to me but what I have come to expect regarding any ANY comment on or about Grant. ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
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                              So?
                              Kind of nit picky to me but what I have come to expect regarding any ANY
                              comment on or about Grant.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                              On Behalf Of josepharose
                              Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:17 PM
                              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                              > Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                              >
                              > Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on
                              his staff
                              > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His
                              logistical
                              > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                              could not.

                              As to Grant's mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered
                              that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                              ammunition. He had to be told that the weight of the ammo which he
                              requested was much too much for each wagonload, and that the number of
                              wagons would consequently have to be increased.

                              Joseph

                              > Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from
                              scratch.
                              > Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering
                              points for
                              > supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move
                              transportation to that part
                              > involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra

                              > wagons, horses, et al.
                              >
                              > As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered
                              > dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle.
                              Bring in that
                              > genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the
                              wherewithal to be
                              > ready the day before that.
                              >
                              > Thanks again.
                              > Ken






                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • Tom Mix
                              No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician. ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
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                                No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician.

                                 

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jfepperson@...
                                Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:26 PM
                                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                                 

                                 

                                Given Grant's distaste for mathematics

                                =====

                                This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here.  Mathematics

                                was one of Grant's favorite (and best) subjects at West Point.

                                 

                                JFE

                                 


                                James F. Epperson
                                http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
                                http://members.aol.com/siege1864

                                 

                              • banbruner@aol.com
                                In a message dated 9/6/2005 11:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@insightbb.com writes: No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician and a grim
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                  In a message dated 9/6/2005 11:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@... writes:
                                  No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician
                                  and a grim mathematgician.
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