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Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

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  • hooperjwboro@comcast.net
    Wakefield, most certainly in jest. Just a wee bit of hurt feelings on the description. In seriousness, having traveled the route even before I-24 (Hwy 41 upand
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 1, 2005
      Wakefield, most certainly in jest. Just a wee bit of hurt feelings on the description.
       In seriousness, having traveled the route even before I-24 (Hwy 41 upand around MontEagle Mtn), I would hear your take on those logistics. Eg's   Defence, supply train(wagons) , infant., cavalry. From MBoro to the river. 
      --
      Respectfully,
      John Hooper
       
      -------------- Original message --------------
      A LOGISTICAL waste land! I hope your post was made in jest, because
      I can assure you I did not say nor mean to imply any of the
      beautiful land is a waste.
      Wakefield

      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, hooperjwboro@c... wrote:
      > Your remarks have merit, but we [all my compatriots] have never
      thought of our beautiful land as a waste.
      >
      > --
      > Respectfully,
      > John Hooper [Boro to Horseshoe Bend]
      >
      > -------------- Original message --------------
      > Very intresting stuff and I thank those who contributed
      information.
      > FWIW I have felt for a very long time that most people and
      historians
      > have never given adequate attention to just what a total
      > logistical 'black hole' the area south of Murfreesboro to the
      Coosa
      > River was to 19th century armies. Even today driving down the
      > interstates in this area I constantly marvel at how any large
      group of
      > soldiers where able to cross this mountainous waste land.
      > Regards-Wakefield
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      >  Visit your group "civilwarwest" on the web.
      >  
      >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >  civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >  
      >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service.


    • Bob Huddleston
      Your first starting place should be the appendix to the Luvaas, Army War College Guide to the Battle of Antietam. Charles R. Shrader, “Field Logistics in the
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 1, 2005
        

        Your first starting place should be the appendix to the Luvaas, Army War College Guide to the Battle of Antietam. Charles R. Shrader, “Field Logistics in the Civil War.”

         

        “Army Logistician,” the professional journal of US Army logistics  <http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/Back.html

        > has a number of articles on Civil War logistics, although most are quite
        short and simplistic. One good one is David Sabine, “The Role of Logistics in Confederate Defeat” (Jan-Feb 1982, pp. 12-16). Another is William Kyle, “The logistics of the Battle of Chickamauga,” (Sep-Oct 1986, pp. 26-30)

         

        Journal of Military History (and its various name changes) is available on line is you have access to JSTAR, but that usually means a good university library. Lots and lots of stuff in there!

         

        Henry Halleck devoted Chapter IV of his Military Art and Strategy to logistics. See http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7&c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc  for the text.

         

        Huston, James A. The Sinews of War: Army Logistics, 1775‑1953. is published by the Army as one of its historical volumes. Not on line, but worth digging out.

         

        USAMHIs reference bibliographies have excellent lists on practically any topic you want. The only limit is that the lists are of their holdings. Check http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/finding_aids.htm

         

        Take care,

        Bob

        Judy and Bob Huddleston
        10643 Sperry Street
        Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
        303.451.6376  huddleston.r@...

        “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.”
        “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire

         

      • Stanley Balsky
        Is this my computer or is in the transmission Stan ... http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7 ...
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 1, 2005
          Is this my computer or is in the transmission
          Stan

          --- Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...> wrote:

          > Your first starting place should be the appendix to
          > the Luvaas, Army War College Guide to the Battle of
          > Antietam. Charles R. Shrader, “Field Logistics in
          > the Civil War.”
          >
          >
          >
          > “Army Logistician,” the professional journal of
          > US Army logistics
          > <http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/Back.html > has a
          > number of articles on Civil War logistics, although
          > most are quite short and simplistic. One good one is
          > David Sabine, “The Role of Logistics in
          > Confederate Defeat” (Jan-Feb 1982, pp. 12-16).
          > Another is William Kyle, “The logistics of the
          > Battle of Chickamauga,” (Sep-Oct 1986, pp. 26-30)
          >
          >
          >
          > Journal of Military History (and its various name
          > changes) is available on line is you have access to
          > JSTAR, but that usually means a good university
          > library. Lots and lots of stuff in there!
          >
          >
          >
          > Henry Halleck devoted Chapter IV of his Military Art
          > and Strategy to logistics. See
          >
          http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7
          >
          <http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7&c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc>
          > &c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc for the text.
          >
          >
          >
          > Huston, James A. The Sinews of War: Army Logistics,
          > 1775‑1953. is published by the Army as one of its
          > historical volumes. Not on line, but worth digging
          > out.
          >
          >
          >
          > USAMHIs reference bibliographies have excellent
          > lists on practically any topic you want. The only
          > limit is that the lists are of their holdings. Check
          > http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/finding_aids.htm
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Take care,
          >
          > Bob
          >
          > Judy and Bob Huddleston
          > 10643 Sperry Street
          > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
          > 303.451.6376 huddleston.r@...
          >
          > “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.”
          > “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >




          ____________________________________________________
          Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
          http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
        • Bob Huddleston
          Are you referring to the butchered Voltaire quote? I think it your computer. The quote should be “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.” “Common sense is
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 1, 2005
            
            Are you referring to the butchered Voltaire quote? I think it your computer. The quote should be
            “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.”
            “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire
             

            Take care,

            Bob

            Judy and Bob Huddleston
            10643 Sperry Street
            Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
            303.451.6376  huddleston.r@...

            “Le sens communn’est pas si commun.”
            “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire

             


            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stanley Balsky
            Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 8:41 PM
            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

            Is this my computer or is in the transmission
            Stan

            --- Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...> wrote:

            > Your first
            starting place should be the appendix to
            > the Luvaas, Army War College
            Guide to the Battle of
            > Antietam. Charles R. Shrader, “Field Logistics
            in
            > the Civil War.”
            >

            >
            > “Army
            Logistician,” the professional journal of
            > US Army logistics
            >
            <http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/Back.html
            > has a
            > number of articles on Civil War logistics, although
            >
            most are quite short and simplistic. One good one is
            > David Sabine,
            “The Role of Logistics in
            > Confederate Defeat” (Jan-Feb 1982, pp.
            12-16).
            > Another is William Kyle, “The logistics of the
            > Battle
            of Chickamauga,” (Sep-Oct 1986, pp. 26-30)
            >

            >
            > Journal of Military History (and its various name
            > changes) is
            available on line is you have access to
            > JSTAR, but that usually means a
            good university
            > library. Lots and lots of stuff in there!
            >

            >
            > Henry Halleck devoted Chapter IV of his
            Military Art
            > and Strategy to logistics. See
            >
            http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7
            >
            <http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=3bc84072168b07d7&c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc>
            >
            &c=moa&idno=AGN0334.0001.001&view=toc  for the text.
            >

            >
            > Huston, James A. The Sinews of War: Army
            Logistics,
            > 1775‑1953. is published by the Army as one of its
            >
            historical volumes. Not on line, but worth digging
            > out.
            >

            >
            > USAMHIs reference bibliographies have
            excellent
            > lists on practically any topic you want. The only
            >
            limit is that the lists are of their holdings. Check
            >
            href="http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/finding_aids.htm">http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/finding_aids.htm
            >
            >

            >
            > Take care,
            >
            >
            Bob
            >
            > Judy and Bob Huddleston
            > 10643 Sperry Street
            >
            Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
            > 303.451.6376 
            huddleston.r@...
            >
            > “Le sens communn’est pas si
            commun.”
            > “Common sense is not so common.” Voltaire
            >
            >
            >

            >
            >



                       
            ____________________________________________________
            Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
            http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

          • profgrimsley
            One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article that is now almost half a century old: John G. Moore, Mobility and Strategy in the
            Message 5 of 23 , Sep 2, 2005
              One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article
              that is now almost half a century old:

              John G. Moore, "Mobility and Strategy in the Civil War" Military
              Affairs, Vol. 24, No. 2, Civil War Issue. (Summer, 1960), pp. 68-77.

              Stable URL:
              http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-3931%2819602
              2%2924%3A2%3C68%3AMASITC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T

              Its documentation is deceptively simple, but it has some pretty shrewd
              calculations about the extent to which Civil War armies of a given
              size could forage within a given area and, particularly, the demands
              of supplying an army at increasing distances from a railhead.

              The issue is available online (thus the Stable URL). But--so far as I
              know-- it can only be accessed through
              J-STOR (short for Journal Storage), and you'll need permission to
              do so. However, many college libraries and even some secondary
              schools subscribe to it, and you can get to it via their on-site
              computers. You can find a list participating institutions here:

              http://www.jstor.org/about/participants_na.html

              It's not so much that this single article is worth the trouble of
              gaining access to J-STOR, but there's such an abundance of scholarship
              available once you do get access that it's worth looking into.

              As an alternative, the Moore article is reprinted in _Military
              Analysis of the Civil War_ (KTO Press, 1977).

              Mark
            • keeno2@aol.com
              Wow! Thankss. The name sounded familiar, and fortunately, I have it. Will now take the time to read it. Ken
              Message 6 of 23 , Sep 2, 2005
                Wow! Thankss. The name sounded familiar, and fortunately, I have it.  Will now take the time to read it.
                Ken
              • keeno2@aol.com
                Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore s article. Given Grant s distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on his staff people who could reliably do
                Message 7 of 23 , Sep 3, 2005
                  Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                   
                  Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on his staff people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what could not.
                   
                  Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from scratch. Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering points for supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move transportation to that part involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra wagons, horses, et al.
                   
                  As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle. Bring in that genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the wherewithal to be ready the day before that.
                   
                  Thanks again.
                  Ken
                • Harry Smeltzer
                  The old saying goes Amateurs study tactics - professionals study logistics. I think this is mostly because tactics lends itself more easily to sweeping,
                  Message 8 of 23 , Sep 3, 2005
                    The old saying goes "Amateurs study tactics - professionals study
                    logistics." I think this is mostly because tactics lends itself more easily
                    to sweeping, romantic generalizations in relative vacuums. Logistics is
                    complicated and mind numbingly dull - most amateurs see it more often than
                    not as an "excuse" for the failure of tactics.

                    Harry

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of profgrimsley
                    Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 11:47 PM
                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                    One of the best introductions to the subject I have seen is an article
                    that is now almost half a century old:

                    John G. Moore, "Mobility and Strategy in the Civil War" Military
                    Affairs, Vol. 24, No. 2, Civil War Issue. (Summer, 1960), pp. 68-77.

                    Stable URL:
                    http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-3931%2819602
                    2%2924%3A2%3C68%3AMASITC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T

                    Its documentation is deceptively simple, but it has some pretty shrewd
                    calculations about the extent to which Civil War armies of a given
                    size could forage within a given area and, particularly, the demands
                    of supplying an army at increasing distances from a railhead.

                    The issue is available online (thus the Stable URL). But--so far as I
                    know-- it can only be accessed through
                    J-STOR (short for Journal Storage), and you'll need permission to
                    do so. However, many college libraries and even some secondary
                    schools subscribe to it, and you can get to it via their on-site
                    computers. You can find a list participating institutions here:

                    http://www.jstor.org/about/participants_na.html

                    It's not so much that this single article is worth the trouble of
                    gaining access to J-STOR, but there's such an abundance of scholarship
                    available once you do get access that it's worth looking into.

                    As an alternative, the Moore article is reprinted in _Military
                    Analysis of the Civil War_ (KTO Press, 1977).

                    Mark






                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Norris Darrall
                    ... , I suspect he simply kept on his staff ... could not. ... Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental Quartermaster and wartime
                    Message 9 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                      , I suspect he simply kept on his staff
                      > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical
                      > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                      could not.
                      >
                      Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental
                      Quartermaster and wartime experience during the Mexican War. He had
                      first hand knowledge of lower level logistics requirements and
                      hands-on methods. His grasp of this field contributed to his efforts
                      as Army Commander.
                    • keeno2@aol.com
                      Thanks for pitching in, Norris. It s a given that Grant had some certifiably solid experience. I guess what I didn t make clear was that Moore s article was
                      Message 10 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                        Thanks for pitching in, Norris.
                         
                        It's a given that Grant had some certifiably solid experience. I guess what I didn't make clear was that Moore's article was frought with calculations that made my eyes cross, glaze, and eventually close. My intention was to suppose that he didn't personally make those calculations if, indeed, similar calculations were in use.
                         
                        Speed of the march and its front affect the ratio of human to animal food required for the movement. It is this sort of balance that I propose he intuitively knew.
                      • Tom Mix
                        Plus he was an excellent mathematician having done well enough to have been offered a teaching position at the Point upon his graduation, according some
                        Message 11 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                          Plus he was an excellent mathematician having done well enough to have
                          been offered a teaching position at the Point upon his graduation,
                          according some objective Grant historians.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                          On Behalf Of Norris Darrall
                          Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 9:09 AM
                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                          , I suspect he simply kept on his staff
                          > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His
                          logistical
                          > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                          could not.
                          >
                          Grant had about five years experience (47-52) as a Regimental
                          Quartermaster and wartime experience during the Mexican War. He had
                          first hand knowledge of lower level logistics requirements and
                          hands-on methods. His grasp of this field contributed to his efforts
                          as Army Commander.







                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • josepharose
                          ... his staff ... could not. As to Grant s mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                            > Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                            >
                            > Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on
                            his staff
                            > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His logistical
                            > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                            could not.

                            As to Grant's mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered
                            that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                            ammunition. He had to be told that the weight of the ammo which he
                            requested was much too much for each wagonload, and that the number of
                            wagons would consequently have to be increased.

                            Joseph

                            > Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from
                            scratch.
                            > Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering
                            points for
                            > supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move
                            transportation to that part
                            > involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra
                            > wagons, horses, et al.
                            >
                            > As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered
                            > dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle.
                            Bring in that
                            > genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the
                            wherewithal to be
                            > ready the day before that.
                            >
                            > Thanks again.
                            > Ken
                          • Jfepperson@aol.com
                            Given Grant s distaste for mathematics ===== This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here. Mathematics was one of Grant s favorite (and best)
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                               
                              Given Grant's distaste for mathematics
                              =====
                              This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here.  Mathematics
                              was one of Grant's favorite (and best) subjects at West Point.
                               
                              JFE
                               

                              James F. Epperson
                              http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
                              http://members.aol.com/siege1864
                            • keeno2@aol.com
                              Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick up on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant sat up late
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 5, 2005
                                Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick up on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant sat up late every night to relish the mathematical intricacies of calculating logistical necessities.
                              • hank9174
                                ... pick up ... sat up ... calculating logistical ... The tidbit on supply in the Moore article during a theoretical 1864 move on Gordonsville, Virginia is a
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
                                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                                  > Mr. Epperson. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to
                                  pick up
                                  > on that statement. It may be even more ludicrous to think that Grant
                                  sat up
                                  > late every night to relish the mathematical intricacies of
                                  calculating logistical
                                  > necessities.

                                  The tidbit on supply in the Moore article during a theoretical 1864
                                  move on Gordonsville, Virginia is a useful counterweight to Krick's
                                  assertion that the lack of such an 'obvious' move casts an aspersion on
                                  Grant's generalship.


                                  HankC
                                • Tom Mix
                                  So? Kind of nit picky to me but what I have come to expect regarding any ANY comment on or about Grant. ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005
                                    So?
                                    Kind of nit picky to me but what I have come to expect regarding any ANY
                                    comment on or about Grant.

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                                    On Behalf Of josepharose
                                    Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:17 PM
                                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, keeno2@a... wrote:
                                    > Thanks, Mark, for the heads-up on Moore's article.
                                    >
                                    > Given Grant's distaste for mathematics, I suspect he simply kept on
                                    his staff
                                    > people who could reliably do those calculations for him. His
                                    logistical
                                    > "talent" was likely in intuitively knowing what could work and what
                                    could not.

                                    As to Grant's mathematical/logistical skills, IIRC, he once ordered
                                    that a certain number of wagons carry a specified amount of
                                    ammunition. He had to be told that the weight of the ammo which he
                                    requested was much too much for each wagonload, and that the number of
                                    wagons would consequently have to be increased.

                                    Joseph

                                    > Of course, when planning a move, he was not exactly starting from
                                    scratch.
                                    > Where his armies were parked at any given moment were gathering
                                    points for
                                    > supplies. To move any part of his army would be to move
                                    transportation to that part
                                    > involved. To move all of his army would involve the gathering of extra

                                    > wagons, horses, et al.
                                    >
                                    > As Moore pointed out, the speed of the march and the front it covered
                                    > dictated the availability of foraged sustenance. The factors boggle.
                                    Bring in that
                                    > genius Colonel. Tell him we're moving yesterday and I want the
                                    wherewithal to be
                                    > ready the day before that.
                                    >
                                    > Thanks again.
                                    > Ken






                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • Tom Mix
                                    No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician. ... From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Sep 6, 2005

                                      No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician.

                                       

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jfepperson@...
                                      Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 10:26 PM
                                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Logistics

                                       

                                       

                                      Given Grant's distaste for mathematics

                                      =====

                                      This is one of the more ludicrous things I have seen here.  Mathematics

                                      was one of Grant's favorite (and best) subjects at West Point.

                                       

                                      JFE

                                       


                                      James F. Epperson
                                      http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
                                      http://members.aol.com/siege1864

                                       

                                    • banbruner@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 9/6/2005 11:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@insightbb.com writes: No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician and a grim
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Sep 8, 2005
                                        In a message dated 9/6/2005 11:50:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@... writes:
                                        No doubt about it, Jim. Grant was a great mathematician
                                        and a grim mathematgician.
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.