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Re: [civilwarwest] Attrocities..........

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  • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
    In a message dated 7/1/2005 2:31:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, banbruner@aol.com writes: Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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      In a message dated 7/1/2005 2:31:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, banbruner@... writes:
      Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that addresses atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.
      Bill Bruner

      There was a tribunal held with Sherman at the head of the tribunal.  As you all know, Forrest was you might say, the fly in Sherman's ointment during the war and probably caused many a red hair on his head to turn gray.  Sherman's tribunal exonerated Forrest for the Ft Pillow incident.
       
      JEJ
    • Dave Gorski
      ... Friendly Fire in the Civil War, by Webb Garrison, has many stories of such incidents, both accidental and deliberate. Regards, Dave Gorski
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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        > Would any body know of any "non-fiction", Diaries?? That
        >speak of "internal attrocities", such as "fragging","questionable
        >friendlyfire"???

        "Friendly Fire in the Civil War," by Webb Garrison, has many stories
        of such incidents, both accidental and deliberate.

        Regards, Dave Gorski
      • Rick Moody
        ... The trial of Henry Wirtz. Andersonville I m sure there were more, like the large contingent of Senators and others who wanted Lee hanged. If you took the
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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          --- banbruner@... wrote:

          > Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held
          > after th CW that addresses
          > atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.
          > Bill Bruner
          >

          The trial of Henry Wirtz. Andersonville
          I'm sure there were more, like the large contingent of
          Senators and others who wanted Lee hanged. If you
          took the loyalty oath and abided by the tearms of
          surrender, Grant frequently interceeded.



          Rick Moody
          r_moody@...

          "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
          -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's military secretary.

          "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear. Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is brave."
          -- Mark Twain



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        • Rick Moody
          ... Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants decision to cease prisoner exchanges? Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants decision to
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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            --- Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:

            > Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see if
            > charges should be
            > brought. Sherman exonerated Forrest and that was
            > the end of it. And
            > remember Sherman respected him as a General but not
            > in any other way.
            > Still, he fairly investigated and found nothing.
            >
            > Tom

            Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
            decision to cease prisoner exchanges?

            Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
            decision to stop the exchange?

            Was the decision based solely upon the souths
            unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?

            I am here to learn, so the more info you can provide
            will be appreciated.


            Rick Moody
            r_moody@...

            "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
            -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's military secretary.

            "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear. Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is brave."
            -- Mark Twain

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          • Rick Moody
            Thank You Dick, I was in the process of reading the document you refered to. Your site is the best overall site on the web. You have more of what really
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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              Thank You Dick,

              I was in the process of reading the document you
              refered to. Your site is the best overall site on the
              web. You have more of what "really" matters than
              anyone else. You should have some affiliate programs
              going. I will use them if you put some up.

              I was trying to determine the cause for the end of
              prisoner exchanges. I was/am of the opinion that
              Grant wanted it stopped, however, some sites say that
              it was Lincoln who stopped it. I was also trying to
              get in my mind a proper time line for Shermans
              involvement in the investigation. Since Sherman would
              later demand that they "bankrupt the treasury" if that
              is what it took to kill/stop Forrest.

              During my bootcamp we were told, because you wear the
              uniform you should expect "No Quarter" and if you
              surrender you are on your own. If your captor chooses
              to abide by the Geneva Convention then your lucky.

              The North has never forgiven Forrest and the South has
              never forgiven Sherman. That is War.

              Grant said
              "I am not egotist enough to suppose all this
              significance should be given because I was the object
              of it. But the war between the States was a very
              bloody and a very costly war. One side or the other
              had to yield principles they deemed dearer than life
              before it could be brought to an end."

              Rick Moody


              --- Dick Weeks <shotgun@...> wrote:

              > Rick, I don't want to take sides in this battle over
              > the atrocities that
              > Forrest may or may not have committed. Suffice it,
              > I think he was one of
              > the best battlefield generals in the Western Theater
              > on either side. As far
              > as Fort Pillow goes, one of the best descriptions of
              > it that I have read is
              > in Henry's book "First With The Most." I took the
              > liberty of putting that
              > portion on my website some years back.
              >
              > http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestpillow.htm
              >
              > Some more interesting material on Forrest can be
              > found in the Official
              > Records. Here is a little something that I have on
              > my website:
              >
              >
              http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestcorrespondence.htm
              >
              > The bottom line is that you can love him or hate him
              > but you can't take away
              > his military skills and his love of his men. At
              > Fort Donelson, when he
              > found out they were going to surrender, he basically
              > said that he did not
              > bring his command there to surrender. He was
              > leaving and anyone who wanted
              > to go with him was welcome. When he left, virtually
              > every man in his
              > command was riding double. If we are going to try
              > him in the court of
              > modern day opinion I certainly hope we are not going
              > to try him alone.
              > There are plenty of "atrocities" to go around on
              > both sides. Personally I
              > had rather look at his military record and let it
              > stand at that. Just my
              > opinion of course.
              >
              > I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
              > Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
              > http://www.civilwarhome.com
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Rick Moody" <r_moody@...>
              > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 4:15 PM
              > Subject: RE: [civilwarwest]
              > Attrocities.......(Question)
              >
              >
              > > --- Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see
              > if
              > > > charges should be
              > > > brought. Sherman exonerated Forrest and that
              > was
              > > > the end of it. And
              > > > remember Sherman respected him as a General but
              > not
              > > > in any other way.
              > > > Still, he fairly investigated and found nothing.
              > > >
              > > > Tom
              > >
              > > Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
              > > decision to cease prisoner exchanges?
              > >
              > > Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on
              > Grants
              > > decision to stop the exchange?
              > >
              > > Was the decision based solely upon the souths
              > > unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?
              > >
              > > I am here to learn, so the more info you can
              > provide
              > > will be appreciated.
              > >
              > >
              > > Rick Moody
              > > r_moody@...
              > >
              > > "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past.
              > Tears make a bitter
              > throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
              > > -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the
              > Iroquois and General Grant's
              > military secretary.
              > >
              > > "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear,
              > not absence of fear.
              > Except a creature be part coward, it is not a
              > compliment to say it is
              > brave."
              > > -- Mark Twain
              > >
              > > __________________________________________________
              > > Do You Yahoo!?
              > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
              > protection around
              > > http://mail.yahoo.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >


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            • keeno2@aol.com
              Don t know about diaries. Did read about Bragg being fragged in Mexico. Remember J.C. Davis causing Nelson to leak down to room temperature. There is a report
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                Don't know about diaries. Did read about Bragg being fragged in Mexico. Remember J.C. Davis causing Nelson to leak down to room temperature.
                 
                There is a report on a unit at Shiloh (Louisiana, iirc) that returned unfriendly fire on another confederate unit that gave them some friendly. When admonished for the return fire, the generally reported comment was something like: "Colonel, when we get shot at, we shoot back."
                 
                There are indications that, perhaps, some blue-clad white troops fired on similarly clad black troops and vice versa. That one hasn't been substantiated satisfactorily, however. If you run across any, I'd be pleased to hear about them.
              • keeno2@aol.com
                I ll add my thanks to yours and agree to your assessment of Shotgun s site. It s my understanding that Grant and Stanton wanted it stopped, but Lincoln was the
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                  I'll add my thanks to yours and agree to your assessment of Shotgun's site.
                   
                  It's my understanding that Grant and Stanton wanted it stopped, but Lincoln was the one with authority to stop it.
                   
                  I'll try not to stir the fire ants when I recall that the primary reasons Grant wanted it stopped was that (a) the Confederacy refused to trade man for man, officer for officer (blacks were a non-issue and their whie officers were frequently not available for repatriation), (b) the Confederacy had cheated on sending troops parolled at Vicksburg back into battle before being exchanged (most likely disproved).
                   
                  Stanton's reasons were substantially the same, but there exists a considered opinion that both heartlessly and cruelly let Union soldiers suffer as POW's to deprive the Confederacy of much-needed manpower.
                   
                • Steve Saultz
                  ...Thankyou Dave!....... Dave Gorski wrote: Would any body know of any non-fiction , Diaries?? That ... Friendly Fire in
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                    ...Thankyou Dave!.......

                    Dave Gorski <bigg@...> wrote:
                    >           Would any body know of any "non-fiction", Diaries?? That
                    >speak of "internal attrocities", such as "fragging","questionable
                    >friendlyfire"???

                       "Friendly Fire in the Civil War," by Webb Garrison, has many stories
                    of such incidents, both accidental and deliberate.

                       Regards,  Dave Gorski
                  • Jfepperson@aol.com
                    Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants decision to cease prisoner exchanges? Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants decision to stop
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                       Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                      decision to cease prisoner exchanges? 

                      Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
                      decision to stop the exchange? 

                      Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                      unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?

                      =====
                       
                      You are confused.  The cartel was suspended in July, 1863, by
                      order of Secretary of War Stanton.  Grant had nothing to do with
                      it.
                       
                      JFE
                    • Dick Weeks
                      Rick, I don t want to take sides in this battle over the atrocities that Forrest may or may not have committed. Suffice it, I think he was one of the best
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                        Rick, I don't want to take sides in this battle over the atrocities that
                        Forrest may or may not have committed. Suffice it, I think he was one of
                        the best battlefield generals in the Western Theater on either side. As far
                        as Fort Pillow goes, one of the best descriptions of it that I have read is
                        in Henry's book "First With The Most." I took the liberty of putting that
                        portion on my website some years back.

                        http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestpillow.htm

                        Some more interesting material on Forrest can be found in the Official
                        Records. Here is a little something that I have on my website:

                        http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestcorrespondence.htm

                        The bottom line is that you can love him or hate him but you can't take away
                        his military skills and his love of his men. At Fort Donelson, when he
                        found out they were going to surrender, he basically said that he did not
                        bring his command there to surrender. He was leaving and anyone who wanted
                        to go with him was welcome. When he left, virtually every man in his
                        command was riding double. If we are going to try him in the court of
                        modern day opinion I certainly hope we are not going to try him alone.
                        There are plenty of "atrocities" to go around on both sides. Personally I
                        had rather look at his military record and let it stand at that. Just my
                        opinion of course.

                        I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                        Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                        http://www.civilwarhome.com

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Rick Moody" <r_moody@...>
                        To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 4:15 PM
                        Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Attrocities.......(Question)


                        > --- Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see if
                        > > charges should be
                        > > brought. Sherman exonerated Forrest and that was
                        > > the end of it. And
                        > > remember Sherman respected him as a General but not
                        > > in any other way.
                        > > Still, he fairly investigated and found nothing.
                        > >
                        > > Tom
                        >
                        > Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                        > decision to cease prisoner exchanges?
                        >
                        > Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
                        > decision to stop the exchange?
                        >
                        > Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                        > unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?
                        >
                        > I am here to learn, so the more info you can provide
                        > will be appreciated.
                        >
                        >
                        > Rick Moody
                        > r_moody@...
                        >
                        > "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter
                        throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                        > -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's
                        military secretary.
                        >
                        > "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear.
                        Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is
                        brave."
                        > -- Mark Twain
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • keeno2@aol.com
                        Sherman s investigation couldn t have occured much before the surrenders. The decision not to exchange prisoners had nothing to do with the finding. Basing
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                          Sherman's investigation couldn't have occured much before the surrenders.
                           
                          The decision not to exchange prisoners had nothing to do with the finding.
                           
                          Basing that particular decision solely on the refusal to repatriate black prisoners is not likely. It did, however, look good in the press.
                           
                          If I might parrot our esteemed colleague: Hey, I'm extrapolating some things that might not exactly be accurate.
                        • Michael McKinnon
                          Rick, I believe Wirz was the only one tried, and that was a travesty. Michael ... The trial of Henry Wirtz. Andersonville I m sure there were more, like the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 2, 2005
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                            Rick,
                             
                            I believe Wirz was the only one tried, and that was a travesty.
                             
                            Michael

                            Rick Moody <r_moody@...> wrote:
                            --- banbruner@... wrote:

                            > Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held
                            > after th CW that addresses
                            > atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.
                            > Bill Bruner
                            >

                            The trial of Henry Wirtz.  Andersonville
                            I'm sure there were more, like the large contingent of
                            Senators and others who wanted Lee hanged.  If you
                            took the loyalty oath and abided by the tearms of
                            surrender, Grant frequently interceeded. 



                            Rick Moody
                            r_moody@...

                            "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                            -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's military secretary.

                            "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear.  Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is brave."
                            -- Mark Twain


                                       
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                          • Michael McKinnon
                            I believe you are mistaken. Grant had a great deal to do with it. Michael Jfepperson@aol.com wrote: Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 2, 2005
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                              I believe you are mistaken.  Grant had a great deal to do with it.
                               
                              Michael

                              Jfepperson@... wrote:
                               
                               Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                              decision to cease prisoner exchanges? 

                              Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
                              decision to stop the exchange? 

                              Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                              unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?

                              =====
                               
                              You are confused.  The cartel was suspended in July, 1863, by
                              order of Secretary of War Stanton.  Grant had nothing to do with
                              it.
                               
                              JFE

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                            • James F. Epperson
                              ... But not until 1864, and the cartel was suspended in July, 1863. Grant s role was to keep in place a policy that had been formulated the year before. Now,
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 2, 2005
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                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Michael McKinnon
                                <tsjdmxm2000@y...> wrote:
                                > I believe you are mistaken. Grant had a great deal to do with it.

                                But not until 1864, and the cartel was suspended in July, 1863.
                                Grant's role was to keep in place a policy that had been formulated
                                the year before. Now, he did this because he agreed with the
                                policy, of course. But the decision to suspend the cartel was
                                not Grant's.

                                JFE
                              • Dick Weeks
                                Thanks Jim. I knew you were right but it had been so long since I looked at this prisoner exchange issue I was not sure of all the details so I decided to do
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 2, 2005
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                                  Thanks Jim. I knew you were right but it had been so long since I looked at
                                  this prisoner exchange issue I was not sure of all the details so I decided
                                  to do a little reading. I found a really good explanation of it and stuck
                                  the article on my website for those that might not have it in their library.
                                  The "source" is at the end of the article.

                                  http://www.civilwarhome.com/prisonerexchange.htm

                                  I hope this helps clear up some of the misunderstandings that others,
                                  including myself, might have on the issue.

                                  I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                                  Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                                  http://www.civilwarhome.com

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "James F. Epperson" <Jfepperson@...>
                                  To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 5:24 AM
                                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Attrocities.......(Question)


                                  > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Michael McKinnon
                                  > <tsjdmxm2000@y...> wrote:
                                  > > I believe you are mistaken. Grant had a great deal to do with it.
                                  >
                                  > But not until 1864, and the cartel was suspended in July, 1863.
                                  > Grant's role was to keep in place a policy that had been formulated
                                  > the year before. Now, he did this because he agreed with the
                                  > policy, of course. But the decision to suspend the cartel was
                                  > not Grant's.
                                  >
                                  > JFE
                                • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 7/1/2005 7:15:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, r_moody@yahoo.com writes: Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants decision to cease
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 2, 2005
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                                    In a message dated 7/1/2005 7:15:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, r_moody@... writes:
                                    Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                                    decision to cease prisoner exchanges? 

                                    The tribunal headed by Sherman to investigate NBF and the Ft Pillow affair was after the war ended and had nothing to do with prisoner exchange.
                                     
                                    JEJ
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