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Shiloh Artillery

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  • Dan G
    Good Evening: Very new to this group and have been following this discussion rather intently.. I have learned a lot.. In regards to the question of the
    Message 1 of 28 , May 2, 2005

      Good Evening:
       
      Very new to this group and have been following this discussion rather intently..  I have learned a lot..  
      In regards to the question of the artillery at Shiloh..  From Ruggles Line there is a "rise" in Duncan Field  that prevented the CSA Artillery from having direct line of sight or fire for that matter to the Union Line in the Sunken Road.Which is at the bottom of the hill..  .Even is the distance had not been too great  this would have made canister ineffective since its target needs to be in a direct and mostly unobstructed line with the cannon muzzle...  For canister to have been effective in this case the CSA Artillery would have to have been well forward of their location  and have been firing downward on the Sunken Road Line
      My thought is that they had cannister with them at the time but used the ammunition that was most appropriate for the job...
      Keep up the good discussion..  I am enjoying this group immensly..  I would appreciate any other thoughts or comments
      Dan
      keeno2@... wrote:
      Thanks so much for that information, Jeff. Now, if you can put to rest another nagging question I've had: There was apparently a standard load for a limber. Who decides if that's best for the artillery accompanying a campaign where a specific type of fighting is expected?
       
      Presumably, artillery at Shiloh started with the standard limbers. It would seem that when sending back for more, cannister was ordered. Who made that decision? The battery commander? The commander of the regiment defending the battery? The brigade commander?
       
      When Ruggles amassed that impressive line of cannon and rifles, they were too far for effective cannister. Who decided what to bring up? Presumably shell and shot were preferred. Or did he just gather them up with what they had?
       
      Any answers? Please?

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    • keeno2@aol.com
      Must take exception to your contention that a rise was in any way a factor in the line of sight of Ruggles line. Anywhere in that line you have a clear line
      Message 2 of 28 , May 2, 2005
        Must take exception to your contention that a "rise" was in any way a factor in the line of sight of Ruggles' line. Anywhere in that line you have a clear line of sight of the sunken road. A little rise, perhaps, but stand by any of the guns and you can clearly see the Union line.
      • Tom Mix
        If memory serves correctly (and boy is that a huge if ) a CSA unit lay down on the reverse slope from the sunken in Duncan Field in front of Ruggles
        Message 3 of 28 , May 2, 2005

          If memory serves correctly (and boy is that a huge “if”) a CSA unit lay down on the reverse slope from the sunken in Duncan Field in front of Ruggles’ artillery.  I’m sure someone will correct my erring ways here if I am wrong which I very well could be. If I happen to be right could some one tell me who those brave souls were? I for one would not have been happy in that position.

          Tom

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan G
          Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 10:45 PM
          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [civilwarwest] Shiloh Artillery

           


          Good Evening:

           

          Very new to this group and have been following this discussion rather intently..  I have learned a lot..  

          In regards to the question of the artillery at Shiloh..  From Ruggles Line there is a "rise" in Duncan Field  that prevented the CSA Artillery from having direct line of sight or fire for that matter to the Union Line in the Sunken Road.Which is at the bottom of the hill..  .Even is the distance had not been too great  this would have made canister ineffective since its target needs to be in a direct and mostly unobstructed line with the cannon muzzle...  For canister to have been effective in this case the CSA Artillery would have to have been well forward of their location  and have been firing downward on the Sunken Road Line

          My thought is that they had cannister with them at the time but used the ammunition that was most appropriate for the job...

          Keep up the good discussion..  I am enjoying this group immensly..  I would appreciate any other thoughts or comments

          Dan
          keeno2@... wrote:

          Thanks so much for that information, Jeff. Now, if you can put to rest another nagging question I've had: There was apparently a standard load for a limber. Who decides if that's best for the artillery accompanying a campaign where a specific type of fighting is expected?

           

          Presumably, artillery at Shiloh started with the standard limbers. It would seem that when sending back for more, cannister was ordered. Who made that decision? The battery commander? The commander of the regiment defending the battery? The brigade commander?

           

          When Ruggles amassed that impressive line of cannon and rifles, they were too far for effective cannister. Who decided what to bring up? Presumably shell and shot were preferred. Or did he just gather them up with what they had?

           

          Any answers? Please?

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        • Tom Mix
          I have to say that I respectfully disagree. I too have stood there did not have a clear view over the rise to allow case shot. It was probably attempted,
          Message 4 of 28 , May 2, 2005

            I have to say that I respectfully disagree. I too have stood there did not have a clear view over the rise to allow case shot. It was probably attempted, except for the CSA infantry that may have been in the line of fire for case.

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of keeno2@...
            Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 11:01 PM
            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Shiloh Artillery

             

            Must take exception to your contention that a "rise" was in any way a factor in the line of sight of Ruggles' line. Anywhere in that line you have a clear line of sight of the sunken road. A little rise, perhaps, but stand by any of the guns and you can clearly see the Union line.

          • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
            In a message dated 5/3/2005 12:08:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@insightbb.com writes: I have to say that I respectfully disagree. I too have stood there
            Message 5 of 28 , May 3, 2005
              In a message dated 5/3/2005 12:08:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@... writes:
              I have to say that I respectfully disagree. I too have stood there did not have a clear view over the rise to allow case shot. It was probably attempted, except for the CSA infantry that may have been in the line of fire for case.
              Tom, I believe the question in hand was the use of cannister by Ruggles appropriate as a result of the distance between the two forces.  There is a difference between case shot and cannister if my memory serves me correct.  Case shot was about the size of marbles and was used only with very short distances, whereas cannister was about the size of a golf ball and was for a longer distance.  I may be wrong, and I have been many times, but wasn't cannister effective up to around 600 + yards.  That is close to a three eighths of a mile.
               
              JEJ
            • Tom Mix
              So the canister could be shot at an elevation to pass over the low rise and the troops on its reverse slope and hit the Union on the Sunken Road then? ...
              Message 6 of 28 , May 3, 2005

                So the canister could be shot at an elevation to pass over the low rise and the troops on its reverse slope and hit the Union on the Sunken Road then?

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of GnrlJEJohnston@...
                Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 10:59 AM
                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Shiloh Artillery

                 

                In a message dated 5/3/2005 12:08:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@... writes:

                I have to say that I respectfully disagree. I too have stood there did not have a clear view over the rise to allow case shot. It was probably attempted, except for the CSA infantry that may have been in the line of fire for case.

                Tom, I believe the question in hand was the use of cannister by Ruggles appropriate as a result of the distance between the two forces.  There is a difference between case shot and cannister if my memory serves me correct.  Case shot was about the size of marbles and was used only with very short distances, whereas cannister was about the size of a golf ball and was for a longer distance.  I may be wrong, and I have been many times, but wasn't cannister effective up to around 600 + yards.  That is close to a three eighths of a mile.

                 

                JEJ

                 

              • Jeff
                Line-of-sight was a necessity for all concerned on the battlefields of the CW. One factor one always has to include is wind. If there is a wind, that is good
                Message 7 of 28 , May 3, 2005
                  Line-of-sight was a necessity for all concerned on the battlefields
                  of the CW. One factor one always has to include is wind. If there
                  is a wind, that is good because of the large volume of white smoke
                  produced during firing will offer one good shot before one starts
                  shooting the smoke as the battle progresses. On a calm day, chances
                  of seeing the enemy is pretty slim for most of the battle.

                  Jeff

                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                  > I have to say that I respectfully disagree. I too have stood there
                  did
                  > not have a clear view over the rise to allow case shot. It was
                  probably
                  > attempted, except for the CSA infantry that may have been in the
                  line of
                  > fire for case.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                  > On Behalf Of keeno2@a...
                  > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 11:01 PM
                  > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Shiloh Artillery
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Must take exception to your contention that a "rise" was in any way
                  a
                  > factor in the line of sight of Ruggles' line. Anywhere in that line
                  you
                  > have a clear line of sight of the sunken road. A little rise,
                  perhaps,
                  > but stand by any of the guns and you can clearly see the Union
                  line.
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                  subject=Unsubscribe>
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                  of
                  > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
                • Tom Mix
                  Jeff, Thanks but I m not talking about the wind but the rise in land they had to slight and shoot over. It isn t high enough to block the line of sight but it
                  Message 8 of 28 , May 3, 2005
                    Jeff,
                    Thanks but I'm not talking about the wind but the rise in land they had
                    to slight and shoot over. It isn't high enough to block the line of
                    sight but it is too high for a direct level shot. This is the far right
                    flank of the Union line.
                    Tom

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of Jeff
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 12:05 PM
                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Shiloh Artillery

                    Line-of-sight was a necessity for all concerned on the battlefields
                    of the CW. One factor one always has to include is wind. If there
                    is a wind, that is good because of the large volume of white smoke
                    produced during firing will offer one good shot before one starts
                    shooting the smoke as the battle progresses. On a calm day, chances
                    of seeing the enemy is pretty slim for most of the battle.

                    Jeff

                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                    > I have to say that I respectfully disagree. I too have stood there
                    did
                    > not have a clear view over the rise to allow case shot. It was
                    probably
                    > attempted, except for the CSA infantry that may have been in the
                    line of
                    > fire for case.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                    > On Behalf Of keeno2@a...
                    > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 11:01 PM
                    > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Shiloh Artillery
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Must take exception to your contention that a "rise" was in any way
                    a
                    > factor in the line of sight of Ruggles' line. Anywhere in that line
                    you
                    > have a clear line of sight of the sunken road. A little rise,
                    perhaps,
                    > but stand by any of the guns and you can clearly see the Union
                    line.
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                    >
                    >
                    > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                    subject=Unsubscribe>
                    >
                    >
                    > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                    of
                    > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.







                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • hank9174
                    The intricacies of artillery make this problematic. The only thing that can be modified, other than the fuse, is elevation. To drop a round over a rise
                    Message 9 of 28 , May 3, 2005
                      The intricacies of artillery make this problematic.

                      The only thing that can be modified, other than the fuse, is
                      elevation. To drop a round over a rise requires a gain in elevation
                      hence increasing the range. This is why line of sight is so
                      important. If you can see it, you can hit it (within range)...


                      HankC

                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                      > So the canister could be shot at an elevation to pass over the low
                      rise
                      > and the troops on its reverse slope and hit the Union on the Sunken
                      Road
                      > then?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                      > On Behalf Of GnrlJEJohnston@a...
                      > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 10:59 AM
                      > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Shiloh Artillery
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > In a message dated 5/3/2005 12:08:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                      > tmix@i... writes:
                      >
                      > I have to say that I respectfully disagree. I too have stood there
                      did
                      > not have a clear view over the rise to allow case shot. It was
                      probably
                      > attempted, except for the CSA infantry that may have been in the
                      line of
                      > fire for case.
                      >
                      > Tom, I believe the question in hand was the use of cannister by
                      Ruggles
                      > appropriate as a result of the distance between the two forces.
                      There
                      > is a difference between case shot and cannister if my memory serves
                      me
                      > correct. Case shot was about the size of marbles and was used only
                      with
                      > very short distances, whereas cannister was about the size of a golf
                      > ball and was for a longer distance. I may be wrong, and I have been
                      > many times, but wasn't cannister effective up to around 600 + yards.
                      > That is close to a three eighths of a mile.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > JEJ
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                      >
                      >
                      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                      subject=Unsubscribe>
                      >
                      >
                      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
                    • keeno2@aol.com
                      Cannister had an effect to 300 yards. It was recommended that cannister not be used beyond 200 yards. If Ruggles used any anti-personnel rounds, it would have
                      Message 10 of 28 , May 3, 2005
                        Cannister had an effect to 300 yards. It was recommended that cannister not be used beyond 200 yards. If Ruggles used any anti-personnel rounds, it would have been case or shell.
                         
                        That brings up a question. In early '62, would he have still been using ammo looted from Union arsenals in '60? If not, the unreliability of CSA fuses would have gotten him shot at by the troops over which he was shooting.
                         
                        Perhaps the sheer volume of fire was enough to fold up the line along the sunken road -- nevermind the projectiles.
                      • Dan G
                        I have consulted the Shiloh National Military Park Topo Map and have found several interesting points that would effect the use of canister by Ruggles
                        Message 11 of 28 , May 3, 2005
                          I have consulted the Shiloh National Military Park Topo Map and have found several interesting points that would effect the use of canister by Ruggles Battery..  Here they are in no particular order
                           
                          The closest that Ruggles Battery was to the Sunken Rd Line was about 880ft and that was on the extreme Union right flank at Cornith Rd..  At this point they were at the extreme limit for effective canister use..  To top it all off they did not have line of sight view of the union line because of a rise in the field..  Canister would not be effective if you had to shoot it up and over.. 
                           
                          If you proceed south down Ruggles battery that rise does disappear about the midpoint of Duncan Field..  (note the lone tree in the field in the picture)..  But by that point Ruggles Line and the Sunken Road line are swinging away from each other and the distance seperating the two is about a quarter mile or 400 yards..  Again, too far away for canister to be used..
                           
                          I think that keeno2 was correct in his statement.. From what I read the Union line was on the verge of collapse when the barrage started..  The sheer volume of fire was what drove it over the edge
                           
                          I have attatched a couple pictures of Duncan Field.. These were taken from the Sunken Road ..  Please look them over and you can see what I am talking about.. Please ignore the captions.. they were added in for another project
                           
                          Dan
                          keeno2@... wrote:
                          Cannister had an effect to 300 yards. It was recommended that cannister not be used beyond 200 yards. If Ruggles used any anti-personnel rounds, it would have been case or shell.
                           
                          That brings up a question. In early '62, would he have still been using ammo looted from Union arsenals in '60? If not, the unreliability of CSA fuses would have gotten him shot at by the troops over which he was shooting.
                           
                          Perhaps the sheer volume of fire was enough to fold up the line along the sunken road -- nevermind the projectiles.

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                        • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
                          In a message dated 5/3/2005 9:19:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dan6764@yahoo.com writes: I think that keeno2 was correct in his statement.. From what I read
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 3, 2005
                            In a message dated 5/3/2005 9:19:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dan6764@... writes:
                            I think that keeno2 was correct in his statement.. From what I read the Union line was on the verge of collapse when the barrage started..  The sheer volume of fire was what drove it over the edge
                            Dan,
                            Kudos to you for an excellent presentation and wonderful explanatory pictures.  Your statement about  the sheer volume of fire and the fear factor coincides exactly with the conclusion Ed Bearrs and Wiley Sword made at a seminar I attended with them several years ago.  Just imagine yourself as a Union soldier either laying flat in Sunken Road or behind the fence at the end of the field, and looking up and seeing the fire power of all those cannons heading just one way, at you.  Myself, I think I would start reaching for the proverbial white roll of paper. 
                             
                            You estimated the distance as 880 feet and I guessed it to be 300 yards from that last time I was there (last October).
                             
                            {Will, ISTM , From the line where Ruggles set up his line of cannon to Prentiss's lines, could not be more than 300 yards if they were actually set up where they are depicted at Shiloh now. }
                             
                             Doggone it, I was twenty feet off.  I  bow to your measurements.
                             
                            JEJ
                          • Rick Moody
                            Canister would not be effective if you had to shoot it up and over.. True; I m not sure that I know what they mean by effective but if that was my red pickup
                            Message 13 of 28 , May 3, 2005
                              Canister would not be effective if you had to shoot it
                              up and over..

                              True;
                              I'm not sure that I know what they mean by "effective"
                              but if that was my red pickup truck and they were
                              opening up on me with canister I would be seeking
                              shelter real quick, but I am a certified sulker.

                              I believe that effective refers to the killing power
                              of the flying shot. A spherical object that is not in
                              a controled spin would go into a "knuckleballers
                              effect". Half of the shot would go into the dirt
                              within 200 yards the other half would sail up like a
                              rising fastball and lose velocity very quickly sailing
                              over the heads of the advancing infantry. The shot in
                              the center of the can is most likely to hit a target.
                              The further away the target the less likely that any
                              of the shot will hit anything.

                              From my experience the spred of shot from a 410 is
                              less than from a 12 guage even though the charge is
                              the same. So I am assuming that a smaller bore cannon
                              firing canister would be more effective that a larger
                              bore cannon firing the same. Even though the larger
                              cannon is firing more shot along with a larger powder
                              charge. What say you!

                              BTW my Aunt says that I am a desendent of Captain
                              George Moody of the Madison Battery, Louisiana Light
                              Artillery, ANV. I'll have to take her word for it as
                              I have never checked it out.
                              My wife is a descendent of Charles Wainwright, First
                              New York Light Artillery, First Army Corp's AOP

                              Over the years there have been a few artillery
                              exchanges in our home. No casualties reported!


                              Rick Moody
                              r_moody@...

                              "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                              -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's military secretary.

                              "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear. Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is brave."
                              -- Mark Twain

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                            • Dan G
                              I looked at that again and realized that when I measured that on the map i measured from Ruggles Line to the edge of Duncan Field.. That was not really
                              Message 14 of 28 , May 4, 2005

                                I looked at that again and realized that when I measured that on the map i measured from Ruggles Line to the edge of Duncan Field..  That was not really correct.. The Sunken Road sits about 20 feet behind Duncan Field  :-)
                                 
                                You estimated the distance as 880 feet and I guessed it to be 300 yards from that last time I was there (last October).
                                 
                                 
                                 Doggone it, I was twenty feet off.  I  bow to your measurements.


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                              • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
                                In a message dated 5/4/2005 7:44:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dan6764@yahoo.com writes: I looked at that again and realized that when I measured that on the
                                Message 15 of 28 , May 4, 2005
                                  In a message dated 5/4/2005 7:44:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dan6764@... writes:
                                  I looked at that again and realized that when I measured that on the map i measured from Ruggles Line to the edge of Duncan Field..  That was not really correct.. The Sunken Road sits about 20 feet behind Duncan Field  :-)
                                   
                                  You have to remember that since I had cataract surgery, I can measure distances quite well, even can see a golf ball two hundred yards down the fairway.  The only problem that I have is in remembering where I saw it.
                                   
                                  JEJ   :-)
                                • hank9174
                                  ... The difference between the shell caliber and the gun bore is the windage . Some windage is necessary to allow hot gases to escape and ignite the fuse.
                                  Message 16 of 28 , May 4, 2005
                                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Rick Moody <r_moody@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I believe that effective refers to the killing power
                                    > of the flying shot. A spherical object that is not in
                                    > a controled spin would go into a "knuckleballers
                                    > effect". Half of the shot would go into the dirt
                                    > within 200 yards the other half would sail up like a
                                    > rising fastball and lose velocity very quickly sailing
                                    > over the heads of the advancing infantry. The shot in
                                    > the center of the can is most likely to hit a target.
                                    > The further away the target the less likely that any
                                    > of the shot will hit anything.
                                    >

                                    The difference between the shell caliber and the gun bore is
                                    the 'windage'. Some windage is necessary to allow hot gases to escape
                                    and ignite the fuse. Fuses were placed on the front of the shell to
                                    keep them from being blown off. Sabots are used on spherical shells
                                    to ensure they had a 'back' and a 'front' and are loaded properly.

                                    The greater the windage the more a shell 'bounces' as it leaves the
                                    barrel of a smoothbore. The bouncing action wears the inside of a
                                    Napoleon barrel in a very predictable pattern, a number of divots or
                                    depressions alternately occur in the top and bottom of the barrel.

                                    The less windage, the truer the shell's flight.

                                    A canister balls windage is tremendous. As the balls bounce down the
                                    barrel they exit at various, random angles, hence the use of plates
                                    and sawdust to add mass to the load and dampen the bouncing effect...


                                    HankC
                                  • Jeff
                                    ... escape ... or ... the ... effect... ... One also has to remember that the canister balls were contained in a thin metal canister that would flaten out upon
                                    Message 17 of 28 , May 4, 2005
                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@m...> wrote:
                                      > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Rick Moody <r_moody@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I believe that effective refers to the killing power
                                      > > of the flying shot. A spherical object that is not in
                                      > > a controled spin would go into a "knuckleballers
                                      > > effect". Half of the shot would go into the dirt
                                      > > within 200 yards the other half would sail up like a
                                      > > rising fastball and lose velocity very quickly sailing
                                      > > over the heads of the advancing infantry. The shot in
                                      > > the center of the can is most likely to hit a target.
                                      > > The further away the target the less likely that any
                                      > > of the shot will hit anything.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > The difference between the shell caliber and the gun bore is
                                      > the 'windage'. Some windage is necessary to allow hot gases to
                                      escape
                                      > and ignite the fuse. Fuses were placed on the front of the shell to
                                      > keep them from being blown off. Sabots are used on spherical shells
                                      > to ensure they had a 'back' and a 'front' and are loaded properly.
                                      >
                                      > The greater the windage the more a shell 'bounces' as it leaves the
                                      > barrel of a smoothbore. The bouncing action wears the inside of a
                                      > Napoleon barrel in a very predictable pattern, a number of divots
                                      or
                                      > depressions alternately occur in the top and bottom of the barrel.
                                      >
                                      > The less windage, the truer the shell's flight.
                                      >
                                      > A canister balls windage is tremendous. As the balls bounce down
                                      the
                                      > barrel they exit at various, random angles, hence the use of plates
                                      > and sawdust to add mass to the load and dampen the bouncing
                                      effect...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > HankC

                                      One also has to remember that the canister balls were contained in a
                                      thin metal canister that would flaten out upon acceleration and hold
                                      the balls rather secure until the canister ruptured upon exiting the
                                      barrel. I don't know if they really bounced around all that much.

                                      Jeff
                                    • Rick Moody
                                      ... . . . The term Brass Monkeys When I was in the Navy we had a conveyer system that was called The Monkey . We were instructed that it refered to
                                      Message 18 of 28 , May 4, 2005
                                        --- Dick Weeks <shotgun@...> wrote:
                                        ". . . The term "Brass Monkeys"

                                        When I was in the Navy we had a conveyer system that
                                        was called "The Monkey". We were instructed that it
                                        refered to "powder monkeys" the young boys that
                                        carried the cannon balls from the shot racks and
                                        powder bags from the magazine to the firing line on
                                        the old sailing ships. It seems logical to me that it
                                        would have been safe to store solid balls on a rack
                                        near the cannon but not the powder. Therefore during
                                        an engagement the boys would have been running back
                                        and forth from the magazine like a bunch of monkeys.

                                        I can't imagine it getting cold enough that brass
                                        would shrink enough to break anything and since brass
                                        was still a valuable commodity I doubt it was used to
                                        store, rail or shelve anything. Wood and iron would
                                        have worked just as well as anything else and would
                                        have been much cheaper.

                                        Anyway that is what the Navy told us.



                                        Rick Moody
                                        r_moody@...

                                        "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                                        -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's military secretary.

                                        "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear. Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is brave."
                                        -- Mark Twain



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                                      • Jeff
                                        ... Iron? I take it you ve never played around with gunpowder in it s unprotected state. Brass doesn t cause sparks the way steel and iron do. With a large
                                        Message 19 of 28 , May 4, 2005
                                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Rick Moody <r_moody@y...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- Dick Weeks <shotgun@c...> wrote:
                                          > ". . . The term "Brass Monkeys"
                                          >
                                          > When I was in the Navy we had a conveyer system that
                                          > was called "The Monkey". We were instructed that it
                                          > refered to "powder monkeys" the young boys that
                                          > carried the cannon balls from the shot racks and
                                          > powder bags from the magazine to the firing line on
                                          > the old sailing ships. It seems logical to me that it
                                          > would have been safe to store solid balls on a rack
                                          > near the cannon but not the powder. Therefore during
                                          > an engagement the boys would have been running back
                                          > and forth from the magazine like a bunch of monkeys.
                                          >
                                          > I can't imagine it getting cold enough that brass
                                          > would shrink enough to break anything and since brass
                                          > was still a valuable commodity I doubt it was used to
                                          > store, rail or shelve anything. Wood and iron would
                                          > have worked just as well as anything else and would
                                          > have been much cheaper.
                                          >
                                          > Anyway that is what the Navy told us.
                                          >

                                          Iron? I take it you've never played around with gunpowder in it's
                                          unprotected state. Brass doesn't cause sparks the way steel and iron
                                          do. With a large amount of powder being spilled, one spark and
                                          you've done more damage than the enemy.

                                          I don't know the longevity of wood and iron aboard a sailing vessel,
                                          but in the long run, I would tend to think brass a fairly good choice
                                          of material.

                                          I do know that the weight of the cannon balls and shifting of the
                                          deck of a ship could cause a problem for the weaker/softer brass in
                                          cold weather.

                                          Even if it is just a nice story/myth, it has a tone of validity to it.

                                          Jeff

                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Rick Moody
                                          > r_moody@y...
                                          >
                                          > "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a
                                          bitter throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                                          > -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General
                                          Grant's military secretary.
                                          >
                                          > "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of
                                          fear. Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to
                                          say it is brave."
                                          > -- Mark Twain
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > __________________________________
                                          > Do you Yahoo!?
                                          > Make Yahoo! your home page
                                          > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                        • Dick Weeks
                                          I don t mean to be disrespectful to the group but I thought some of you might be interested in this since it is a fairly common term and is related to
                                          Message 20 of 28 , May 4, 2005
                                            I don't mean to be disrespectful to the group but I thought some of you might be interested in this since it is a fairly common term and is related to artillery which we are discussing.
                                                    ". . . The term "Brass Monkeys" is an accepted phrase used in the English language to indicate that the ambient air temperature (or weather) is cold. This use stems from a longer phrase "It is cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey". This generally perceived as a humorous reference to some unfortunate Brass Monkey who loses his testicles if the weather is too cold. Another derived phrase is "it's cold enough to freeze your balls off".
                                                    The origin and true meaning of this phrase is actually totally unrelated to any form of animal or its testicles. Back in time to the period of the Napoleonic War, the great gunships of this time carried many cannons on various gun decks. As an efficient method of storage and delivery of cannon balls to the cannon for firing, a "Monkey" (this term is used to define a table and/ or a rail) made of brass was used to hold the balls. In very cold temperatures the brass would contract or even break thus allowing the cannon balls to roll off the Monkey onto the gun deck. Hence the sailors would say "it is cold enough to freeze the balls off a Brass Monkey". . . . "
                                            I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                                            Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                                            http://www.civilwarhome.com
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Jeff" <jblake47@...>
                                            Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:30 AM
                                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Shiloh Artillery

                                            >
                                            > One also has to remember that the canister balls were contained in a
                                            > thin metal canister that would flaten out upon acceleration and hold
                                            > the balls rather secure until the canister ruptured upon exiting the
                                            > barrel.  I don't know if they really bounced around all that much.
                                            >
                                            > Jeff
                                          • Dick Weeks
                                            I agree my friend. Just passing along what I read. It was brought to mind when I was surfing the web today and although I had heard the story before I had
                                            Message 21 of 28 , May 4, 2005
                                              I agree my friend. Just passing along what I read. It was brought to mind
                                              when I was surfing the web today and although I had heard the story before I
                                              had not seen that good of a short, concise, explanation.

                                              I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
                                              Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
                                              http://www.civilwarhome.com

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Rick Moody" <r_moody@...>
                                              To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 12:52 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Shiloh Artillery


                                              > --- Dick Weeks <shotgun@...> wrote:
                                              > ". . . The term "Brass Monkeys"
                                              >
                                              > When I was in the Navy we had a conveyer system that
                                              > was called "The Monkey". We were instructed that it
                                              > refered to "powder monkeys" the young boys that
                                              > carried the cannon balls from the shot racks and
                                              > powder bags from the magazine to the firing line on
                                              > the old sailing ships. It seems logical to me that it
                                              > would have been safe to store solid balls on a rack
                                              > near the cannon but not the powder. Therefore during
                                              > an engagement the boys would have been running back
                                              > and forth from the magazine like a bunch of monkeys.
                                              >
                                              > I can't imagine it getting cold enough that brass
                                              > would shrink enough to break anything and since brass
                                              > was still a valuable commodity I doubt it was used to
                                              > store, rail or shelve anything. Wood and iron would
                                              > have worked just as well as anything else and would
                                              > have been much cheaper.
                                              >
                                              > Anyway that is what the Navy told us.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Rick Moody
                                              > r_moody@...
                                              >
                                              > "Spend no time mourning the failures of the past. Tears make a bitter
                                              throat. Look ahead, there is more work to do."
                                              > -- Ely S. Parker: last Grand Sachem of the Iroquois and General Grant's
                                              military secretary.
                                              >
                                              > "Courage is resistance to fear, master of fear, not absence of fear.
                                              Except a creature be part coward, it is not a compliment to say it is
                                              brave."
                                              > -- Mark Twain
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > __________________________________
                                              > Do you Yahoo!?
                                              > Make Yahoo! your home page
                                              > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • banbruner@aol.com
                                              Help me out here. I am under the impression that cannister is not fused and acts sorta like a shotgun. And that case is fused and acts pretty much like
                                              Message 22 of 28 , May 5, 2005
                                                Help me out here.  I am under the impression that cannister is not fused and acts sorta like a shotgun.  And that case is fused and acts pretty much like shrapnel shell.  Is grape fused?
                                              • keeno2@aol.com
                                                Grape is not fused. It s principal is the same as cannister -- a shotgun effect -- but it is held together by netting and had larger balls.
                                                Message 23 of 28 , May 5, 2005
                                                  Grape is not fused. It's principal is the same as cannister -- a shotgun effect -- but it is held together by netting and had larger balls.
                                                • Jeff
                                                  ... fused and ... much like ... Cannister is 1 ball in a thin metal cannister afixed to a wooden sabot and powder bag. Looks like a huge shotgun shell.
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , May 5, 2005
                                                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, banbruner@a... wrote:
                                                    > Help me out here. I am under the impression that cannister is not
                                                    fused and
                                                    > acts sorta like a shotgun. And that case is fused and acts pretty
                                                    much like
                                                    > shrapnel shell. Is grape fused?

                                                    Cannister is 1" ball in a thin metal "cannister" afixed to a wooden
                                                    sabot and powder bag. Looks like a huge shotgun shell.

                                                    Case shot is small balls and powder inside a hollow lead sphere. A
                                                    fuse is on the "nose" end of the projectile which is, like cannister,
                                                    fixed to a wooden sabot and powder bag.

                                                    Grape are larger balls strapped to a wooden sabot and powder bag.
                                                    They can also be loosely held together with lead as well, but you can
                                                    see the grape shot by looking at the shell and know what it is.
                                                    Cannister is nothing but a large can, one cannot see the balls.

                                                    Jeff
                                                  • Jeff
                                                    ... fused and ... much like ... Oops, forgot, grape is not fused, the balls are released when the straps break like the cannister ruptures with cannister
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , May 5, 2005
                                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, banbruner@a... wrote:
                                                      > Help me out here. I am under the impression that cannister is not
                                                      fused and
                                                      > acts sorta like a shotgun. And that case is fused and acts pretty
                                                      much like
                                                      > shrapnel shell. Is grape fused?

                                                      Oops, forgot, grape is not fused, the balls are released when the
                                                      straps break like the cannister ruptures with cannister rounds.

                                                      Jeff
                                                    • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
                                                      In a message dated 5/5/2005 1:19:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jblake47@yahoo.com writes: Oops, forgot, grape is not fused, the balls are released when the
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , May 5, 2005
                                                        In a message dated 5/5/2005 1:19:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jblake47@... writes:
                                                        Oops, forgot, grape is not fused, the balls are released when the
                                                        straps break like the cannister ruptures with cannister rounds.

                                                        Jeff
                                                        Also Jeff, I would like to add along with your excellent description:
                                                         
                                                        Grape Shot -  Round cylindrical balls approximately 2" -3" in diameter
                                                                                (think of a tennis ball)
                                                         
                                                        Canister Shot -  Round cylindrical balls approximately 1" - 1 1/4" in diameter
                                                                                    (think of a golf ball)
                                                         
                                                        Case Shot  -   Round cylindrical balls approximately 1/2" - 5/8"  in diameter
                                                         
                                                        JEJ
                                                      • hank9174
                                                        ... diameter ... in ... in diameter ... Presumably, you mean round *spherical* balls... Rather than some other shape of a ball ;) HankC
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , May 6, 2005
                                                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, GnrlJEJohnston@a... wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Grape Shot - Round cylindrical balls approximately 2" -3" in
                                                          diameter
                                                          > (think of a tennis ball)
                                                          >
                                                          > Canister Shot - Round cylindrical balls approximately 1" - 1 1/4"
                                                          in
                                                          > diameter
                                                          > (think of a golf ball)
                                                          >
                                                          > Case Shot - Round cylindrical balls approximately 1/2" - 5/8"
                                                          in diameter
                                                          >

                                                          Presumably, you mean round *spherical* balls...

                                                          Rather than some other shape of a ball ;)


                                                          HankC
                                                        • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
                                                          In a message dated 5/6/2005 1:28:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, clarkc@missouri.edu writes: Presumably, you mean round *spherical* balls... Rather than some
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , May 6, 2005
                                                            In a message dated 5/6/2005 1:28:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, clarkc@... writes:
                                                            Presumably, you mean round *spherical* balls...

                                                            Rather than some other shape of a ball ;)


                                                            HankC

                                                            Dang those senior moments.  :-(
                                                             
                                                            JEJ
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