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Re: [civilwarwest] Attrocities..........

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  • banbruner@aol.com
    Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that addresses atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged. Bill Bruner
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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      Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that addresses atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.
      Bill Bruner
    • Tom Mix
      Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see if charges should be brought. Sherman exonerated Forrest and that was the end of it. And remember Sherman
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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        Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see if charges should be brought.  Sherman exonerated Forrest and that was the end of it.  And remember Sherman respected him as a General but not in any other way.  Still, he fairly investigated and found nothing.

        Tom

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of banbruner@...
        Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 1:30 PM
        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Attrocities..........

         

        Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that addresses atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.

        Bill Bruner

         

      • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/1/2005 2:31:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, banbruner@aol.com writes: Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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          In a message dated 7/1/2005 2:31:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, banbruner@... writes:
          Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that addresses atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.
          Bill Bruner

          There was a tribunal held with Sherman at the head of the tribunal.  As you all know, Forrest was you might say, the fly in Sherman's ointment during the war and probably caused many a red hair on his head to turn gray.  Sherman's tribunal exonerated Forrest for the Ft Pillow incident.
           
          JEJ
        • Dave Gorski
          ... Friendly Fire in the Civil War, by Webb Garrison, has many stories of such incidents, both accidental and deliberate. Regards, Dave Gorski
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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            > Would any body know of any "non-fiction", Diaries?? That
            >speak of "internal attrocities", such as "fragging","questionable
            >friendlyfire"???

            "Friendly Fire in the Civil War," by Webb Garrison, has many stories
            of such incidents, both accidental and deliberate.

            Regards, Dave Gorski
          • Rick Moody
            ... The trial of Henry Wirtz. Andersonville I m sure there were more, like the large contingent of Senators and others who wanted Lee hanged. If you took the
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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              --- banbruner@... wrote:

              > Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held
              > after th CW that addresses
              > atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.
              > Bill Bruner
              >

              The trial of Henry Wirtz. Andersonville
              I'm sure there were more, like the large contingent of
              Senators and others who wanted Lee hanged. If you
              took the loyalty oath and abided by the tearms of
              surrender, Grant frequently interceeded.



              Rick Moody
              r_moody@...

              "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
              -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's military secretary.

              "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear. Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is brave."
              -- Mark Twain



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            • Rick Moody
              ... Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants decision to cease prisoner exchanges? Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants decision to
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                --- Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:

                > Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see if
                > charges should be
                > brought. Sherman exonerated Forrest and that was
                > the end of it. And
                > remember Sherman respected him as a General but not
                > in any other way.
                > Still, he fairly investigated and found nothing.
                >
                > Tom

                Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                decision to cease prisoner exchanges?

                Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
                decision to stop the exchange?

                Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?

                I am here to learn, so the more info you can provide
                will be appreciated.


                Rick Moody
                r_moody@...

                "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's military secretary.

                "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear. Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is brave."
                -- Mark Twain

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              • Rick Moody
                Thank You Dick, I was in the process of reading the document you refered to. Your site is the best overall site on the web. You have more of what really
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                  Thank You Dick,

                  I was in the process of reading the document you
                  refered to. Your site is the best overall site on the
                  web. You have more of what "really" matters than
                  anyone else. You should have some affiliate programs
                  going. I will use them if you put some up.

                  I was trying to determine the cause for the end of
                  prisoner exchanges. I was/am of the opinion that
                  Grant wanted it stopped, however, some sites say that
                  it was Lincoln who stopped it. I was also trying to
                  get in my mind a proper time line for Shermans
                  involvement in the investigation. Since Sherman would
                  later demand that they "bankrupt the treasury" if that
                  is what it took to kill/stop Forrest.

                  During my bootcamp we were told, because you wear the
                  uniform you should expect "No Quarter" and if you
                  surrender you are on your own. If your captor chooses
                  to abide by the Geneva Convention then your lucky.

                  The North has never forgiven Forrest and the South has
                  never forgiven Sherman. That is War.

                  Grant said
                  "I am not egotist enough to suppose all this
                  significance should be given because I was the object
                  of it. But the war between the States was a very
                  bloody and a very costly war. One side or the other
                  had to yield principles they deemed dearer than life
                  before it could be brought to an end."

                  Rick Moody


                  --- Dick Weeks <shotgun@...> wrote:

                  > Rick, I don't want to take sides in this battle over
                  > the atrocities that
                  > Forrest may or may not have committed. Suffice it,
                  > I think he was one of
                  > the best battlefield generals in the Western Theater
                  > on either side. As far
                  > as Fort Pillow goes, one of the best descriptions of
                  > it that I have read is
                  > in Henry's book "First With The Most." I took the
                  > liberty of putting that
                  > portion on my website some years back.
                  >
                  > http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestpillow.htm
                  >
                  > Some more interesting material on Forrest can be
                  > found in the Official
                  > Records. Here is a little something that I have on
                  > my website:
                  >
                  >
                  http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestcorrespondence.htm
                  >
                  > The bottom line is that you can love him or hate him
                  > but you can't take away
                  > his military skills and his love of his men. At
                  > Fort Donelson, when he
                  > found out they were going to surrender, he basically
                  > said that he did not
                  > bring his command there to surrender. He was
                  > leaving and anyone who wanted
                  > to go with him was welcome. When he left, virtually
                  > every man in his
                  > command was riding double. If we are going to try
                  > him in the court of
                  > modern day opinion I certainly hope we are not going
                  > to try him alone.
                  > There are plenty of "atrocities" to go around on
                  > both sides. Personally I
                  > had rather look at his military record and let it
                  > stand at that. Just my
                  > opinion of course.
                  >
                  > I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                  > Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                  > http://www.civilwarhome.com
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Rick Moody" <r_moody@...>
                  > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 4:15 PM
                  > Subject: RE: [civilwarwest]
                  > Attrocities.......(Question)
                  >
                  >
                  > > --- Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see
                  > if
                  > > > charges should be
                  > > > brought. Sherman exonerated Forrest and that
                  > was
                  > > > the end of it. And
                  > > > remember Sherman respected him as a General but
                  > not
                  > > > in any other way.
                  > > > Still, he fairly investigated and found nothing.
                  > > >
                  > > > Tom
                  > >
                  > > Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                  > > decision to cease prisoner exchanges?
                  > >
                  > > Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on
                  > Grants
                  > > decision to stop the exchange?
                  > >
                  > > Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                  > > unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?
                  > >
                  > > I am here to learn, so the more info you can
                  > provide
                  > > will be appreciated.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Rick Moody
                  > > r_moody@...
                  > >
                  > > "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past.
                  > Tears make a bitter
                  > throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                  > > -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the
                  > Iroquois and General Grant's
                  > military secretary.
                  > >
                  > > "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear,
                  > not absence of fear.
                  > Except a creature be part coward, it is not a
                  > compliment to say it is
                  > brave."
                  > > -- Mark Twain
                  > >
                  > > __________________________________________________
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                  > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                  > protection around
                  > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >


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                • keeno2@aol.com
                  Don t know about diaries. Did read about Bragg being fragged in Mexico. Remember J.C. Davis causing Nelson to leak down to room temperature. There is a report
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                    Don't know about diaries. Did read about Bragg being fragged in Mexico. Remember J.C. Davis causing Nelson to leak down to room temperature.
                     
                    There is a report on a unit at Shiloh (Louisiana, iirc) that returned unfriendly fire on another confederate unit that gave them some friendly. When admonished for the return fire, the generally reported comment was something like: "Colonel, when we get shot at, we shoot back."
                     
                    There are indications that, perhaps, some blue-clad white troops fired on similarly clad black troops and vice versa. That one hasn't been substantiated satisfactorily, however. If you run across any, I'd be pleased to hear about them.
                  • keeno2@aol.com
                    I ll add my thanks to yours and agree to your assessment of Shotgun s site. It s my understanding that Grant and Stanton wanted it stopped, but Lincoln was the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                      I'll add my thanks to yours and agree to your assessment of Shotgun's site.
                       
                      It's my understanding that Grant and Stanton wanted it stopped, but Lincoln was the one with authority to stop it.
                       
                      I'll try not to stir the fire ants when I recall that the primary reasons Grant wanted it stopped was that (a) the Confederacy refused to trade man for man, officer for officer (blacks were a non-issue and their whie officers were frequently not available for repatriation), (b) the Confederacy had cheated on sending troops parolled at Vicksburg back into battle before being exchanged (most likely disproved).
                       
                      Stanton's reasons were substantially the same, but there exists a considered opinion that both heartlessly and cruelly let Union soldiers suffer as POW's to deprive the Confederacy of much-needed manpower.
                       
                    • Steve Saultz
                      ...Thankyou Dave!....... Dave Gorski wrote: Would any body know of any non-fiction , Diaries?? That ... Friendly Fire in
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                        ...Thankyou Dave!.......

                        Dave Gorski <bigg@...> wrote:
                        >           Would any body know of any "non-fiction", Diaries?? That
                        >speak of "internal attrocities", such as "fragging","questionable
                        >friendlyfire"???

                           "Friendly Fire in the Civil War," by Webb Garrison, has many stories
                        of such incidents, both accidental and deliberate.

                           Regards,  Dave Gorski
                      • Jfepperson@aol.com
                        Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants decision to cease prisoner exchanges? Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants decision to stop
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                           Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                          decision to cease prisoner exchanges? 

                          Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
                          decision to stop the exchange? 

                          Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                          unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?

                          =====
                           
                          You are confused.  The cartel was suspended in July, 1863, by
                          order of Secretary of War Stanton.  Grant had nothing to do with
                          it.
                           
                          JFE
                        • Dick Weeks
                          Rick, I don t want to take sides in this battle over the atrocities that Forrest may or may not have committed. Suffice it, I think he was one of the best
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                            Rick, I don't want to take sides in this battle over the atrocities that
                            Forrest may or may not have committed. Suffice it, I think he was one of
                            the best battlefield generals in the Western Theater on either side. As far
                            as Fort Pillow goes, one of the best descriptions of it that I have read is
                            in Henry's book "First With The Most." I took the liberty of putting that
                            portion on my website some years back.

                            http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestpillow.htm

                            Some more interesting material on Forrest can be found in the Official
                            Records. Here is a little something that I have on my website:

                            http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestcorrespondence.htm

                            The bottom line is that you can love him or hate him but you can't take away
                            his military skills and his love of his men. At Fort Donelson, when he
                            found out they were going to surrender, he basically said that he did not
                            bring his command there to surrender. He was leaving and anyone who wanted
                            to go with him was welcome. When he left, virtually every man in his
                            command was riding double. If we are going to try him in the court of
                            modern day opinion I certainly hope we are not going to try him alone.
                            There are plenty of "atrocities" to go around on both sides. Personally I
                            had rather look at his military record and let it stand at that. Just my
                            opinion of course.

                            I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                            Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                            http://www.civilwarhome.com

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Rick Moody" <r_moody@...>
                            To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 4:15 PM
                            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Attrocities.......(Question)


                            > --- Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see if
                            > > charges should be
                            > > brought. Sherman exonerated Forrest and that was
                            > > the end of it. And
                            > > remember Sherman respected him as a General but not
                            > > in any other way.
                            > > Still, he fairly investigated and found nothing.
                            > >
                            > > Tom
                            >
                            > Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                            > decision to cease prisoner exchanges?
                            >
                            > Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
                            > decision to stop the exchange?
                            >
                            > Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                            > unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?
                            >
                            > I am here to learn, so the more info you can provide
                            > will be appreciated.
                            >
                            >
                            > Rick Moody
                            > r_moody@...
                            >
                            > "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter
                            throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                            > -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's
                            military secretary.
                            >
                            > "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear.
                            Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is
                            brave."
                            > -- Mark Twain
                            >
                            > __________________________________________________
                            > Do You Yahoo!?
                            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                            > http://mail.yahoo.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • keeno2@aol.com
                            Sherman s investigation couldn t have occured much before the surrenders. The decision not to exchange prisoners had nothing to do with the finding. Basing
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 1, 2005
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                              Sherman's investigation couldn't have occured much before the surrenders.
                               
                              The decision not to exchange prisoners had nothing to do with the finding.
                               
                              Basing that particular decision solely on the refusal to repatriate black prisoners is not likely. It did, however, look good in the press.
                               
                              If I might parrot our esteemed colleague: Hey, I'm extrapolating some things that might not exactly be accurate.
                            • Michael McKinnon
                              Rick, I believe Wirz was the only one tried, and that was a travesty. Michael ... The trial of Henry Wirtz. Andersonville I m sure there were more, like the
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 2, 2005
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                                Rick,
                                 
                                I believe Wirz was the only one tried, and that was a travesty.
                                 
                                Michael

                                Rick Moody <r_moody@...> wrote:
                                --- banbruner@... wrote:

                                > Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held
                                > after th CW that addresses
                                > atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.
                                > Bill Bruner
                                >

                                The trial of Henry Wirtz.  Andersonville
                                I'm sure there were more, like the large contingent of
                                Senators and others who wanted Lee hanged.  If you
                                took the loyalty oath and abided by the tearms of
                                surrender, Grant frequently interceeded. 



                                Rick Moody
                                r_moody@...

                                "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                                -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's military secretary.

                                "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear.  Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is brave."
                                -- Mark Twain


                                           
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                              • Michael McKinnon
                                I believe you are mistaken. Grant had a great deal to do with it. Michael Jfepperson@aol.com wrote: Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 2, 2005
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                                  I believe you are mistaken.  Grant had a great deal to do with it.
                                   
                                  Michael

                                  Jfepperson@... wrote:
                                   
                                   Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                                  decision to cease prisoner exchanges? 

                                  Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
                                  decision to stop the exchange? 

                                  Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                                  unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?

                                  =====
                                   
                                  You are confused.  The cartel was suspended in July, 1863, by
                                  order of Secretary of War Stanton.  Grant had nothing to do with
                                  it.
                                   
                                  JFE

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                                • James F. Epperson
                                  ... But not until 1864, and the cartel was suspended in July, 1863. Grant s role was to keep in place a policy that had been formulated the year before. Now,
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 2, 2005
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                                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Michael McKinnon
                                    <tsjdmxm2000@y...> wrote:
                                    > I believe you are mistaken. Grant had a great deal to do with it.

                                    But not until 1864, and the cartel was suspended in July, 1863.
                                    Grant's role was to keep in place a policy that had been formulated
                                    the year before. Now, he did this because he agreed with the
                                    policy, of course. But the decision to suspend the cartel was
                                    not Grant's.

                                    JFE
                                  • Dick Weeks
                                    Thanks Jim. I knew you were right but it had been so long since I looked at this prisoner exchange issue I was not sure of all the details so I decided to do
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 2, 2005
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                                      Thanks Jim. I knew you were right but it had been so long since I looked at
                                      this prisoner exchange issue I was not sure of all the details so I decided
                                      to do a little reading. I found a really good explanation of it and stuck
                                      the article on my website for those that might not have it in their library.
                                      The "source" is at the end of the article.

                                      http://www.civilwarhome.com/prisonerexchange.htm

                                      I hope this helps clear up some of the misunderstandings that others,
                                      including myself, might have on the issue.

                                      I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                                      Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                                      http://www.civilwarhome.com

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "James F. Epperson" <Jfepperson@...>
                                      To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 5:24 AM
                                      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Attrocities.......(Question)


                                      > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Michael McKinnon
                                      > <tsjdmxm2000@y...> wrote:
                                      > > I believe you are mistaken. Grant had a great deal to do with it.
                                      >
                                      > But not until 1864, and the cartel was suspended in July, 1863.
                                      > Grant's role was to keep in place a policy that had been formulated
                                      > the year before. Now, he did this because he agreed with the
                                      > policy, of course. But the decision to suspend the cartel was
                                      > not Grant's.
                                      >
                                      > JFE
                                    • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 7/1/2005 7:15:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, r_moody@yahoo.com writes: Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants decision to cease
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 2, 2005
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                                        In a message dated 7/1/2005 7:15:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, r_moody@... writes:
                                        Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                                        decision to cease prisoner exchanges? 

                                        The tribunal headed by Sherman to investigate NBF and the Ft Pillow affair was after the war ended and had nothing to do with prisoner exchange.
                                         
                                        JEJ
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