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RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

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  • Bob Huddleston
    Your first starting place should be the appendix to the Luvaas, Army War College Guide to the Battle of Antietam. Charles R. Shrader, “Field Logistics in the
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 1, 2005
      

      Your first starting place should be the appendix to the Luvaas, Army War College Guide to the Battle of Antietam. Charles R. Shrader, “Field Logistics in the Civil War.”

       

      “Army Logistician,” the professional journal of US Army logistics  <http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/Back.html

      > has a number of articles on Civil War logistics, although most are quite
      short and simplistic. One good one is David Sabine, “The Role of Logistics in Confederate Defeat” (Jan-Feb 1982, pp. 12-16). Another is William Kyle, “The logistics of the Battle of Chickamauga,” (Sep-Oct 1986, pp. 26-30)

       

      Journal of Military History (and its various name changes) is available on line is you have access to JSTAR, but that usually means a good university library. Lots and lots of stuff in there!

       

      Henry Halleck devoted Chapter IV of his Military Art and Strategy to logistics. See http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7&c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc  for the text.

       

      Huston, James A. The Sinews of War: Army Logistics, 1775‑1953. is published by the Army as one of its historical volumes. Not on line, but worth digging out.

       

      USAMHIs reference bibliographies have excellent lists on practically any topic you want. The only limit is that the lists are of their holdings. Check http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/finding_aids.htm

       

      Take care,

      Bob

      Judy and Bob Huddleston
      10643 Sperry Street
      Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
      303.451.6376  huddleston.r@...

      “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.”
      “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire

       

    • Stanley Balsky
      Is this my computer or is in the transmission Stan ... http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7 ...
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 1, 2005
        Is this my computer or is in the transmission
        Stan

        --- Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...> wrote:

        > Your first starting place should be the appendix to
        > the Luvaas, Army War College Guide to the Battle of
        > Antietam. Charles R. Shrader, “Field Logistics in
        > the Civil War.”
        >
        >
        >
        > “Army Logistician,” the professional journal of
        > US Army logistics
        > <http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/Back.html > has a
        > number of articles on Civil War logistics, although
        > most are quite short and simplistic. One good one is
        > David Sabine, “The Role of Logistics in
        > Confederate Defeat” (Jan-Feb 1982, pp. 12-16).
        > Another is William Kyle, “The logistics of the
        > Battle of Chickamauga,” (Sep-Oct 1986, pp. 26-30)
        >
        >
        >
        > Journal of Military History (and its various name
        > changes) is available on line is you have access to
        > JSTAR, but that usually means a good university
        > library. Lots and lots of stuff in there!
        >
        >
        >
        > Henry Halleck devoted Chapter IV of his Military Art
        > and Strategy to logistics. See
        >
        http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7
        >
        <http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7&c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc>
        > &c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc for the text.
        >
        >
        >
        > Huston, James A. The Sinews of War: Army Logistics,
        > 1775‑1953. is published by the Army as one of its
        > historical volumes. Not on line, but worth digging
        > out.
        >
        >
        >
        > USAMHIs reference bibliographies have excellent
        > lists on practically any topic you want. The only
        > limit is that the lists are of their holdings. Check
        > http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/finding_aids.htm
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Take care,
        >
        > Bob
        >
        > Judy and Bob Huddleston
        > 10643 Sperry Street
        > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
        > 303.451.6376 huddleston.r@...
        >
        > “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.”
        > “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >




        ____________________________________________________
        Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
        http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
      • Bob Huddleston
        Are you referring to the butchered Voltaire quote? I think it your computer. The quote should be “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.” “Common sense is
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 1, 2005
          
          Are you referring to the butchered Voltaire quote? I think it your computer. The quote should be
          “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.”
          “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire
           

          Take care,

          Bob

          Judy and Bob Huddleston
          10643 Sperry Street
          Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
          303.451.6376  huddleston.r@...

          “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.”
          “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire

           


          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stanley Balsky
          Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 8:41 PM
          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

          Is this my computer or is in the transmission
          Stan

          --- Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...> wrote:

          > Your first
          starting place should be the appendix to
          > the Luvaas, Army War College
          Guide to the Battle of
          > Antietam. Charles R. Shrader, “Field Logistics
          in
          > the Civil War.”
          >

          >
          > “Army
          Logistician,” the professional journal of
          > US Army logistics
          >
          <http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/Back.html
          > has a
          > number of articles on Civil War logistics, although
          >
          most are quite short and simplistic. One good one is
          > David Sabine,
          “The Role of Logistics in
          > Confederate Defeat” (Jan-Feb 1982, pp.
          12-16).
          > Another is William Kyle, “The logistics of the
          > Battle
          of Chickamauga,” (Sep-Oct 1986, pp. 26-30)
          >

          >
          > Journal of Military History (and its various name
          > changes) is
          available on line is you have access to
          > JSTAR, but that usually means a
          good university
          > library. Lots and lots of stuff in there!
          >

          >
          > Henry Halleck devoted Chapter IV of his
          Military Art
          > and Strategy to logistics. See
          >
          http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7
          >
          <http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7&c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc>
          >
          &c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc  for the text.
          >

          >
          > Huston, James A. The Sinews of War: Army
          Logistics,
          > 1775‑1953. is published by the Army as one of its
          >
          historical volumes. Not on line, but worth digging
          > out.
          >

          >
          > USAMHIs reference bibliographies have
          excellent
          > lists on practically any topic you want. The only
          >
          limit is that the lists are of their holdings. Check
          >
          href="http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/finding_aids.htm">http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/finding_aids.htm
          >
          >

          >
          > Take care,
          >
          >
          Bob
          >
          > Judy and Bob Huddleston
          > 10643 Sperry Street
          >
          Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
          > 303.451.6376 
          huddleston.r@...
          >
          > “Le sens communn’est pas si
          commun.”
          > “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire
          >
          >
          >

          >
          >



                     
          ____________________________________________________
          Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
          http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

        • profgrimsley
          One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article that is now almost half a century old: John G. Moore, Mobility and Strategy in the
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 2, 2005
            One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article
            that is now almost half a century old:

            John G. Moore, "Mobility and Strategy in the Civil War" Military
            Affairs, Vol. 24, No. 2, Civil War Issue. (Summer, 1960), pp. 68-77.

            Stable URL:
            http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-3931%2819602
            2%2924%3A2%3C68%3AMASITC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T

            Its documentation is deceptively simple, but it has some pretty shrewd
            calculations about the extent to which Civil War armies of a given
            size could forage within a given area and, particularly, the demands
            of supplying an army at increasing distances from a railhead.

            The issue is available online (thus the Stable URL). But--so far as I
            know-- it can only be accessed through
            J-STOR (short for Journal Storage), and you'll need permission to
            do so. However, many college libraries and even some secondary
            schools subscribe to it, and you can get to it via their on-site
            computers. You can find a list participating institutions here:

            http://www.jstor.org/about/participants_na.html

            It's not so much that this single article is worth the trouble of
            gaining access to J-STOR, but there's such an abundance of scholarship
            available once you do get access that it's worth looking into.

            As an alternative, the Moore article is reprinted in _Military
            Analysis of the Civil War_ (KTO Press, 1977).

            Mark
          • keeno2@aol.com
            Wow! Thankss. The name sounded familiar, and fortunately, I have it. Will now take the time to read it. Ken
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 2, 2005
              Wow! Thankss. The name sounded familiar, and fortunately, I have it.  Will now take the time to read it.
              Ken
            • keeno2@aol.com
              Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore s article. Given Grant s distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on his staff people who could reliably do
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 3, 2005
                Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                 
                Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on his staff people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what could not.
                 
                Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from scratch. Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering points for supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move transportation to that part involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra wagons, horses, et al.
                 
                As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle. Bring in that genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the wherewithal to be ready the day before that.
                 
                Thanks again.
                Ken
              • Harry Smeltzer
                The old saying goes Amateurs study tactics - professionals study logistics. I think this is mostly because tactics lends itself more easily to sweeping,
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 3, 2005
                  The old saying goes "Amateurs study tactics - professionals study
                  logistics." I think this is mostly because tactics lends itself more easily
                  to sweeping, romantic generalizations in relative vacuums. Logistics is
                  complicated and mind numbingly dull - most amateurs see it more often than
                  not as an "excuse" for the failure of tactics.

                  Harry

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of profgrimsley
                  Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:47 PM
                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                  One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article
                  that is now almost half a century old:

                  John G. Moore, "Mobility and Strategy in the Civil War" Military
                  Affairs, Vol. 24, No. 2, Civil War Issue. (Summer, 1960), pp. 68-77.

                  Stable URL:
                  http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-3931%2819602
                  2%2924%3A2%3C68%3AMASITC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T

                  Its documentation is deceptively simple, but it has some pretty shrewd
                  calculations about the extent to which Civil War armies of a given
                  size could forage within a given area and, particularly, the demands
                  of supplying an army at increasing distances from a railhead.

                  The issue is available online (thus the Stable URL). But--so far as I
                  know-- it can only be accessed through
                  J-STOR (short for Journal Storage), and you'll need permission to
                  do so. However, many college libraries and even some secondary
                  schools subscribe to it, and you can get to it via their on-site
                  computers. You can find a list participating institutions here:

                  http://www.jstor.org/about/participants_na.html

                  It's not so much that this single article is worth the trouble of
                  gaining access to J-STOR, but there's such an abundance of scholarship
                  available once you do get access that it's worth looking into.

                  As an alternative, the Moore article is reprinted in _Military
                  Analysis of the Civil War_ (KTO Press, 1977).

                  Mark






                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Norris Darrall
                  ... , I suspect he simply kept on his staff ... could not. ... Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental Quartermaster and wartime
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                    , I suspect he simply kept on his staff
                    > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical
                    > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                    could not.
                    >
                    Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental
                    Quartermaster and wartime experience during the Mexican War. He had
                    first hand knowledge of lower level logistics requirements and
                    hands-on methods. His grasp of this field contributed to his efforts
                    as Army Commander.
                  • keeno2@aol.com
                    Thanks for pitching in, Norris. It s a given that Grant had some certifiably solid experience. I guess what I didn t make clear was that Moore s article was
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                      Thanks for pitching in, Norris.
                       
                      It's a given that Grant had some certifiably solid experience. I guess what I didn't make clear was that Moore's article was frought with calculations that made my eyes cross, glaze, and eventually close. My intention was to suppose that he didn't personally make those calculations if, indeed, similar calculations were in use.
                       
                      Speed of the march and its front affect the ratio of human to animal food required for the movement. It is this sort of balance that I propose he intuitively knew.
                    • Tom Mix
                      Plus he was an excellent mathematician having done well enough to have been offered a teaching position at the Point upon his graduation, according some
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                        Plus he was an excellent mathematician having done well enough to have
                        been offered a teaching position at the Point upon his graduation,
                        according some objective Grant historians.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                        On Behalf Of Norris Darrall
                        Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 9:09 AM
                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                        , I suspect he simply kept on his staff
                        > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His
                        logistical
                        > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                        could not.
                        >
                        Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental
                        Quartermaster and wartime experience during the Mexican War. He had
                        first hand knowledge of lower level logistics requirements and
                        hands-on methods. His grasp of this field contributed to his efforts
                        as Army Commander.







                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • josepharose
                        ... his staff ... could not. As to Grant s mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                          > Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                          >
                          > Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on
                          his staff
                          > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical
                          > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                          could not.

                          As to Grant's mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered
                          that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                          ammunition. He had to be told that the weight of the ammo which he
                          requested was much too much for each wagonload, and that the number of
                          wagons would consequently have to be increased.

                          Joseph

                          > Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from
                          scratch.
                          > Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering
                          points for
                          > supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move
                          transportation to that part
                          > involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra
                          > wagons, horses, et al.
                          >
                          > As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered
                          > dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle.
                          Bring in that
                          > genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the
                          wherewithal to be
                          > ready the day before that.
                          >
                          > Thanks again.
                          > Ken
                        • Jfepperson@aol.com
                          Given Grant s distaste for mathematics ===== This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here. Mathematics was one of Grant s favorite (and best)
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                             
                            Given Grant's distaste for mathematics
                            =====
                            This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here.  Mathematics
                            was one of Grant's favorite (and best) subjects at West Point.
                             
                            JFE
                             

                            James F. Epperson
                            http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
                            http://members.aol.com/siege1864
                          • keeno2@aol.com
                            Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick up on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant sat up late
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                              Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick up on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant sat up late every night to relish the mathematical intricacies of calculating logistical necessities.
                            • hank9174
                              ... pick up ... sat up ... calculating logistical ... The tidbit on supply in the Moore article during a theoretical 1864 move on Gordonsville, Virginia is a
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                                > Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to
                                pick up
                                > on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant
                                sat up
                                > late every night to relish the mathematical intricacies of
                                calculating logistical
                                > necessities.

                                The tidbit on supply in the Moore article during a theoretical 1864
                                move on Gordonsville, Virginia is a useful counterweight to Krick's
                                assertion that the lack of such an 'obvious' move casts an aspersion on
                                Grant's generalship.


                                HankC
                              • Tom Mix
                                So? Kind of nit picky to me but what I have come to expect regarding any ANY comment on or about Grant. ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
                                  So?
                                  Kind of nit picky to me but what I have come to expect regarding any ANY
                                  comment on or about Grant.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                                  On Behalf Of josepharose
                                  Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:17 PM
                                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                                  > Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                                  >
                                  > Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on
                                  his staff
                                  > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His
                                  logistical
                                  > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                                  could not.

                                  As to Grant's mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered
                                  that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                                  ammunition. He had to be told that the weight of the ammo which he
                                  requested was much too much for each wagonload, and that the number of
                                  wagons would consequently have to be increased.

                                  Joseph

                                  > Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from
                                  scratch.
                                  > Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering
                                  points for
                                  > supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move
                                  transportation to that part
                                  > involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra

                                  > wagons, horses, et al.
                                  >
                                  > As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered
                                  > dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle.
                                  Bring in that
                                  > genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the
                                  wherewithal to be
                                  > ready the day before that.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks again.
                                  > Ken






                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Tom Mix
                                  No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician. ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005

                                    No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician.

                                     

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jfepperson@...
                                    Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:26 PM
                                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                                     

                                     

                                    Given Grant's distaste for mathematics

                                    =====

                                    This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here.  Mathematics

                                    was one of Grant's favorite (and best) subjects at West Point.

                                     

                                    JFE

                                     


                                    James F. Epperson
                                    http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
                                    http://members.aol.com/siege1864

                                     

                                  • banbruner@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 9/6/2005 11:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@insightbb.com writes: No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician and a grim
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 8, 2005
                                      In a message dated 9/6/2005 11:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@... writes:
                                      No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician
                                      and a grim mathematgician.
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