Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Attrocities..........

Expand Messages
  • tristan4th
    .....Greetings! Would any body know of any non-fiction , Diaries?? That speak of internal attrocities , such as fragging , questionable friendlyfire ???
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 1 11:04 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      .....Greetings!
      Would any body know of any "non-fiction", Diaries?? That
      speak of "internal attrocities", such as "fragging","questionable
      friendlyfire"??? The only one that I can only think of is; Gen."Buck"
      Van Dorn getting clipped in the back of his head in his own tent...But
      I believe the perputrator was a civilian?? Upset over
      the "promiscuism" of Gen. Van Dorn...
      Sincerely Your Humble Servant,
      Capt. McCracken, Mo. Partisan Ranger
    • banbruner@aol.com
      Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that addresses atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged. Bill Bruner
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 1 11:29 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that addresses atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.
        Bill Bruner
      • Tom Mix
        Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see if charges should be brought. Sherman exonerated Forrest and that was the end of it. And remember Sherman
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 1 11:53 AM
        • 0 Attachment

          Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see if charges should be brought.  Sherman exonerated Forrest and that was the end of it.  And remember Sherman respected him as a General but not in any other way.  Still, he fairly investigated and found nothing.

          Tom

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of banbruner@...
          Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 1:30 PM
          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Attrocities..........

           

          Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that addresses atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.

          Bill Bruner

           

        • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
          In a message dated 7/1/2005 2:31:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, banbruner@aol.com writes: Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 1 12:41 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            In a message dated 7/1/2005 2:31:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, banbruner@... writes:
            Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held after th CW that addresses atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.
            Bill Bruner

            There was a tribunal held with Sherman at the head of the tribunal.  As you all know, Forrest was you might say, the fly in Sherman's ointment during the war and probably caused many a red hair on his head to turn gray.  Sherman's tribunal exonerated Forrest for the Ft Pillow incident.
             
            JEJ
          • Dave Gorski
            ... Friendly Fire in the Civil War, by Webb Garrison, has many stories of such incidents, both accidental and deliberate. Regards, Dave Gorski
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 1 3:48 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              > Would any body know of any "non-fiction", Diaries?? That
              >speak of "internal attrocities", such as "fragging","questionable
              >friendlyfire"???

              "Friendly Fire in the Civil War," by Webb Garrison, has many stories
              of such incidents, both accidental and deliberate.

              Regards, Dave Gorski
            • Rick Moody
              ... The trial of Henry Wirtz. Andersonville I m sure there were more, like the large contingent of Senators and others who wanted Lee hanged. If you took the
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 1 4:06 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                --- banbruner@... wrote:

                > Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held
                > after th CW that addresses
                > atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.
                > Bill Bruner
                >

                The trial of Henry Wirtz. Andersonville
                I'm sure there were more, like the large contingent of
                Senators and others who wanted Lee hanged. If you
                took the loyalty oath and abided by the tearms of
                surrender, Grant frequently interceeded.



                Rick Moody
                r_moody@...

                "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's military secretary.

                "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear. Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is brave."
                -- Mark Twain



                ____________________________________________________
                Yahoo! Sports
                Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
                http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
              • Rick Moody
                ... Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants decision to cease prisoner exchanges? Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants decision to
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 1 4:15 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:

                  > Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see if
                  > charges should be
                  > brought. Sherman exonerated Forrest and that was
                  > the end of it. And
                  > remember Sherman respected him as a General but not
                  > in any other way.
                  > Still, he fairly investigated and found nothing.
                  >
                  > Tom

                  Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                  decision to cease prisoner exchanges?

                  Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
                  decision to stop the exchange?

                  Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                  unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?

                  I am here to learn, so the more info you can provide
                  will be appreciated.


                  Rick Moody
                  r_moody@...

                  "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                  -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's military secretary.

                  "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear. Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is brave."
                  -- Mark Twain

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail.yahoo.com
                • Rick Moody
                  Thank You Dick, I was in the process of reading the document you refered to. Your site is the best overall site on the web. You have more of what really
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 1 6:29 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thank You Dick,

                    I was in the process of reading the document you
                    refered to. Your site is the best overall site on the
                    web. You have more of what "really" matters than
                    anyone else. You should have some affiliate programs
                    going. I will use them if you put some up.

                    I was trying to determine the cause for the end of
                    prisoner exchanges. I was/am of the opinion that
                    Grant wanted it stopped, however, some sites say that
                    it was Lincoln who stopped it. I was also trying to
                    get in my mind a proper time line for Shermans
                    involvement in the investigation. Since Sherman would
                    later demand that they "bankrupt the treasury" if that
                    is what it took to kill/stop Forrest.

                    During my bootcamp we were told, because you wear the
                    uniform you should expect "No Quarter" and if you
                    surrender you are on your own. If your captor chooses
                    to abide by the Geneva Convention then your lucky.

                    The North has never forgiven Forrest and the South has
                    never forgiven Sherman. That is War.

                    Grant said
                    "I am not egotist enough to suppose all this
                    significance should be given because I was the object
                    of it. But the war between the States was a very
                    bloody and a very costly war. One side or the other
                    had to yield principles they deemed dearer than life
                    before it could be brought to an end."

                    Rick Moody


                    --- Dick Weeks <shotgun@...> wrote:

                    > Rick, I don't want to take sides in this battle over
                    > the atrocities that
                    > Forrest may or may not have committed. Suffice it,
                    > I think he was one of
                    > the best battlefield generals in the Western Theater
                    > on either side. As far
                    > as Fort Pillow goes, one of the best descriptions of
                    > it that I have read is
                    > in Henry's book "First With The Most." I took the
                    > liberty of putting that
                    > portion on my website some years back.
                    >
                    > http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestpillow.htm
                    >
                    > Some more interesting material on Forrest can be
                    > found in the Official
                    > Records. Here is a little something that I have on
                    > my website:
                    >
                    >
                    http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestcorrespondence.htm
                    >
                    > The bottom line is that you can love him or hate him
                    > but you can't take away
                    > his military skills and his love of his men. At
                    > Fort Donelson, when he
                    > found out they were going to surrender, he basically
                    > said that he did not
                    > bring his command there to surrender. He was
                    > leaving and anyone who wanted
                    > to go with him was welcome. When he left, virtually
                    > every man in his
                    > command was riding double. If we are going to try
                    > him in the court of
                    > modern day opinion I certainly hope we are not going
                    > to try him alone.
                    > There are plenty of "atrocities" to go around on
                    > both sides. Personally I
                    > had rather look at his military record and let it
                    > stand at that. Just my
                    > opinion of course.
                    >
                    > I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                    > Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                    > http://www.civilwarhome.com
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Rick Moody" <r_moody@...>
                    > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 4:15 PM
                    > Subject: RE: [civilwarwest]
                    > Attrocities.......(Question)
                    >
                    >
                    > > --- Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see
                    > if
                    > > > charges should be
                    > > > brought. Sherman exonerated Forrest and that
                    > was
                    > > > the end of it. And
                    > > > remember Sherman respected him as a General but
                    > not
                    > > > in any other way.
                    > > > Still, he fairly investigated and found nothing.
                    > > >
                    > > > Tom
                    > >
                    > > Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                    > > decision to cease prisoner exchanges?
                    > >
                    > > Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on
                    > Grants
                    > > decision to stop the exchange?
                    > >
                    > > Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                    > > unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?
                    > >
                    > > I am here to learn, so the more info you can
                    > provide
                    > > will be appreciated.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Rick Moody
                    > > r_moody@...
                    > >
                    > > "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past.
                    > Tears make a bitter
                    > throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                    > > -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the
                    > Iroquois and General Grant's
                    > military secretary.
                    > >
                    > > "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear,
                    > not absence of fear.
                    > Except a creature be part coward, it is not a
                    > compliment to say it is
                    > brave."
                    > > -- Mark Twain
                    > >
                    > > __________________________________________________
                    > > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                    > protection around
                    > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >


                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    http://mail.yahoo.com
                  • keeno2@aol.com
                    Don t know about diaries. Did read about Bragg being fragged in Mexico. Remember J.C. Davis causing Nelson to leak down to room temperature. There is a report
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 1 6:33 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Don't know about diaries. Did read about Bragg being fragged in Mexico. Remember J.C. Davis causing Nelson to leak down to room temperature.
                       
                      There is a report on a unit at Shiloh (Louisiana, iirc) that returned unfriendly fire on another confederate unit that gave them some friendly. When admonished for the return fire, the generally reported comment was something like: "Colonel, when we get shot at, we shoot back."
                       
                      There are indications that, perhaps, some blue-clad white troops fired on similarly clad black troops and vice versa. That one hasn't been substantiated satisfactorily, however. If you run across any, I'd be pleased to hear about them.
                    • keeno2@aol.com
                      I ll add my thanks to yours and agree to your assessment of Shotgun s site. It s my understanding that Grant and Stanton wanted it stopped, but Lincoln was the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 1 6:59 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I'll add my thanks to yours and agree to your assessment of Shotgun's site.
                         
                        It's my understanding that Grant and Stanton wanted it stopped, but Lincoln was the one with authority to stop it.
                         
                        I'll try not to stir the fire ants when I recall that the primary reasons Grant wanted it stopped was that (a) the Confederacy refused to trade man for man, officer for officer (blacks were a non-issue and their whie officers were frequently not available for repatriation), (b) the Confederacy had cheated on sending troops parolled at Vicksburg back into battle before being exchanged (most likely disproved).
                         
                        Stanton's reasons were substantially the same, but there exists a considered opinion that both heartlessly and cruelly let Union soldiers suffer as POW's to deprive the Confederacy of much-needed manpower.
                         
                      • Steve Saultz
                        ...Thankyou Dave!....... Dave Gorski wrote: Would any body know of any non-fiction , Diaries?? That ... Friendly Fire in
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 1 7:04 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          ...Thankyou Dave!.......

                          Dave Gorski <bigg@...> wrote:
                          >           Would any body know of any "non-fiction", Diaries?? That
                          >speak of "internal attrocities", such as "fragging","questionable
                          >friendlyfire"???

                             "Friendly Fire in the Civil War," by Webb Garrison, has many stories
                          of such incidents, both accidental and deliberate.

                             Regards,  Dave Gorski
                        • Jfepperson@aol.com
                          Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants decision to cease prisoner exchanges? Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants decision to stop
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 1 7:41 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                             
                             Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                            decision to cease prisoner exchanges? 

                            Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
                            decision to stop the exchange? 

                            Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                            unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?

                            =====
                             
                            You are confused.  The cartel was suspended in July, 1863, by
                            order of Secretary of War Stanton.  Grant had nothing to do with
                            it.
                             
                            JFE
                          • Dick Weeks
                            Rick, I don t want to take sides in this battle over the atrocities that Forrest may or may not have committed. Suffice it, I think he was one of the best
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 1 8:14 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Rick, I don't want to take sides in this battle over the atrocities that
                              Forrest may or may not have committed. Suffice it, I think he was one of
                              the best battlefield generals in the Western Theater on either side. As far
                              as Fort Pillow goes, one of the best descriptions of it that I have read is
                              in Henry's book "First With The Most." I took the liberty of putting that
                              portion on my website some years back.

                              http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestpillow.htm

                              Some more interesting material on Forrest can be found in the Official
                              Records. Here is a little something that I have on my website:

                              http://www.civilwarhome.com/forrestcorrespondence.htm

                              The bottom line is that you can love him or hate him but you can't take away
                              his military skills and his love of his men. At Fort Donelson, when he
                              found out they were going to surrender, he basically said that he did not
                              bring his command there to surrender. He was leaving and anyone who wanted
                              to go with him was welcome. When he left, virtually every man in his
                              command was riding double. If we are going to try him in the court of
                              modern day opinion I certainly hope we are not going to try him alone.
                              There are plenty of "atrocities" to go around on both sides. Personally I
                              had rather look at his military record and let it stand at that. Just my
                              opinion of course.

                              I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                              Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                              http://www.civilwarhome.com

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Rick Moody" <r_moody@...>
                              To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 4:15 PM
                              Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Attrocities.......(Question)


                              > --- Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Grant ordered Sherman to investigate NBF to see if
                              > > charges should be
                              > > brought. Sherman exonerated Forrest and that was
                              > > the end of it. And
                              > > remember Sherman respected him as a General but not
                              > > in any other way.
                              > > Still, he fairly investigated and found nothing.
                              > >
                              > > Tom
                              >
                              > Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                              > decision to cease prisoner exchanges?
                              >
                              > Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
                              > decision to stop the exchange?
                              >
                              > Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                              > unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?
                              >
                              > I am here to learn, so the more info you can provide
                              > will be appreciated.
                              >
                              >
                              > Rick Moody
                              > r_moody@...
                              >
                              > "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter
                              throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                              > -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's
                              military secretary.
                              >
                              > "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear.
                              Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is
                              brave."
                              > -- Mark Twain
                              >
                              > __________________________________________________
                              > Do You Yahoo!?
                              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                              > http://mail.yahoo.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • keeno2@aol.com
                              Sherman s investigation couldn t have occured much before the surrenders. The decision not to exchange prisoners had nothing to do with the finding. Basing
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 1 10:13 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Sherman's investigation couldn't have occured much before the surrenders.
                                 
                                The decision not to exchange prisoners had nothing to do with the finding.
                                 
                                Basing that particular decision solely on the refusal to repatriate black prisoners is not likely. It did, however, look good in the press.
                                 
                                If I might parrot our esteemed colleague: Hey, I'm extrapolating some things that might not exactly be accurate.
                              • Michael McKinnon
                                Rick, I believe Wirz was the only one tried, and that was a travesty. Michael ... The trial of Henry Wirtz. Andersonville I m sure there were more, like the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 2 12:06 AM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Rick,
                                   
                                  I believe Wirz was the only one tried, and that was a travesty.
                                   
                                  Michael

                                  Rick Moody <r_moody@...> wrote:
                                  --- banbruner@... wrote:

                                  > Does anyone know if there war crimes trial held
                                  > after th CW that addresses
                                  > atrocities. Or if NBF specificately was charged.
                                  > Bill Bruner
                                  >

                                  The trial of Henry Wirtz.  Andersonville
                                  I'm sure there were more, like the large contingent of
                                  Senators and others who wanted Lee hanged.  If you
                                  took the loyalty oath and abided by the tearms of
                                  surrender, Grant frequently interceeded. 



                                  Rick Moody
                                  r_moody@...

                                  "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                                  -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's military secretary.

                                  "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear.  Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is brave."
                                  -- Mark Twain


                                             
                                  ____________________________________________________
                                  Yahoo! Sports
                                  Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
                                  http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


                                  Yahoo! Mail
                                  Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

                                • Michael McKinnon
                                  I believe you are mistaken. Grant had a great deal to do with it. Michael Jfepperson@aol.com wrote: Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 2 1:21 AM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I believe you are mistaken.  Grant had a great deal to do with it.
                                     
                                    Michael

                                    Jfepperson@... wrote:
                                     
                                     Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                                    decision to cease prisoner exchanges? 

                                    Did Shermans investigation have any bearing on Grants
                                    decision to stop the exchange? 

                                    Was the decision based solely upon the souths
                                    unwillingness to exchanging black soldiers?

                                    =====
                                     
                                    You are confused.  The cartel was suspended in July, 1863, by
                                    order of Secretary of War Stanton.  Grant had nothing to do with
                                    it.
                                     
                                    JFE

                                    __________________________________________________
                                    Do You Yahoo!?
                                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                    http://mail.yahoo.com

                                  • James F. Epperson
                                    ... But not until 1864, and the cartel was suspended in July, 1863. Grant s role was to keep in place a policy that had been formulated the year before. Now,
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 2 5:24 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Michael McKinnon
                                      <tsjdmxm2000@y...> wrote:
                                      > I believe you are mistaken. Grant had a great deal to do with it.

                                      But not until 1864, and the cartel was suspended in July, 1863.
                                      Grant's role was to keep in place a policy that had been formulated
                                      the year before. Now, he did this because he agreed with the
                                      policy, of course. But the decision to suspend the cartel was
                                      not Grant's.

                                      JFE
                                    • Dick Weeks
                                      Thanks Jim. I knew you were right but it had been so long since I looked at this prisoner exchange issue I was not sure of all the details so I decided to do
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 2 12:32 PM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Thanks Jim. I knew you were right but it had been so long since I looked at
                                        this prisoner exchange issue I was not sure of all the details so I decided
                                        to do a little reading. I found a really good explanation of it and stuck
                                        the article on my website for those that might not have it in their library.
                                        The "source" is at the end of the article.

                                        http://www.civilwarhome.com/prisonerexchange.htm

                                        I hope this helps clear up some of the misunderstandings that others,
                                        including myself, might have on the issue.

                                        I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                                        Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                                        http://www.civilwarhome.com

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "James F. Epperson" <Jfepperson@...>
                                        To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 5:24 AM
                                        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Attrocities.......(Question)


                                        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Michael McKinnon
                                        > <tsjdmxm2000@y...> wrote:
                                        > > I believe you are mistaken. Grant had a great deal to do with it.
                                        >
                                        > But not until 1864, and the cartel was suspended in July, 1863.
                                        > Grant's role was to keep in place a policy that had been formulated
                                        > the year before. Now, he did this because he agreed with the
                                        > policy, of course. But the decision to suspend the cartel was
                                        > not Grant's.
                                        >
                                        > JFE
                                      • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 7/1/2005 7:15:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, r_moody@yahoo.com writes: Was Sherman s investigation before or after Grants decision to cease
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 2 8:02 PM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          In a message dated 7/1/2005 7:15:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, r_moody@... writes:
                                          Was Sherman's investigation before or after Grants
                                          decision to cease prisoner exchanges? 

                                          The tribunal headed by Sherman to investigate NBF and the Ft Pillow affair was after the war ended and had nothing to do with prisoner exchange.
                                           
                                          JEJ
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.