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Re: Who would have been the best choice for commander in the West?

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  • Mark Peters
    Davis wanted a commission at the beginning of the war, but ended up with the Presidency. He was the one that never got over this, and hence his continuous
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 9, 2004
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      Davis wanted a commission at the beginning of the war, but ended up
      with the Presidency. He was the one that never got over this, and
      hence his continuous dabblings. That's my opinion, anyway.

      However, I don't agree that Beauregard and Johnston were in the
      wrong, because they didn't accept his war record and military
      ambitions. Rather, they were the ones in the field, and should have
      been given the responsibility to act upon their commissions.

      Best wishes,

      Mark

      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
      <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Thanks for the response mark. Yeah you bring up a good point. I
      > hadn't even thought of Davis' fixation on the East.
      >
      > Also I don't have that big a problem with Beauregard either.
      Granted
      > the man thought he was another Napoleon and he had a fixation with
      > overly ambitious, grand strategic plans, but once he was brought
      > back down to earth he was able to tailor his plans based somewhat
      > more on reality. I think First Manassas was a good example of
      this,
      > even though a lot of the credit goes to Joe Johnston for that. His
      > defense of Petersburg was also much better than he traditionally
      > gets credit for, IMHO.
      >
      > Anyway I know this is a western discussion board, and, especially
      > being the new guy, I don't mean to stray too much. As for Davis I
      > couldn't agree more. I think the Confederacy's biggest problem was
      > his firm belief that because of his previous experience in Mexico
      > and as Secretary in War he was, in his opinion, almost a de facto
      > general. I just happen to think that he was the president of the
      > CSA, for better or worse, and Beauregard and Johnston would have
      > been a lot better off, both from a personal and military
      > perspective, if they had swallowed their pride and dealt with this
      > fact.
      >
      >
      > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Peters"
      > <mark.peters14@b...> wrote:
      > >
      > > You highlight several problems.
      > >
      > > Firstly, my belief is that Lee refused command in the West. So,
      > he
      > > wasn't a viable option. Davis, as did Lee, thought the war
      would
      > be
      > > won in the east. There is no way that he would have wanted his
      > best
      > > commander in the west, on a permanent basis.
      > >
      > > Of those willing to serve, as I've stated before, my belief is
      > that
      > > Beauregard was the best option. The fact that Davis
      continuously
      > > meddled in military affairs surely shows that politicians should
      > > allow their military commanders to get on with it. Because
      Davis
      > > did not get on, at a personal level, with Beauregard or J.
      > Johnston
      > > should not have precluded them from continuous command out west.
      > >
      > > I do agree with you on Cleburne!
      > >
      > > Best wishes,
      > >
      > > Mark
      > >
      > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
      > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi everyone, I'm fairly new here. Been lurking for a while,
      and
      > > have
      > > > read most of the posts on who would have been the best choice
      > with
      > > > respect to the Confederacy for commander in the West. Best
      > option,
      > > > IMHO, Lee.
      > > >
      > > > I know this has been suggested before, and Davis himself even
      > > > considered it, but rejected it partially because of Lee's
      > > > reluctance. Nevertheless, sending Lee west and placing
      > Longstreet
      > > in
      > > > command in the East, after Chattanooga, probably would have
      been
      > > the
      > > > Confederacy's best course of action. There are several major
      > > > positives and negatives in this plan and, if everyone will
      bear
      > > with
      > > > me real quick, I'm gonna try to lay 'em out.
      > > >
      > > > First the weakness:
      > > >
      > > > 1. LONGSTREET'S LACKLUSTER RECORD AS AN INDEPENDANT COMMANDER:
      > For
      > > > whatever reason "Pete" had a fairly lackluster record as an
      > > > independant commander. While he admittedly faced several
      > handicaps
      > > > at Knoxville and during his tenure in command of a department
      in
      > > > southeastern Virginia, such as having to deal with a number of
      > > > generals Lee had banished there so Marse Robert himself would
      no
      > > > longer have to worry about them, the record remains disturbing
      > at
      > > > best. Just how would Longstreet have fared if given complete
      > > control
      > > > of the ANV? There is enough evidence out there to cast some
      > > serious
      > > > doubt on his abilities as an independant commander.
      > > >
      > > > 2. LEE'S OWN RELUCTANCE TO LEAVE THE ANV: Lee was a Virginian
      by
      > > > birth, by early 1864 he wanted to keep command of the ANV,
      which
      > > he
      > > > had more than earned and proved himself a master at
      commanding.
      > > > Furthermore Lee's reluctance to leave a theater he knew so
      well,
      > > for
      > > > one he knew very little about is a legitimate objection. I
      would
      > > > also add to this Davis' heavy reliance on having Lee nearby,
      not
      > > > only as commander of the ANV, but as a valued friend and
      general
      > > to
      > > > consult with. Nevertheless, given Lee's notion of honor and
      > > devotion
      > > > to duty, there is no doubt in my mind that had Davis actually
      > > > ordered him out west, he would have went.
      > > >
      > > > 3. THE REACTION OF THE ANV: While there is no doubt that the
      ANV
      > > > dearly loved Longstreet, and held him in high esteem, the
      regard
      > > > they had for him could never compare to that they had for Lee.
      > > > Understandably no general would ever hold in their hearts the
      > > place
      > > > that Lee did. Again, nevertheless, if Lee were sent West after
      > > > Chattanooga, given the circumstances, and the fact that by
      1864
      > > the
      > > > ANV was an actual army in discipline as well as name, I think
      > the
      > > > change just might have worked.
      > > >
      > > > Now the strenghts:
      > > >
      > > > 1. LEE'S AGRESSIVENESS, COMPETENCE AS A COMMANDER, AND ABILITY
      > TO
      > > > SEE OPPORTUNITY WHERE OTHERS SAW DISASTER: Lee is exactly the
      > type
      > > > of commander that was needed in the West. One who always
      > remained
      > > > inherently aggressive, and looked for ways to attack the enemy
      > > > rather than lamenting the shortcomings he faced. If anyone
      could
      > > > have viewed the Confederate situation out West, after
      > Chattanooga,
      > > > and found a way to counterattack the Union advance it would
      have
      > > > been Lee. Moreover he would have brought a sense of the
      > offensive
      > > > that was often missing in the AoT's commanders (Johnston),
      > > although
      > > > not the AoT itself.
      > > >
      > > > 2. LEE'S PERSONALITY: His unique ability to balance delicate
      and
      > > > often intemperate subordinates. This was a key in the AoT and
      > one
      > > > that all of its previous commanders, including chiefly Bragg
      and
      > > > Johnston, simply missed. Men like Forrest and even Hood would
      > not
      > > > have bucked Lee as easily as they did Johnston. A situation
      like
      > > > Cassville, where Hood's attitude toward Johnston, his
      > motivations,
      > > > and his actions were questionable, simply would not have
      > happened
      > > > under Lee. Hood, along with pretty much every other commander
      in
      > > the
      > > > Confederacy revered Lee. It's safe to say even a man like
      > Forrest
      > > > probably would not have reacted to Lee the same way he did to
      > > Bragg
      > > > for several reasons. (The first of which is that Lee always
      > highly
      > > > valued the reports of his cavalry and paid close attention to
      > > them.
      > > > The second that he was a far more competent operational
      > commander
      > > > than Bragg could ever hope to be, and the third that he was
      > simply
      > > > Robert E. Lee.) Finally men like Cleburne would have been
      given
      > > the
      > > > opportunity to either prove themselves as leaders at higher
      > > command
      > > > positions, failed and been moved back to their original
      command,
      > > or
      > > > simply shuffled to another theater as Lee was so adroit at
      > doing.
      > > > (When I look at Cleburne out West I can't help but think of
      John
      > > B.
      > > > Gordon out East. It's hard for me to believe that Clebure
      would
      > > not
      > > > have been, at least temporarily, allowed to try his hand at a
      > > corps
      > > > command under Lee.)
      > > >
      > > > 3. THE INHERENT PERSONALITY FLAWS IN THE OTHER COMMANDERS OF
      THE
      > > > AoT: Say what you like about Johnston, Beauregard and Bragg
      but
      > > they
      > > > were simply not as easy to get along with as Lee. Moreover,
      with
      > > > respect to Davis, it has always seemed rather beside the point
      > to
      > > me
      > > > whether or not Johnston and Beauregard were right about his
      > > > treatment of them. The point is HE, Davis, not them was the
      > > > President of the Confederacy. The president MUST always have
      > > > complete faith in his subordinates and trust their judgement.
      If
      > > he
      > > > can't, even because of his own personal shortcomings, these
      men
      > > must
      > > > be relieved or else the command will suffer. With Lee, Davis
      > would
      > > > have been able to have complete confidence, for the first time
      > > since
      > > > Albert Sidney Johnston, in the commander of the AoT. This
      > > doubtless
      > > > would have been a better military arrangement for all
      involved,
      > > and
      > > > elevated the morale of the army. Not only would they like
      their
      > > > commander (as they did Joe Johnston) or the president support
      > him
      > > > (as he did Bragg), but rather both the army and the president
      > > would
      > > > both support the commanding general at the same time. A rather
      > > novel
      > > > notion out west.
      > > >
      > > > 4. LONGSTREET'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE GRAND STRATEGIC PLAN OUT
      > > EAST:
      > > > Longstreet's idea of remaining on the defensive, and simply
      > > beating
      > > > off Federal attacks would have worked much better in Virginia
      > than
      > > > it would have in Tenesse or Georgia. Think Fredericksburg.
      (Yes
      > I
      > > > know Lee was the commanding general, but Longstreet's reading
      of
      > > the
      > > > field and handling of his own troops was masterful here. I
      think
      > > he
      > > > could have done it on a larger scale.) Although Longstreet was
      > > > undoubtedly better under Lee and this strategy may have had
      its
      > > > difficulties against a federal army under Grant, I don't think
      > it
      > > > would have worn out the ability of the ANV to take the
      offensive
      > > as
      > > > quickly as Lee did.
      > > >
      > > > In closing, and given the subsequent history, I don't believe
      > > Davis
      > > > really had any other viable options. Lee out West, and
      > Longstreet
      > > in
      > > > the East, at least until the elections of 1864, and the hope
      > that
      > > > Lee could have kept Sherman out of Atlanta, would have been a
      > > > pretty good hand to play.
      > > >
      > > > Sorry if this post was too long, but you know what they say.
      > > Figured
      > > > I'd try to make somewhat of a good first impression.
    • Tom Mix
      I think the South had three capable leaders after the death of A.S. Johnston. R.E. Lee, Joe Johnston and Beauregard. What they had was a horrible road network
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 9, 2004
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        I think the South had three capable leaders after the death of A.S.
        Johnston. R.E. Lee, Joe Johnston and Beauregard. What they had was a
        horrible road network (to call it a "network" is a compliment) that
        covered a territory that was simply too large for an East, a West and a
        Southern Mississippi. They needed a third area between Lee and the West.
        Beauregard could have been left in command of the West and Northern
        Mississippi region and Joe Johnston put in charge of a middle area
        around Knoxville, Chattanooga and Georgia.
        Just a thought and probably a lousy one. But something to consider.
        Don't think about Davis and his prejudices. We know of them. This is an
        alternative thought of could be done if Davis really wanted to do
        something that would utilized the best available talent.


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mark Peters [mailto:mark.peters14@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:18 PM
        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
        commander in the West?



        Davis wanted a commission at the beginning of the war, but ended up
        with the Presidency. He was the one that never got over this, and
        hence his continuous dabblings. That's my opinion, anyway.

        However, I don't agree that Beauregard and Johnston were in the
        wrong, because they didn't accept his war record and military
        ambitions. Rather, they were the ones in the field, and should have
        been given the responsibility to act upon their commissions.

        Best wishes,

        Mark

        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
        <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks for the response mark. Yeah you bring up a good point. I
        > hadn't even thought of Davis' fixation on the East.
        >
        > Also I don't have that big a problem with Beauregard either.
        Granted
        > the man thought he was another Napoleon and he had a fixation with
        > overly ambitious, grand strategic plans, but once he was brought
        > back down to earth he was able to tailor his plans based somewhat
        > more on reality. I think First Manassas was a good example of
        this,
        > even though a lot of the credit goes to Joe Johnston for that. His
        > defense of Petersburg was also much better than he traditionally
        > gets credit for, IMHO.
        >
        > Anyway I know this is a western discussion board, and, especially
        > being the new guy, I don't mean to stray too much. As for Davis I
        > couldn't agree more. I think the Confederacy's biggest problem was
        > his firm belief that because of his previous experience in Mexico
        > and as Secretary in War he was, in his opinion, almost a de facto
        > general. I just happen to think that he was the president of the
        > CSA, for better or worse, and Beauregard and Johnston would have
        > been a lot better off, both from a personal and military
        > perspective, if they had swallowed their pride and dealt with this
        > fact.
        >
        >
        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Peters"
        > <mark.peters14@b...> wrote:
        > >
        > > You highlight several problems.
        > >
        > > Firstly, my belief is that Lee refused command in the West. So,
        > he
        > > wasn't a viable option. Davis, as did Lee, thought the war
        would
        > be
        > > won in the east. There is no way that he would have wanted his
        > best
        > > commander in the west, on a permanent basis.
        > >
        > > Of those willing to serve, as I've stated before, my belief is
        > that
        > > Beauregard was the best option. The fact that Davis
        continuously
        > > meddled in military affairs surely shows that politicians should
        > > allow their military commanders to get on with it. Because
        Davis
        > > did not get on, at a personal level, with Beauregard or J.
        > Johnston
        > > should not have precluded them from continuous command out west.
        > >
        > > I do agree with you on Cleburne!
        > >
        > > Best wishes,
        > >
        > > Mark
        > >
        > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
        > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi everyone, I'm fairly new here. Been lurking for a while,
        and
        > > have
        > > > read most of the posts on who would have been the best choice
        > with
        > > > respect to the Confederacy for commander in the West. Best
        > option,
        > > > IMHO, Lee.
        > > >
        > > > I know this has been suggested before, and Davis himself even
        > > > considered it, but rejected it partially because of Lee's
        > > > reluctance. Nevertheless, sending Lee west and placing
        > Longstreet
        > > in
        > > > command in the East, after Chattanooga, probably would have
        been
        > > the
        > > > Confederacy's best course of action. There are several major
        > > > positives and negatives in this plan and, if everyone will
        bear
        > > with
        > > > me real quick, I'm gonna try to lay 'em out.
        > > >
        > > > First the weakness:
        > > >
        > > > 1. LONGSTREET'S LACKLUSTER RECORD AS AN INDEPENDANT COMMANDER:
        > For
        > > > whatever reason "Pete" had a fairly lackluster record as an
        > > > independant commander. While he admittedly faced several
        > handicaps
        > > > at Knoxville and during his tenure in command of a department
        in
        > > > southeastern Virginia, such as having to deal with a number of
        > > > generals Lee had banished there so Marse Robert himself would
        no
        > > > longer have to worry about them, the record remains disturbing
        > at
        > > > best. Just how would Longstreet have fared if given complete
        > > control
        > > > of the ANV? There is enough evidence out there to cast some
        > > serious
        > > > doubt on his abilities as an independant commander.
        > > >
        > > > 2. LEE'S OWN RELUCTANCE TO LEAVE THE ANV: Lee was a Virginian
        by
        > > > birth, by early 1864 he wanted to keep command of the ANV,
        which
        > > he
        > > > had more than earned and proved himself a master at
        commanding.
        > > > Furthermore Lee's reluctance to leave a theater he knew so
        well,
        > > for
        > > > one he knew very little about is a legitimate objection. I
        would
        > > > also add to this Davis' heavy reliance on having Lee nearby,
        not
        > > > only as commander of the ANV, but as a valued friend and
        general
        > > to
        > > > consult with. Nevertheless, given Lee's notion of honor and
        > > devotion
        > > > to duty, there is no doubt in my mind that had Davis actually
        > > > ordered him out west, he would have went.
        > > >
        > > > 3. THE REACTION OF THE ANV: While there is no doubt that the
        ANV
        > > > dearly loved Longstreet, and held him in high esteem, the
        regard
        > > > they had for him could never compare to that they had for Lee.
        > > > Understandably no general would ever hold in their hearts the
        > > place
        > > > that Lee did. Again, nevertheless, if Lee were sent West after
        > > > Chattanooga, given the circumstances, and the fact that by
        1864
        > > the
        > > > ANV was an actual army in discipline as well as name, I think
        > the
        > > > change just might have worked.
        > > >
        > > > Now the strenghts:
        > > >
        > > > 1. LEE'S AGRESSIVENESS, COMPETENCE AS A COMMANDER, AND ABILITY
        > TO
        > > > SEE OPPORTUNITY WHERE OTHERS SAW DISASTER: Lee is exactly the
        > type
        > > > of commander that was needed in the West. One who always
        > remained
        > > > inherently aggressive, and looked for ways to attack the enemy
        > > > rather than lamenting the shortcomings he faced. If anyone
        could
        > > > have viewed the Confederate situation out West, after
        > Chattanooga,
        > > > and found a way to counterattack the Union advance it would
        have
        > > > been Lee. Moreover he would have brought a sense of the
        > offensive
        > > > that was often missing in the AoT's commanders (Johnston),
        > > although
        > > > not the AoT itself.
        > > >
        > > > 2. LEE'S PERSONALITY: His unique ability to balance delicate
        and
        > > > often intemperate subordinates. This was a key in the AoT and
        > one
        > > > that all of its previous commanders, including chiefly Bragg
        and
        > > > Johnston, simply missed. Men like Forrest and even Hood would
        > not
        > > > have bucked Lee as easily as they did Johnston. A situation
        like
        > > > Cassville, where Hood's attitude toward Johnston, his
        > motivations,
        > > > and his actions were questionable, simply would not have
        > happened
        > > > under Lee. Hood, along with pretty much every other commander
        in
        > > the
        > > > Confederacy revered Lee. It's safe to say even a man like
        > Forrest
        > > > probably would not have reacted to Lee the same way he did to
        > > Bragg
        > > > for several reasons. (The first of which is that Lee always
        > highly
        > > > valued the reports of his cavalry and paid close attention to
        > > them.
        > > > The second that he was a far more competent operational
        > commander
        > > > than Bragg could ever hope to be, and the third that he was
        > simply
        > > > Robert E. Lee.) Finally men like Cleburne would have been
        given
        > > the
        > > > opportunity to either prove themselves as leaders at higher
        > > command
        > > > positions, failed and been moved back to their original
        command,
        > > or
        > > > simply shuffled to another theater as Lee was so adroit at
        > doing.
        > > > (When I look at Cleburne out West I can't help but think of
        John
        > > B.
        > > > Gordon out East. It's hard for me to believe that Clebure
        would
        > > not
        > > > have been, at least temporarily, allowed to try his hand at a
        > > corps
        > > > command under Lee.)
        > > >
        > > > 3. THE INHERENT PERSONALITY FLAWS IN THE OTHER COMMANDERS OF
        THE
        > > > AoT: Say what you like about Johnston, Beauregard and Bragg
        but
        > > they
        > > > were simply not as easy to get along with as Lee. Moreover,
        with
        > > > respect to Davis, it has always seemed rather beside the point
        > to
        > > me
        > > > whether or not Johnston and Beauregard were right about his
        > > > treatment of them. The point is HE, Davis, not them was the
        > > > President of the Confederacy. The president MUST always have
        > > > complete faith in his subordinates and trust their judgement.
        If
        > > he
        > > > can't, even because of his own personal shortcomings, these
        men
        > > must
        > > > be relieved or else the command will suffer. With Lee, Davis
        > would
        > > > have been able to have complete confidence, for the first time
        > > since
        > > > Albert Sidney Johnston, in the commander of the AoT. This
        > > doubtless
        > > > would have been a better military arrangement for all
        involved,
        > > and
        > > > elevated the morale of the army. Not only would they like
        their
        > > > commander (as they did Joe Johnston) or the president support
        > him
        > > > (as he did Bragg), but rather both the army and the president
        > > would
        > > > both support the commanding general at the same time. A rather
        > > novel
        > > > notion out west.
        > > >
        > > > 4. LONGSTREET'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE GRAND STRATEGIC PLAN OUT
        > > EAST:
        > > > Longstreet's idea of remaining on the defensive, and simply
        > > beating
        > > > off Federal attacks would have worked much better in Virginia
        > than
        > > > it would have in Tenesse or Georgia. Think Fredericksburg.
        (Yes
        > I
        > > > know Lee was the commanding general, but Longstreet's reading
        of
        > > the
        > > > field and handling of his own troops was masterful here. I
        think
        > > he
        > > > could have done it on a larger scale.) Although Longstreet was
        > > > undoubtedly better under Lee and this strategy may have had
        its
        > > > difficulties against a federal army under Grant, I don't think
        > it
        > > > would have worn out the ability of the ANV to take the
        offensive
        > > as
        > > > quickly as Lee did.
        > > >
        > > > In closing, and given the subsequent history, I don't believe
        > > Davis
        > > > really had any other viable options. Lee out West, and
        > Longstreet
        > > in
        > > > the East, at least until the elections of 1864, and the hope
        > that
        > > > Lee could have kept Sherman out of Atlanta, would have been a
        > > > pretty good hand to play.
        > > >
        > > > Sorry if this post was too long, but you know what they say.
        > > Figured
        > > > I'd try to make somewhat of a good first impression.







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      • carlw4514
        my comments below yours ... for some reason I never considered this exact combination, but not elevating Longstreet to army command was a huge mistake for the
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 10, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          my comments below yours

          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
          <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi everyone, I'm fairly new here. Been lurking for a while, and have
          > read most of the posts on who would have been the best choice with
          > respect to the Confederacy for commander in the West. Best option,
          > IMHO, Lee.
          >
          > I know this has been suggested before, and Davis himself even
          > considered it, but rejected it partially because of Lee's
          > reluctance. Nevertheless, sending Lee west and placing Longstreet in
          > command in the East,


          for some reason I never considered this exact combination, but not
          elevating Longstreet to army command was a huge mistake for the CSA,
          IMHO. Your arrangement appeals to me.


          > after Chattanooga,


          I favor the time period prior to the fall of Vicksburg; but replacing
          Bragg may have cost too much in political capital at this earlier
          time, granted.


          > probably would have been the
          > Confederacy's best course of action. There are several major
          > positives and negatives in this plan and, if everyone will bear with
          > me real quick, I'm gonna try to lay 'em out.
          >
          > First the weakness:
          >
          > 1. LONGSTREET'S LACKLUSTER RECORD AS AN INDEPENDANT COMMANDER: For
          > whatever reason "Pete" had a fairly lackluster record as an
          > independant commander. While he admittedly faced several handicaps
          > at Knoxville and during his tenure in command of a department in
          > southeastern Virginia, such as having to deal with a number of
          > generals Lee had banished there so Marse Robert himself would no
          > longer have to worry about them, the record remains disturbing at
          > best. Just how would Longstreet have fared if given complete control
          > of the ANV? There is enough evidence out there to cast some serious
          > doubt on his abilities as an independant commander.



          Good point, but I really think he would have risen to the occassion.


          > 2. LEE'S OWN RELUCTANCE TO LEAVE THE ANV: Lee was a Virginian by
          > birth, by early 1864 he wanted to keep command of the ANV, which he
          > had more than earned and proved himself a master at commanding.
          > Furthermore Lee's reluctance to leave a theater he knew so well, for
          > one he knew very little about is a legitimate objection. I would
          > also add to this Davis' heavy reliance on having Lee nearby, not
          > only as commander of the ANV, but as a valued friend and general to
          > consult with. Nevertheless, given Lee's notion of honor and devotion
          > to duty, there is no doubt in my mind that had Davis actually
          > ordered him out west, he would have went.




          In the balance of things, it usually comes up to Davis's shortcomings,
          failure of vision, cronyism, whatever... a failure in almost
          everything, I am no fan of Jeff Davis as some here will undoubtably
          remember. Apologies to those who think I am a bit shrill on this.



          > 3. THE REACTION OF THE ANV: While there is no doubt that the ANV
          > dearly loved Longstreet, and held him in high esteem, the regard
          > they had for him could never compare to that they had for Lee.
          > Understandably no general would ever hold in their hearts the place
          > that Lee did. Again, nevertheless, if Lee were sent West after
          > Chattanooga, given the circumstances, and the fact that by 1864 the
          > ANV was an actual army in discipline as well as name, I think the
          > change just might have worked.



          The men usually decided they liked someone who kept the casualties
          down, and L. would have done this and also succeeded in winning
          battles, IMO.



          > Now the strenghts:
          >
          > 1. LEE'S AGRESSIVENESS, COMPETENCE AS A COMMANDER, AND ABILITY TO
          > SEE OPPORTUNITY WHERE OTHERS SAW DISASTER: Lee is exactly the type
          > of commander that was needed in the West. One who always remained
          > inherently aggressive, and looked for ways to attack the enemy
          > rather than lamenting the shortcomings he faced. If anyone could
          > have viewed the Confederate situation out West, after Chattanooga,
          > and found a way to counterattack the Union advance it would have
          > been Lee. Moreover he would have brought a sense of the offensive
          > that was often missing in the AoT's commanders (Johnston), although
          > not the AoT itself.


          I have to believe the results would have been good and tremendously
          helped the Confederacy.


          > 2. LEE'S PERSONALITY: His unique ability to balance delicate and
          > often intemperate subordinates. This was a key in the AoT and one
          > that all of its previous commanders, including chiefly Bragg and
          > Johnston, simply missed. Men like Forrest and even Hood would not
          > have bucked Lee as easily as they did Johnston. A situation like
          > Cassville, where Hood's attitude toward Johnston, his motivations,
          > and his actions were questionable, simply would not have happened
          > under Lee. Hood, along with pretty much every other commander in the
          > Confederacy revered Lee. It's safe to say even a man like Forrest
          > probably would not have reacted to Lee the same way he did to Bragg
          > for several reasons. (The first of which is that Lee always highly
          > valued the reports of his cavalry and paid close attention to them.
          > The second that he was a far more competent operational commander
          > than Bragg could ever hope to be, and the third that he was simply
          > Robert E. Lee.) Finally men like Cleburne would have been given the
          > opportunity to either prove themselves as leaders at higher command
          > positions, failed and been moved back to their original command, or
          > simply shuffled to another theater as Lee was so adroit at doing.
          > (When I look at Cleburne out West I can't help but think of John B.
          > Gordon out East. It's hard for me to believe that Clebure would not
          > have been, at least temporarily, allowed to try his hand at a corps
          > command under Lee.)


          Absolutely on the money here.


          > 3. THE INHERENT PERSONALITY FLAWS IN THE OTHER COMMANDERS OF THE
          > AoT: Say what you like about Johnston, Beauregard and Bragg but they
          > were simply not as easy to get along with as Lee. Moreover, with
          > respect to Davis, it has always seemed rather beside the point to me
          > whether or not Johnston and Beauregard were right about his
          > treatment of them. The point is HE, Davis, not them was the
          > President of the Confederacy. The president MUST always have
          > complete faith in his subordinates and trust their judgement. If he
          > can't, even because of his own personal shortcomings, these men must
          > be relieved or else the command will suffer. With Lee, Davis would
          > have been able to have complete confidence, for the first time since
          > Albert Sidney Johnston, in the commander of the AoT. This doubtless
          > would have been a better military arrangement for all involved, and
          > elevated the morale of the army. Not only would they like their
          > commander (as they did Joe Johnston) or the president support him
          > (as he did Bragg), but rather both the army and the president would
          > both support the commanding general at the same time. A rather novel
          > notion out west.


          also a good point


          > 4. LONGSTREET'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE GRAND STRATEGIC PLAN OUT EAST:
          > Longstreet's idea of remaining on the defensive, and simply beating
          > off Federal attacks would have worked much better in Virginia than
          > it would have in Tenesse or Georgia. Think Fredericksburg. (Yes I
          > know Lee was the commanding general, but Longstreet's reading of the
          > field and handling of his own troops was masterful here. I think he
          > could have done it on a larger scale.) Although Longstreet was
          > undoubtedly better under Lee and this strategy may have had its
          > difficulties against a federal army under Grant, I don't think it
          > would have worn out the ability of the ANV to take the offensive as
          > quickly as Lee did.



          In some ways, I think Longstreet would have been more suited to the
          new situation in the East at this time than Lee proved to be.


          > In closing, and given the subsequent history, I don't believe Davis
          > really had any other viable options. Lee out West, and Longstreet in
          > the East, at least until the elections of 1864, and the hope that
          > Lee could have kept Sherman out of Atlanta, would have been a
          > pretty good hand to play.
          >
          > Sorry if this post was too long, but you know what they say. Figured
          > I'd try to make somewhat of a good first impression.


          I think you have succeeded in that good impression, sir.

          Carl
        • illiniillinois
          Sorry but I had to reply to this. What would the central deparment in the West have looked like to you, Tom? Tenesse, Georgia, South Carolina and North
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Sorry but I had to reply to this. What would the central deparment
            in the West have looked like to you, Tom? Tenesse, Georgia, South
            Carolina and North Carolina? This seems like one of the most
            intersting ideas to me yet and the more I think on it a darn good
            idea. Curious on what you were thinking.

            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
            > I think the South had three capable leaders after the death of A.S.
            > Johnston. R.E. Lee, Joe Johnston and Beauregard. What they had was
            a
            > horrible road network (to call it a "network" is a compliment) that
            > covered a territory that was simply too large for an East, a West
            and a
            > Southern Mississippi. They needed a third area between Lee and the
            West.
            > Beauregard could have been left in command of the West and Northern
            > Mississippi region and Joe Johnston put in charge of a middle area
            > around Knoxville, Chattanooga and Georgia.
            > Just a thought and probably a lousy one. But something to consider.
            > Don't think about Davis and his prejudices. We know of them. This
            is an
            > alternative thought of could be done if Davis really wanted to do
            > something that would utilized the best available talent.
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Mark Peters [mailto:mark.peters14@b...]
            > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:18 PM
            > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
            > commander in the West?
            >
            >
            >
            > Davis wanted a commission at the beginning of the war, but ended
            up
            > with the Presidency. He was the one that never got over this, and
            > hence his continuous dabblings. That's my opinion, anyway.
            >
            > However, I don't agree that Beauregard and Johnston were in the
            > wrong, because they didn't accept his war record and military
            > ambitions. Rather, they were the ones in the field, and should
            have
            > been given the responsibility to act upon their commissions.
            >
            > Best wishes,
            >
            > Mark
            >
            > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
            > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Thanks for the response mark. Yeah you bring up a good point. I
            > > hadn't even thought of Davis' fixation on the East.
            > >
            > > Also I don't have that big a problem with Beauregard either.
            > Granted
            > > the man thought he was another Napoleon and he had a fixation
            with
            > > overly ambitious, grand strategic plans, but once he was brought
            > > back down to earth he was able to tailor his plans based
            somewhat
            > > more on reality. I think First Manassas was a good example of
            > this,
            > > even though a lot of the credit goes to Joe Johnston for that.
            His
            > > defense of Petersburg was also much better than he traditionally
            > > gets credit for, IMHO.
            > >
            > > Anyway I know this is a western discussion board, and,
            especially
            > > being the new guy, I don't mean to stray too much. As for Davis
            I
            > > couldn't agree more. I think the Confederacy's biggest problem
            was
            > > his firm belief that because of his previous experience in
            Mexico
            > > and as Secretary in War he was, in his opinion, almost a de
            facto
            > > general. I just happen to think that he was the president of the
            > > CSA, for better or worse, and Beauregard and Johnston would have
            > > been a lot better off, both from a personal and military
            > > perspective, if they had swallowed their pride and dealt with
            this
            > > fact.
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Peters"
            > > <mark.peters14@b...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > You highlight several problems.
            > > >
            > > > Firstly, my belief is that Lee refused command in the West.
            So,
            > > he
            > > > wasn't a viable option. Davis, as did Lee, thought the war
            > would
            > > be
            > > > won in the east. There is no way that he would have wanted
            his
            > > best
            > > > commander in the west, on a permanent basis.
            > > >
            > > > Of those willing to serve, as I've stated before, my belief is
            > > that
            > > > Beauregard was the best option. The fact that Davis
            > continuously
            > > > meddled in military affairs surely shows that politicians
            should
            > > > allow their military commanders to get on with it. Because
            > Davis
            > > > did not get on, at a personal level, with Beauregard or J.
            > > Johnston
            > > > should not have precluded them from continuous command out
            west.
            > > >
            > > > I do agree with you on Cleburne!
            > > >
            > > > Best wishes,
            > > >
            > > > Mark
            > > >
            > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
            > > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Hi everyone, I'm fairly new here. Been lurking for a while,
            > and
            > > > have
            > > > > read most of the posts on who would have been the best
            choice
            > > with
            > > > > respect to the Confederacy for commander in the West. Best
            > > option,
            > > > > IMHO, Lee.
            > > > >
            > > > > I know this has been suggested before, and Davis himself
            even
            > > > > considered it, but rejected it partially because of Lee's
            > > > > reluctance. Nevertheless, sending Lee west and placing
            > > Longstreet
            > > > in
            > > > > command in the East, after Chattanooga, probably would have
            > been
            > > > the
            > > > > Confederacy's best course of action. There are several major
            > > > > positives and negatives in this plan and, if everyone will
            > bear
            > > > with
            > > > > me real quick, I'm gonna try to lay 'em out.
            > > > >
            > > > > First the weakness:
            > > > >
            > > > > 1. LONGSTREET'S LACKLUSTER RECORD AS AN INDEPENDANT
            COMMANDER:
            > > For
            > > > > whatever reason "Pete" had a fairly lackluster record as an
            > > > > independant commander. While he admittedly faced several
            > > handicaps
            > > > > at Knoxville and during his tenure in command of a
            department
            > in
            > > > > southeastern Virginia, such as having to deal with a number
            of
            > > > > generals Lee had banished there so Marse Robert himself
            would
            > no
            > > > > longer have to worry about them, the record remains
            disturbing
            > > at
            > > > > best. Just how would Longstreet have fared if given complete
            > > > control
            > > > > of the ANV? There is enough evidence out there to cast some
            > > > serious
            > > > > doubt on his abilities as an independant commander.
            > > > >
            > > > > 2. LEE'S OWN RELUCTANCE TO LEAVE THE ANV: Lee was a
            Virginian
            > by
            > > > > birth, by early 1864 he wanted to keep command of the ANV,
            > which
            > > > he
            > > > > had more than earned and proved himself a master at
            > commanding.
            > > > > Furthermore Lee's reluctance to leave a theater he knew so
            > well,
            > > > for
            > > > > one he knew very little about is a legitimate objection. I
            > would
            > > > > also add to this Davis' heavy reliance on having Lee nearby,
            > not
            > > > > only as commander of the ANV, but as a valued friend and
            > general
            > > > to
            > > > > consult with. Nevertheless, given Lee's notion of honor and
            > > > devotion
            > > > > to duty, there is no doubt in my mind that had Davis
            actually
            > > > > ordered him out west, he would have went.
            > > > >
            > > > > 3. THE REACTION OF THE ANV: While there is no doubt that the
            > ANV
            > > > > dearly loved Longstreet, and held him in high esteem, the
            > regard
            > > > > they had for him could never compare to that they had for
            Lee.
            > > > > Understandably no general would ever hold in their hearts
            the
            > > > place
            > > > > that Lee did. Again, nevertheless, if Lee were sent West
            after
            > > > > Chattanooga, given the circumstances, and the fact that by
            > 1864
            > > > the
            > > > > ANV was an actual army in discipline as well as name, I
            think
            > > the
            > > > > change just might have worked.
            > > > >
            > > > > Now the strenghts:
            > > > >
            > > > > 1. LEE'S AGRESSIVENESS, COMPETENCE AS A COMMANDER, AND
            ABILITY
            > > TO
            > > > > SEE OPPORTUNITY WHERE OTHERS SAW DISASTER: Lee is exactly
            the
            > > type
            > > > > of commander that was needed in the West. One who always
            > > remained
            > > > > inherently aggressive, and looked for ways to attack the
            enemy
            > > > > rather than lamenting the shortcomings he faced. If anyone
            > could
            > > > > have viewed the Confederate situation out West, after
            > > Chattanooga,
            > > > > and found a way to counterattack the Union advance it would
            > have
            > > > > been Lee. Moreover he would have brought a sense of the
            > > offensive
            > > > > that was often missing in the AoT's commanders (Johnston),
            > > > although
            > > > > not the AoT itself.
            > > > >
            > > > > 2. LEE'S PERSONALITY: His unique ability to balance delicate
            > and
            > > > > often intemperate subordinates. This was a key in the AoT
            and
            > > one
            > > > > that all of its previous commanders, including chiefly Bragg
            > and
            > > > > Johnston, simply missed. Men like Forrest and even Hood
            would
            > > not
            > > > > have bucked Lee as easily as they did Johnston. A situation
            > like
            > > > > Cassville, where Hood's attitude toward Johnston, his
            > > motivations,
            > > > > and his actions were questionable, simply would not have
            > > happened
            > > > > under Lee. Hood, along with pretty much every other
            commander
            > in
            > > > the
            > > > > Confederacy revered Lee. It's safe to say even a man like
            > > Forrest
            > > > > probably would not have reacted to Lee the same way he did
            to
            > > > Bragg
            > > > > for several reasons. (The first of which is that Lee always
            > > highly
            > > > > valued the reports of his cavalry and paid close attention
            to
            > > > them.
            > > > > The second that he was a far more competent operational
            > > commander
            > > > > than Bragg could ever hope to be, and the third that he was
            > > simply
            > > > > Robert E. Lee.) Finally men like Cleburne would have been
            > given
            > > > the
            > > > > opportunity to either prove themselves as leaders at higher
            > > > command
            > > > > positions, failed and been moved back to their original
            > command,
            > > > or
            > > > > simply shuffled to another theater as Lee was so adroit at
            > > doing.
            > > > > (When I look at Cleburne out West I can't help but think of
            > John
            > > > B.
            > > > > Gordon out East. It's hard for me to believe that Clebure
            > would
            > > > not
            > > > > have been, at least temporarily, allowed to try his hand at
            a
            > > > corps
            > > > > command under Lee.)
            > > > >
            > > > > 3. THE INHERENT PERSONALITY FLAWS IN THE OTHER COMMANDERS OF
            > THE
            > > > > AoT: Say what you like about Johnston, Beauregard and Bragg
            > but
            > > > they
            > > > > were simply not as easy to get along with as Lee. Moreover,
            > with
            > > > > respect to Davis, it has always seemed rather beside the
            point
            > > to
            > > > me
            > > > > whether or not Johnston and Beauregard were right about his
            > > > > treatment of them. The point is HE, Davis, not them was the
            > > > > President of the Confederacy. The president MUST always have
            > > > > complete faith in his subordinates and trust their
            judgement.
            > If
            > > > he
            > > > > can't, even because of his own personal shortcomings, these
            > men
            > > > must
            > > > > be relieved or else the command will suffer. With Lee, Davis
            > > would
            > > > > have been able to have complete confidence, for the first
            time
            > > > since
            > > > > Albert Sidney Johnston, in the commander of the AoT. This
            > > > doubtless
            > > > > would have been a better military arrangement for all
            > involved,
            > > > and
            > > > > elevated the morale of the army. Not only would they like
            > their
            > > > > commander (as they did Joe Johnston) or the president
            support
            > > him
            > > > > (as he did Bragg), but rather both the army and the
            president
            > > > would
            > > > > both support the commanding general at the same time. A
            rather
            > > > novel
            > > > > notion out west.
            > > > >
            > > > > 4. LONGSTREET'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE GRAND STRATEGIC PLAN
            OUT
            > > > EAST:
            > > > > Longstreet's idea of remaining on the defensive, and simply
            > > > beating
            > > > > off Federal attacks would have worked much better in
            Virginia
            > > than
            > > > > it would have in Tenesse or Georgia. Think Fredericksburg.
            > (Yes
            > > I
            > > > > know Lee was the commanding general, but Longstreet's
            reading
            > of
            > > > the
            > > > > field and handling of his own troops was masterful here. I
            > think
            > > > he
            > > > > could have done it on a larger scale.) Although Longstreet
            was
            > > > > undoubtedly better under Lee and this strategy may have had
            > its
            > > > > difficulties against a federal army under Grant, I don't
            think
            > > it
            > > > > would have worn out the ability of the ANV to take the
            > offensive
            > > > as
            > > > > quickly as Lee did.
            > > > >
            > > > > In closing, and given the subsequent history, I don't
            believe
            > > > Davis
            > > > > really had any other viable options. Lee out West, and
            > > Longstreet
            > > > in
            > > > > the East, at least until the elections of 1864, and the hope
            > > that
            > > > > Lee could have kept Sherman out of Atlanta, would have been
            a
            > > > > pretty good hand to play.
            > > > >
            > > > > Sorry if this post was too long, but you know what they say.
            > > > Figured
            > > > > I'd try to make somewhat of a good first impression.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Tom Mix
            I would include central and east Tennessee, Georgia, possibly inland S.C. but not coastal Georgia. I would have a Coastal Defense as a separate entity. Having
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              I would include central and east Tennessee, Georgia, possibly inland
              S.C. but not coastal Georgia. I would have a Coastal Defense as a
              separate entity. Having to defend Nashville and the Savannah coast is
              just nonsensical. To the West the area could be from Nashville to the
              Mississippi River and South to below Vicksburg. Taylor could command the
              Tran-Miss area and Texas. The AOT was grossly over extended as A.S.
              Johnston rapidly discovered. Drawing a middle or central department
              would add more focus to their efforts. Trying to communicate and
              coordinate from Knoxville to Vicksburg was not feasible and it just
              simply did not work.

              This is just a rough outline of a concept or theory that needs further
              discussion. But I think it would have been a viable alternative to what
              actually occurred and failed. They had several capable leaders who kept
              replacing each other. This program would have put the available talent
              into the game together, enhanced communication, provided more structure
              and allowed the Department commander to focus on a more centralized set
              of problems, tasks and circumstances.
              Just a thought...

              -----Original Message-----
              From: illiniillinois [mailto:illiniillinois@...]
              Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 2:18 AM
              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
              commander in the West?



              Sorry but I had to reply to this. What would the central deparment
              in the West have looked like to you, Tom? Tenesse, Georgia, South
              Carolina and North Carolina? This seems like one of the most
              intersting ideas to me yet and the more I think on it a darn good
              idea. Curious on what you were thinking.

              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
              > I think the South had three capable leaders after the death of A.S.
              > Johnston. R.E. Lee, Joe Johnston and Beauregard. What they had was
              a
              > horrible road network (to call it a "network" is a compliment) that
              > covered a territory that was simply too large for an East, a West
              and a
              > Southern Mississippi. They needed a third area between Lee and the
              West.
              > Beauregard could have been left in command of the West and Northern
              > Mississippi region and Joe Johnston put in charge of a middle area
              > around Knoxville, Chattanooga and Georgia.
              > Just a thought and probably a lousy one. But something to consider.
              > Don't think about Davis and his prejudices. We know of them. This
              is an
              > alternative thought of could be done if Davis really wanted to do
              > something that would utilized the best available talent.
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Mark Peters [mailto:mark.peters14@b...]
              > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:18 PM
              > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
              > commander in the West?
              >
              >
              >
              > Davis wanted a commission at the beginning of the war, but ended
              up
              > with the Presidency. He was the one that never got over this, and
              > hence his continuous dabblings. That's my opinion, anyway.
              >
              > However, I don't agree that Beauregard and Johnston were in the
              > wrong, because they didn't accept his war record and military
              > ambitions. Rather, they were the ones in the field, and should
              have
              > been given the responsibility to act upon their commissions.
              >
              > Best wishes,
              >
              > Mark
              >
              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
              > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks for the response mark. Yeah you bring up a good point. I
              > > hadn't even thought of Davis' fixation on the East.
              > >
              > > Also I don't have that big a problem with Beauregard either.
              > Granted
              > > the man thought he was another Napoleon and he had a fixation
              with
              > > overly ambitious, grand strategic plans, but once he was brought
              > > back down to earth he was able to tailor his plans based
              somewhat
              > > more on reality. I think First Manassas was a good example of
              > this,
              > > even though a lot of the credit goes to Joe Johnston for that.
              His
              > > defense of Petersburg was also much better than he traditionally
              > > gets credit for, IMHO.
              > >
              > > Anyway I know this is a western discussion board, and,
              especially
              > > being the new guy, I don't mean to stray too much. As for Davis
              I
              > > couldn't agree more. I think the Confederacy's biggest problem
              was
              > > his firm belief that because of his previous experience in
              Mexico
              > > and as Secretary in War he was, in his opinion, almost a de
              facto
              > > general. I just happen to think that he was the president of the
              > > CSA, for better or worse, and Beauregard and Johnston would have
              > > been a lot better off, both from a personal and military
              > > perspective, if they had swallowed their pride and dealt with
              this
              > > fact.
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Peters"
              > > <mark.peters14@b...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > You highlight several problems.
              > > >
              > > > Firstly, my belief is that Lee refused command in the West.
              So,
              > > he
              > > > wasn't a viable option. Davis, as did Lee, thought the war
              > would
              > > be
              > > > won in the east. There is no way that he would have wanted
              his
              > > best
              > > > commander in the west, on a permanent basis.
              > > >
              > > > Of those willing to serve, as I've stated before, my belief is
              > > that
              > > > Beauregard was the best option. The fact that Davis
              > continuously
              > > > meddled in military affairs surely shows that politicians
              should
              > > > allow their military commanders to get on with it. Because
              > Davis
              > > > did not get on, at a personal level, with Beauregard or J.
              > > Johnston
              > > > should not have precluded them from continuous command out
              west.
              > > >
              > > > I do agree with you on Cleburne!
              > > >
              > > > Best wishes,
              > > >
              > > > Mark
              > > >
              > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
              > > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hi everyone, I'm fairly new here. Been lurking for a while,
              > and
              > > > have
              > > > > read most of the posts on who would have been the best
              choice
              > > with
              > > > > respect to the Confederacy for commander in the West. Best
              > > option,
              > > > > IMHO, Lee.
              > > > >
              > > > > I know this has been suggested before, and Davis himself
              even
              > > > > considered it, but rejected it partially because of Lee's
              > > > > reluctance. Nevertheless, sending Lee west and placing
              > > Longstreet
              > > > in
              > > > > command in the East, after Chattanooga, probably would have
              > been
              > > > the
              > > > > Confederacy's best course of action. There are several major
              > > > > positives and negatives in this plan and, if everyone will
              > bear
              > > > with
              > > > > me real quick, I'm gonna try to lay 'em out.
              > > > >
              > > > > First the weakness:
              > > > >
              > > > > 1. LONGSTREET'S LACKLUSTER RECORD AS AN INDEPENDANT
              COMMANDER:
              > > For
              > > > > whatever reason "Pete" had a fairly lackluster record as an
              > > > > independant commander. While he admittedly faced several
              > > handicaps
              > > > > at Knoxville and during his tenure in command of a
              department
              > in
              > > > > southeastern Virginia, such as having to deal with a number
              of
              > > > > generals Lee had banished there so Marse Robert himself
              would
              > no
              > > > > longer have to worry about them, the record remains
              disturbing
              > > at
              > > > > best. Just how would Longstreet have fared if given complete
              > > > control
              > > > > of the ANV? There is enough evidence out there to cast some
              > > > serious
              > > > > doubt on his abilities as an independant commander.
              > > > >
              > > > > 2. LEE'S OWN RELUCTANCE TO LEAVE THE ANV: Lee was a
              Virginian
              > by
              > > > > birth, by early 1864 he wanted to keep command of the ANV,
              > which
              > > > he
              > > > > had more than earned and proved himself a master at
              > commanding.
              > > > > Furthermore Lee's reluctance to leave a theater he knew so
              > well,
              > > > for
              > > > > one he knew very little about is a legitimate objection. I
              > would
              > > > > also add to this Davis' heavy reliance on having Lee nearby,
              > not
              > > > > only as commander of the ANV, but as a valued friend and
              > general
              > > > to
              > > > > consult with. Nevertheless, given Lee's notion of honor and
              > > > devotion
              > > > > to duty, there is no doubt in my mind that had Davis
              actually
              > > > > ordered him out west, he would have went.
              > > > >
              > > > > 3. THE REACTION OF THE ANV: While there is no doubt that the
              > ANV
              > > > > dearly loved Longstreet, and held him in high esteem, the
              > regard
              > > > > they had for him could never compare to that they had for
              Lee.
              > > > > Understandably no general would ever hold in their hearts
              the
              > > > place
              > > > > that Lee did. Again, nevertheless, if Lee were sent West
              after
              > > > > Chattanooga, given the circumstances, and the fact that by
              > 1864
              > > > the
              > > > > ANV was an actual army in discipline as well as name, I
              think
              > > the
              > > > > change just might have worked.
              > > > >
              > > > > Now the strenghts:
              > > > >
              > > > > 1. LEE'S AGRESSIVENESS, COMPETENCE AS A COMMANDER, AND
              ABILITY
              > > TO
              > > > > SEE OPPORTUNITY WHERE OTHERS SAW DISASTER: Lee is exactly
              the
              > > type
              > > > > of commander that was needed in the West. One who always
              > > remained
              > > > > inherently aggressive, and looked for ways to attack the
              enemy
              > > > > rather than lamenting the shortcomings he faced. If anyone
              > could
              > > > > have viewed the Confederate situation out West, after
              > > Chattanooga,
              > > > > and found a way to counterattack the Union advance it would
              > have
              > > > > been Lee. Moreover he would have brought a sense of the
              > > offensive
              > > > > that was often missing in the AoT's commanders (Johnston),
              > > > although
              > > > > not the AoT itself.
              > > > >
              > > > > 2. LEE'S PERSONALITY: His unique ability to balance delicate
              > and
              > > > > often intemperate subordinates. This was a key in the AoT
              and
              > > one
              > > > > that all of its previous commanders, including chiefly Bragg
              > and
              > > > > Johnston, simply missed. Men like Forrest and even Hood
              would
              > > not
              > > > > have bucked Lee as easily as they did Johnston. A situation
              > like
              > > > > Cassville, where Hood's attitude toward Johnston, his
              > > motivations,
              > > > > and his actions were questionable, simply would not have
              > > happened
              > > > > under Lee. Hood, along with pretty much every other
              commander
              > in
              > > > the
              > > > > Confederacy revered Lee. It's safe to say even a man like
              > > Forrest
              > > > > probably would not have reacted to Lee the same way he did
              to
              > > > Bragg
              > > > > for several reasons. (The first of which is that Lee always
              > > highly
              > > > > valued the reports of his cavalry and paid close attention
              to
              > > > them.
              > > > > The second that he was a far more competent operational
              > > commander
              > > > > than Bragg could ever hope to be, and the third that he was
              > > simply
              > > > > Robert E. Lee.) Finally men like Cleburne would have been
              > given
              > > > the
              > > > > opportunity to either prove themselves as leaders at higher
              > > > command
              > > > > positions, failed and been moved back to their original
              > command,
              > > > or
              > > > > simply shuffled to another theater as Lee was so adroit at
              > > doing.
              > > > > (When I look at Cleburne out West I can't help but think of
              > John
              > > > B.
              > > > > Gordon out East. It's hard for me to believe that Clebure
              > would
              > > > not
              > > > > have been, at least temporarily, allowed to try his hand at
              a
              > > > corps
              > > > > command under Lee.)
              > > > >
              > > > > 3. THE INHERENT PERSONALITY FLAWS IN THE OTHER COMMANDERS OF
              > THE
              > > > > AoT: Say what you like about Johnston, Beauregard and Bragg
              > but
              > > > they
              > > > > were simply not as easy to get along with as Lee. Moreover,
              > with
              > > > > respect to Davis, it has always seemed rather beside the
              point
              > > to
              > > > me
              > > > > whether or not Johnston and Beauregard were right about his
              > > > > treatment of them. The point is HE, Davis, not them was the
              > > > > President of the Confederacy. The president MUST always have
              > > > > complete faith in his subordinates and trust their
              judgement.
              > If
              > > > he
              > > > > can't, even because of his own personal shortcomings, these
              > men
              > > > must
              > > > > be relieved or else the command will suffer. With Lee, Davis
              > > would
              > > > > have been able to have complete confidence, for the first
              time
              > > > since
              > > > > Albert Sidney Johnston, in the commander of the AoT. This
              > > > doubtless
              > > > > would have been a better military arrangement for all
              > involved,
              > > > and
              > > > > elevated the morale of the army. Not only would they like
              > their
              > > > > commander (as they did Joe Johnston) or the president
              support
              > > him
              > > > > (as he did Bragg), but rather both the army and the
              president
              > > > would
              > > > > both support the commanding general at the same time. A
              rather
              > > > novel
              > > > > notion out west.
              > > > >
              > > > > 4. LONGSTREET'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE GRAND STRATEGIC PLAN
              OUT
              > > > EAST:
              > > > > Longstreet's idea of remaining on the defensive, and simply
              > > > beating
              > > > > off Federal attacks would have worked much better in
              Virginia
              > > than
              > > > > it would have in Tenesse or Georgia. Think Fredericksburg.
              > (Yes
              > > I
              > > > > know Lee was the commanding general, but Longstreet's
              reading
              > of
              > > > the
              > > > > field and handling of his own troops was masterful here. I
              > think
              > > > he
              > > > > could have done it on a larger scale.) Although Longstreet
              was
              > > > > undoubtedly better under Lee and this strategy may have had
              > its
              > > > > difficulties against a federal army under Grant, I don't
              think
              > > it
              > > > > would have worn out the ability of the ANV to take the
              > offensive
              > > > as
              > > > > quickly as Lee did.
              > > > >
              > > > > In closing, and given the subsequent history, I don't
              believe
              > > > Davis
              > > > > really had any other viable options. Lee out West, and
              > > Longstreet
              > > > in
              > > > > the East, at least until the elections of 1864, and the hope
              > > that
              > > > > Lee could have kept Sherman out of Atlanta, would have been
              a
              > > > > pretty good hand to play.
              > > > >
              > > > > Sorry if this post was too long, but you know what they say.
              > > > Figured
              > > > > I'd try to make somewhat of a good first impression.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links







              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • William H Keene
              Isn t your idea what was done in the fall of 1862: - Bragg commanded an area consisting of central and eastern Tennesee plus the northern portions of Georgia
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Isn't your idea what was done in the fall of 1862:
                - Bragg commanded an area consisting of central and eastern Tennesee plus the northern
                portions of Georgia and Alabama;
                - Pemberton commanded Mississippi. eastern Louisiana and ambitions of retaking western
                Tennessee;
                JEJ was given authority over both Departments in hopes of providing some level of
                coordination. Coastal Georgia and South Carolina was a separate Department under
                Beauregard. This structure lasted until early 1864.




                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                > I would include central and east Tennessee, Georgia, possibly inland
                > S.C. but not coastal Georgia. I would have a Coastal Defense as a
                > separate entity. Having to defend Nashville and the Savannah coast is
                > just nonsensical. To the West the area could be from Nashville to the
                > Mississippi River and South to below Vicksburg. Taylor could command the
                > Tran-Miss area and Texas. The AOT was grossly over extended as A.S.
                > Johnston rapidly discovered. Drawing a middle or central department
                > would add more focus to their efforts. Trying to communicate and
                > coordinate from Knoxville to Vicksburg was not feasible and it just
                > simply did not work.
                >
                > This is just a rough outline of a concept or theory that needs further
                > discussion. But I think it would have been a viable alternative to what
                > actually occurred and failed. They had several capable leaders who kept
                > replacing each other. This program would have put the available talent
                > into the game together, enhanced communication, provided more structure
                > and allowed the Department commander to focus on a more centralized set
                > of problems, tasks and circumstances.
                > Just a thought...
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: illiniillinois [mailto:illiniillinois@y...]
                > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 2:18 AM
                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                > commander in the West?
                >
                >
                >
                > Sorry but I had to reply to this. What would the central deparment
                > in the West have looked like to you, Tom? Tenesse, Georgia, South
                > Carolina and North Carolina? This seems like one of the most
                > intersting ideas to me yet and the more I think on it a darn good
                > idea. Curious on what you were thinking.
                >
                > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                > > I think the South had three capable leaders after the death of A.S.
                > > Johnston. R.E. Lee, Joe Johnston and Beauregard. What they had was
                > a
                > > horrible road network (to call it a "network" is a compliment) that
                > > covered a territory that was simply too large for an East, a West
                > and a
                > > Southern Mississippi. They needed a third area between Lee and the
                > West.
                > > Beauregard could have been left in command of the West and Northern
                > > Mississippi region and Joe Johnston put in charge of a middle area
                > > around Knoxville, Chattanooga and Georgia.
                > > Just a thought and probably a lousy one. But something to consider.
                > > Don't think about Davis and his prejudices. We know of them. This
                > is an
                > > alternative thought of could be done if Davis really wanted to do
                > > something that would utilized the best available talent.
                > >
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Mark Peters [mailto:mark.peters14@b...]
                > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:18 PM
                > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                > > commander in the West?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Davis wanted a commission at the beginning of the war, but ended
                > up
                > > with the Presidency. He was the one that never got over this, and
                > > hence his continuous dabblings. That's my opinion, anyway.
                > >
                > > However, I don't agree that Beauregard and Johnston were in the
                > > wrong, because they didn't accept his war record and military
                > > ambitions. Rather, they were the ones in the field, and should
                > have
                > > been given the responsibility to act upon their commissions.
                > >
                > > Best wishes,
                > >
                > > Mark
                > >
                > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
                > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Thanks for the response mark. Yeah you bring up a good point. I
                > > > hadn't even thought of Davis' fixation on the East.
                > > >
                > > > Also I don't have that big a problem with Beauregard either.
                > > Granted
                > > > the man thought he was another Napoleon and he had a fixation
                > with
                > > > overly ambitious, grand strategic plans, but once he was brought
                > > > back down to earth he was able to tailor his plans based
                > somewhat
                > > > more on reality. I think First Manassas was a good example of
                > > this,
                > > > even though a lot of the credit goes to Joe Johnston for that.
                > His
                > > > defense of Petersburg was also much better than he traditionally
                > > > gets credit for, IMHO.
                > > >
                > > > Anyway I know this is a western discussion board, and,
                > especially
                > > > being the new guy, I don't mean to stray too much. As for Davis
                > I
                > > > couldn't agree more. I think the Confederacy's biggest problem
                > was
                > > > his firm belief that because of his previous experience in
                > Mexico
                > > > and as Secretary in War he was, in his opinion, almost a de
                > facto
                > > > general. I just happen to think that he was the president of the
                > > > CSA, for better or worse, and Beauregard and Johnston would have
                > > > been a lot better off, both from a personal and military
                > > > perspective, if they had swallowed their pride and dealt with
                > this
                > > > fact.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Peters"
                > > > <mark.peters14@b...> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > You highlight several problems.
                > > > >
                > > > > Firstly, my belief is that Lee refused command in the West.
                > So,
                > > > he
                > > > > wasn't a viable option. Davis, as did Lee, thought the war
                > > would
                > > > be
                > > > > won in the east. There is no way that he would have wanted
                > his
                > > > best
                > > > > commander in the west, on a permanent basis.
                > > > >
                > > > > Of those willing to serve, as I've stated before, my belief is
                > > > that
                > > > > Beauregard was the best option. The fact that Davis
                > > continuously
                > > > > meddled in military affairs surely shows that politicians
                > should
                > > > > allow their military commanders to get on with it. Because
                > > Davis
                > > > > did not get on, at a personal level, with Beauregard or J.
                > > > Johnston
                > > > > should not have precluded them from continuous command out
                > west.
                > > > >
                > > > > I do agree with you on Cleburne!
                > > > >
                > > > > Best wishes,
                > > > >
                > > > > Mark
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
                > > > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Hi everyone, I'm fairly new here. Been lurking for a while,
                > > and
                > > > > have
                > > > > > read most of the posts on who would have been the best
                > choice
                > > > with
                > > > > > respect to the Confederacy for commander in the West. Best
                > > > option,
                > > > > > IMHO, Lee.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I know this has been suggested before, and Davis himself
                > even
                > > > > > considered it, but rejected it partially because of Lee's
                > > > > > reluctance. Nevertheless, sending Lee west and placing
                > > > Longstreet
                > > > > in
                > > > > > command in the East, after Chattanooga, probably would have
                > > been
                > > > > the
                > > > > > Confederacy's best course of action. There are several major
                > > > > > positives and negatives in this plan and, if everyone will
                > > bear
                > > > > with
                > > > > > me real quick, I'm gonna try to lay 'em out.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > First the weakness:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 1. LONGSTREET'S LACKLUSTER RECORD AS AN INDEPENDANT
                > COMMANDER:
                > > > For
                > > > > > whatever reason "Pete" had a fairly lackluster record as an
                > > > > > independant commander. While he admittedly faced several
                > > > handicaps
                > > > > > at Knoxville and during his tenure in command of a
                > department
                > > in
                > > > > > southeastern Virginia, such as having to deal with a number
                > of
                > > > > > generals Lee had banished there so Marse Robert himself
                > would
                > > no
                > > > > > longer have to worry about them, the record remains
                > disturbing
                > > > at
                > > > > > best. Just how would Longstreet have fared if given complete
                > > > > control
                > > > > > of the ANV? There is enough evidence out there to cast some
                > > > > serious
                > > > > > doubt on his abilities as an independant commander.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 2. LEE'S OWN RELUCTANCE TO LEAVE THE ANV: Lee was a
                > Virginian
                > > by
                > > > > > birth, by early 1864 he wanted to keep command of the ANV,
                > > which
                > > > > he
                > > > > > had more than earned and proved himself a master at
                > > commanding.
                > > > > > Furthermore Lee's reluctance to leave a theater he knew so
                > > well,
                > > > > for
                > > > > > one he knew very little about is a legitimate objection. I
                > > would
                > > > > > also add to this Davis' heavy reliance on having Lee nearby,
                > > not
                > > > > > only as commander of the ANV, but as a valued friend and
                > > general
                > > > > to
                > > > > > consult with. Nevertheless, given Lee's notion of honor and
                > > > > devotion
                > > > > > to duty, there is no doubt in my mind that had Davis
                > actually
                > > > > > ordered him out west, he would have went.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 3. THE REACTION OF THE ANV: While there is no doubt that the
                > > ANV
                > > > > > dearly loved Longstreet, and held him in high esteem, the
                > > regard
                > > > > > they had for him could never compare to that they had for
                > Lee.
                > > > > > Understandably no general would ever hold in their hearts
                > the
                > > > > place
                > > > > > that Lee did. Again, nevertheless, if Lee were sent West
                > after
                > > > > > Chattanooga, given the circumstances, and the fact that by
                > > 1864
                > > > > the
                > > > > > ANV was an actual army in discipline as well as name, I
                > think
                > > > the
                > > > > > change just might have worked.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Now the strenghts:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 1. LEE'S AGRESSIVENESS, COMPETENCE AS A COMMANDER, AND
                > ABILITY
                > > > TO
                > > > > > SEE OPPORTUNITY WHERE OTHERS SAW DISASTER: Lee is exactly
                > the
                > > > type
                > > > > > of commander that was needed in the West. One who always
                > > > remained
                > > > > > inherently aggressive, and looked for ways to attack the
                > enemy
                > > > > > rather than lamenting the shortcomings he faced. If anyone
                > > could
                > > > > > have viewed the Confederate situation out West, after
                > > > Chattanooga,
                > > > > > and found a way to counterattack the Union advance it would
                > > have
                > > > > > been Lee. Moreover he would have brought a sense of the
                > > > offensive
                > > > > > that was often missing in the AoT's commanders (Johnston),
                > > > > although
                > > > > > not the AoT itself.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 2. LEE'S PERSONALITY: His unique ability to balance delicate
                > > and
                > > > > > often intemperate subordinates. This was a key in the AoT
                > and
                > > > one
                > > > > > that all of its previous commanders, including chiefly Bragg
                > > and
                > > > > > Johnston, simply missed. Men like Forrest and even Hood
                > would
                > > > not
                > > > > > have bucked Lee as easily as they did Johnston. A situation
                > > like
                > > > > > Cassville, where Hood's attitude toward Johnston, his
                > > > motivations,
                > > > > > and his actions were questionable, simply would not have
                > > > happened
                > > > > > under Lee. Hood, along with pretty much every other
                > commander
                > > in
                > > > > the
                > > > > > Confederacy revered Lee. It's safe to say even a man like
                > > > Forrest
                > > > > > probably would not have reacted to Lee the same way he did
                > to
                > > > > Bragg
                > > > > > for several reasons. (The first of which is that Lee always
                > > > highly
                > > > > > valued the reports of his cavalry and paid close attention
                > to
                > > > > them.
                > > > > > The second that he was a far more competent operational
                > > > commander
                > > > > > than Bragg could ever hope to be, and the third that he was
                > > > simply
                > > > > > Robert E. Lee.) Finally men like Cleburne would have been
                > > given
                > > > > the
                > > > > > opportunity to either prove themselves as leaders at higher
                > > > > command
                > > > > > positions, failed and been moved back to their original
                > > command,
                > > > > or
                > > > > > simply shuffled to another theater as Lee was so adroit at
                > > > doing.
                > > > > > (When I look at Cleburne out West I can't help but think of
                > > John
                > > > > B.
                > > > > > Gordon out East. It's hard for me to believe that Clebure
                > > would
                > > > > not
                > > > > > have been, at least temporarily, allowed to try his hand at
                > a
                > > > > corps
                > > > > > command under Lee.)
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 3. THE INHERENT PERSONALITY FLAWS IN THE OTHER COMMANDERS OF
                > > THE
                > > > > > AoT: Say what you like about Johnston, Beauregard and Bragg
                > > but
                > > > > they
                > > > > > were simply not as easy to get along with as Lee. Moreover,
                > > with
                > > > > > respect to Davis, it has always seemed rather beside the
                > point
                > > > to
                > > > > me
                > > > > > whether or not Johnston and Beauregard were right about his
                > > > > > treatment of them. The point is HE, Davis, not them was the
                > > > > > President of the Confederacy. The president MUST always have
                > > > > > complete faith in his subordinates and trust their
                > judgement.
                > > If
                > > > > he
                > > > > > can't, even because of his own personal shortcomings, these
                > > men
                > > > > must
                > > > > > be relieved or else the command will suffer. With Lee, Davis
                > > > would
                > > > > > have been able to have complete confidence, for the first
                > time
                > > > > since
                > > > > > Albert Sidney Johnston, in the commander of the AoT. This
                > > > > doubtless
                > > > > > would have been a better military arrangement for all
                > > involved,
                > > > > and
                > > > > > elevated the morale of the army. Not only would they like
                > > their
                > > > > > commander (as they did Joe Johnston) or the president
                > support
                > > > him
                > > > > > (as he did Bragg), but rather both the army and the
                > president
                > > > > would
                > > > > > both support the commanding general at the same time. A
                > rather
                > > > > novel
                > > > > > notion out west.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > 4. LONGSTREET'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE GRAND STRATEGIC PLAN
                > OUT
                > > > > EAST:
                > > > > > Longstreet's idea of remaining on the defensive, and simply
                > > > > beating
                > > > > > off Federal attacks would have worked much better in
                > Virginia
                > > > than
                > > > > > it would have in Tenesse or Georgia. Think Fredericksburg.
                > > (Yes
                > > > I
                > > > > > know Lee was the commanding general, but Longstreet's
                > reading
                > > of
                > > > > the
                > > > > > field and handling of his own troops was masterful here. I
                > > think
                > > > > he
                > > > > > could have done it on a larger scale.) Although Longstreet
                > was
                > > > > > undoubtedly better under Lee and this strategy may have had
                > > its
                > > > > > difficulties against a federal army under Grant, I don't
                > think
                > > > it
                > > > > > would have worn out the ability of the ANV to take the
                > > offensive
                > > > > as
                > > > > > quickly as Lee did.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > In closing, and given the subsequent history, I don't
                > believe
                > > > > Davis
                > > > > > really had any other viable options. Lee out West, and
                > > > Longstreet
                > > > > in
                > > > > > the East, at least until the elections of 1864, and the hope
                > > > that
                > > > > > Lee could have kept Sherman out of Atlanta, would have been
                > a
                > > > > > pretty good hand to play.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Sorry if this post was too long, but you know what they say.
                > > > > Figured
                > > > > > I'd try to make somewhat of a good first impression.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Tom Mix
                To a degree. But you have AOT fighting from Perryville to Shiloh from Chattanooga to Mississippi. It was simply stretched too thin and the territorial command
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  To a degree. But you have AOT fighting from Perryville to Shiloh from
                  Chattanooga to Mississippi. It was simply stretched too thin and the
                  territorial command responsibilities were clearly lacking of focus. A.S.
                  Johnston had a huge territory to attempt to control and he found he
                  could not do attempting to consolidate his efforts at Shiloh. It was too
                  diverse, too unwieldy. So, what you describe did exist but was not
                  applied as it should have been. Just follow the combat history of Bragg.
                  From Shiloh to Perryville. Hood from Atlanta to Nashville. No focus.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: William H Keene [mailto:wh_keene@...]
                  Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 3:18 PM
                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                  commander in the West?



                  Isn't your idea what was done in the fall of 1862:
                  - Bragg commanded an area consisting of central and eastern Tennesee
                  plus the northern
                  portions of Georgia and Alabama;
                  - Pemberton commanded Mississippi. eastern Louisiana and ambitions of
                  retaking western
                  Tennessee;
                  JEJ was given authority over both Departments in hopes of providing some
                  level of
                  coordination. Coastal Georgia and South Carolina was a separate
                  Department under
                  Beauregard. This structure lasted until early 1864.




                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                  > I would include central and east Tennessee, Georgia, possibly inland
                  > S.C. but not coastal Georgia. I would have a Coastal Defense as a
                  > separate entity. Having to defend Nashville and the Savannah coast is
                  > just nonsensical. To the West the area could be from Nashville to the
                  > Mississippi River and South to below Vicksburg. Taylor could command
                  the
                  > Tran-Miss area and Texas. The AOT was grossly over extended as A.S.
                  > Johnston rapidly discovered. Drawing a middle or central department
                  > would add more focus to their efforts. Trying to communicate and
                  > coordinate from Knoxville to Vicksburg was not feasible and it just
                  > simply did not work.
                  >
                  > This is just a rough outline of a concept or theory that needs further
                  > discussion. But I think it would have been a viable alternative to
                  what
                  > actually occurred and failed. They had several capable leaders who
                  kept
                  > replacing each other. This program would have put the available talent
                  > into the game together, enhanced communication, provided more
                  structure
                  > and allowed the Department commander to focus on a more centralized
                  set
                  > of problems, tasks and circumstances.
                  > Just a thought...
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: illiniillinois [mailto:illiniillinois@y...]
                  > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 2:18 AM
                  > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                  > commander in the West?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sorry but I had to reply to this. What would the central deparment
                  > in the West have looked like to you, Tom? Tenesse, Georgia, South
                  > Carolina and North Carolina? This seems like one of the most
                  > intersting ideas to me yet and the more I think on it a darn good
                  > idea. Curious on what you were thinking.
                  >
                  > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                  > > I think the South had three capable leaders after the death of A.S.
                  > > Johnston. R.E. Lee, Joe Johnston and Beauregard. What they had was
                  > a
                  > > horrible road network (to call it a "network" is a compliment) that
                  > > covered a territory that was simply too large for an East, a West
                  > and a
                  > > Southern Mississippi. They needed a third area between Lee and the
                  > West.
                  > > Beauregard could have been left in command of the West and Northern
                  > > Mississippi region and Joe Johnston put in charge of a middle area
                  > > around Knoxville, Chattanooga and Georgia.
                  > > Just a thought and probably a lousy one. But something to consider.
                  > > Don't think about Davis and his prejudices. We know of them. This
                  > is an
                  > > alternative thought of could be done if Davis really wanted to do
                  > > something that would utilized the best available talent.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Mark Peters [mailto:mark.peters14@b...]
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:18 PM
                  > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                  > > commander in the West?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Davis wanted a commission at the beginning of the war, but ended
                  > up
                  > > with the Presidency. He was the one that never got over this, and
                  > > hence his continuous dabblings. That's my opinion, anyway.
                  > >
                  > > However, I don't agree that Beauregard and Johnston were in the
                  > > wrong, because they didn't accept his war record and military
                  > > ambitions. Rather, they were the ones in the field, and should
                  > have
                  > > been given the responsibility to act upon their commissions.
                  > >
                  > > Best wishes,
                  > >
                  > > Mark
                  > >
                  > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
                  > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for the response mark. Yeah you bring up a good point. I
                  > > > hadn't even thought of Davis' fixation on the East.
                  > > >
                  > > > Also I don't have that big a problem with Beauregard either.
                  > > Granted
                  > > > the man thought he was another Napoleon and he had a fixation
                  > with
                  > > > overly ambitious, grand strategic plans, but once he was brought
                  > > > back down to earth he was able to tailor his plans based
                  > somewhat
                  > > > more on reality. I think First Manassas was a good example of
                  > > this,
                  > > > even though a lot of the credit goes to Joe Johnston for that.
                  > His
                  > > > defense of Petersburg was also much better than he traditionally
                  > > > gets credit for, IMHO.
                  > > >
                  > > > Anyway I know this is a western discussion board, and,
                  > especially
                  > > > being the new guy, I don't mean to stray too much. As for Davis
                  > I
                  > > > couldn't agree more. I think the Confederacy's biggest problem
                  > was
                  > > > his firm belief that because of his previous experience in
                  > Mexico
                  > > > and as Secretary in War he was, in his opinion, almost a de
                  > facto
                  > > > general. I just happen to think that he was the president of the
                  > > > CSA, for better or worse, and Beauregard and Johnston would have
                  > > > been a lot better off, both from a personal and military
                  > > > perspective, if they had swallowed their pride and dealt with
                  > this
                  > > > fact.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Peters"
                  > > > <mark.peters14@b...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > You highlight several problems.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Firstly, my belief is that Lee refused command in the West.
                  > So,
                  > > > he
                  > > > > wasn't a viable option. Davis, as did Lee, thought the war
                  > > would
                  > > > be
                  > > > > won in the east. There is no way that he would have wanted
                  > his
                  > > > best
                  > > > > commander in the west, on a permanent basis.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Of those willing to serve, as I've stated before, my belief is
                  > > > that
                  > > > > Beauregard was the best option. The fact that Davis
                  > > continuously
                  > > > > meddled in military affairs surely shows that politicians
                  > should
                  > > > > allow their military commanders to get on with it. Because
                  > > Davis
                  > > > > did not get on, at a personal level, with Beauregard or J.
                  > > > Johnston
                  > > > > should not have precluded them from continuous command out
                  > west.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I do agree with you on Cleburne!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Best wishes,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Mark
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
                  > > > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hi everyone, I'm fairly new here. Been lurking for a while,
                  > > and
                  > > > > have
                  > > > > > read most of the posts on who would have been the best
                  > choice
                  > > > with
                  > > > > > respect to the Confederacy for commander in the West. Best
                  > > > option,
                  > > > > > IMHO, Lee.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I know this has been suggested before, and Davis himself
                  > even
                  > > > > > considered it, but rejected it partially because of Lee's
                  > > > > > reluctance. Nevertheless, sending Lee west and placing
                  > > > Longstreet
                  > > > > in
                  > > > > > command in the East, after Chattanooga, probably would have
                  > > been
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > Confederacy's best course of action. There are several major
                  > > > > > positives and negatives in this plan and, if everyone will
                  > > bear
                  > > > > with
                  > > > > > me real quick, I'm gonna try to lay 'em out.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > First the weakness:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 1. LONGSTREET'S LACKLUSTER RECORD AS AN INDEPENDANT
                  > COMMANDER:
                  > > > For
                  > > > > > whatever reason "Pete" had a fairly lackluster record as an
                  > > > > > independant commander. While he admittedly faced several
                  > > > handicaps
                  > > > > > at Knoxville and during his tenure in command of a
                  > department
                  > > in
                  > > > > > southeastern Virginia, such as having to deal with a number
                  > of
                  > > > > > generals Lee had banished there so Marse Robert himself
                  > would
                  > > no
                  > > > > > longer have to worry about them, the record remains
                  > disturbing
                  > > > at
                  > > > > > best. Just how would Longstreet have fared if given complete
                  > > > > control
                  > > > > > of the ANV? There is enough evidence out there to cast some
                  > > > > serious
                  > > > > > doubt on his abilities as an independant commander.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 2. LEE'S OWN RELUCTANCE TO LEAVE THE ANV: Lee was a
                  > Virginian
                  > > by
                  > > > > > birth, by early 1864 he wanted to keep command of the ANV,
                  > > which
                  > > > > he
                  > > > > > had more than earned and proved himself a master at
                  > > commanding.
                  > > > > > Furthermore Lee's reluctance to leave a theater he knew so
                  > > well,
                  > > > > for
                  > > > > > one he knew very little about is a legitimate objection. I
                  > > would
                  > > > > > also add to this Davis' heavy reliance on having Lee nearby,
                  > > not
                  > > > > > only as commander of the ANV, but as a valued friend and
                  > > general
                  > > > > to
                  > > > > > consult with. Nevertheless, given Lee's notion of honor and
                  > > > > devotion
                  > > > > > to duty, there is no doubt in my mind that had Davis
                  > actually
                  > > > > > ordered him out west, he would have went.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 3. THE REACTION OF THE ANV: While there is no doubt that the
                  > > ANV
                  > > > > > dearly loved Longstreet, and held him in high esteem, the
                  > > regard
                  > > > > > they had for him could never compare to that they had for
                  > Lee.
                  > > > > > Understandably no general would ever hold in their hearts
                  > the
                  > > > > place
                  > > > > > that Lee did. Again, nevertheless, if Lee were sent West
                  > after
                  > > > > > Chattanooga, given the circumstances, and the fact that by
                  > > 1864
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > ANV was an actual army in discipline as well as name, I
                  > think
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > change just might have worked.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Now the strenghts:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 1. LEE'S AGRESSIVENESS, COMPETENCE AS A COMMANDER, AND
                  > ABILITY
                  > > > TO
                  > > > > > SEE OPPORTUNITY WHERE OTHERS SAW DISASTER: Lee is exactly
                  > the
                  > > > type
                  > > > > > of commander that was needed in the West. One who always
                  > > > remained
                  > > > > > inherently aggressive, and looked for ways to attack the
                  > enemy
                  > > > > > rather than lamenting the shortcomings he faced. If anyone
                  > > could
                  > > > > > have viewed the Confederate situation out West, after
                  > > > Chattanooga,
                  > > > > > and found a way to counterattack the Union advance it would
                  > > have
                  > > > > > been Lee. Moreover he would have brought a sense of the
                  > > > offensive
                  > > > > > that was often missing in the AoT's commanders (Johnston),
                  > > > > although
                  > > > > > not the AoT itself.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 2. LEE'S PERSONALITY: His unique ability to balance delicate
                  > > and
                  > > > > > often intemperate subordinates. This was a key in the AoT
                  > and
                  > > > one
                  > > > > > that all of its previous commanders, including chiefly Bragg
                  > > and
                  > > > > > Johnston, simply missed. Men like Forrest and even Hood
                  > would
                  > > > not
                  > > > > > have bucked Lee as easily as they did Johnston. A situation
                  > > like
                  > > > > > Cassville, where Hood's attitude toward Johnston, his
                  > > > motivations,
                  > > > > > and his actions were questionable, simply would not have
                  > > > happened
                  > > > > > under Lee. Hood, along with pretty much every other
                  > commander
                  > > in
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > Confederacy revered Lee. It's safe to say even a man like
                  > > > Forrest
                  > > > > > probably would not have reacted to Lee the same way he did
                  > to
                  > > > > Bragg
                  > > > > > for several reasons. (The first of which is that Lee always
                  > > > highly
                  > > > > > valued the reports of his cavalry and paid close attention
                  > to
                  > > > > them.
                  > > > > > The second that he was a far more competent operational
                  > > > commander
                  > > > > > than Bragg could ever hope to be, and the third that he was
                  > > > simply
                  > > > > > Robert E. Lee.) Finally men like Cleburne would have been
                  > > given
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > opportunity to either prove themselves as leaders at higher
                  > > > > command
                  > > > > > positions, failed and been moved back to their original
                  > > command,
                  > > > > or
                  > > > > > simply shuffled to another theater as Lee was so adroit at
                  > > > doing.
                  > > > > > (When I look at Cleburne out West I can't help but think of
                  > > John
                  > > > > B.
                  > > > > > Gordon out East. It's hard for me to believe that Clebure
                  > > would
                  > > > > not
                  > > > > > have been, at least temporarily, allowed to try his hand at
                  > a
                  > > > > corps
                  > > > > > command under Lee.)
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 3. THE INHERENT PERSONALITY FLAWS IN THE OTHER COMMANDERS OF
                  > > THE
                  > > > > > AoT: Say what you like about Johnston, Beauregard and Bragg
                  > > but
                  > > > > they
                  > > > > > were simply not as easy to get along with as Lee. Moreover,
                  > > with
                  > > > > > respect to Davis, it has always seemed rather beside the
                  > point
                  > > > to
                  > > > > me
                  > > > > > whether or not Johnston and Beauregard were right about his
                  > > > > > treatment of them. The point is HE, Davis, not them was the
                  > > > > > President of the Confederacy. The president MUST always have
                  > > > > > complete faith in his subordinates and trust their
                  > judgement.
                  > > If
                  > > > > he
                  > > > > > can't, even because of his own personal shortcomings, these
                  > > men
                  > > > > must
                  > > > > > be relieved or else the command will suffer. With Lee, Davis
                  > > > would
                  > > > > > have been able to have complete confidence, for the first
                  > time
                  > > > > since
                  > > > > > Albert Sidney Johnston, in the commander of the AoT. This
                  > > > > doubtless
                  > > > > > would have been a better military arrangement for all
                  > > involved,
                  > > > > and
                  > > > > > elevated the morale of the army. Not only would they like
                  > > their
                  > > > > > commander (as they did Joe Johnston) or the president
                  > support
                  > > > him
                  > > > > > (as he did Bragg), but rather both the army and the
                  > president
                  > > > > would
                  > > > > > both support the commanding general at the same time. A
                  > rather
                  > > > > novel
                  > > > > > notion out west.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 4. LONGSTREET'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE GRAND STRATEGIC PLAN
                  > OUT
                  > > > > EAST:
                  > > > > > Longstreet's idea of remaining on the defensive, and simply
                  > > > > beating
                  > > > > > off Federal attacks would have worked much better in
                  > Virginia
                  > > > than
                  > > > > > it would have in Tenesse or Georgia. Think Fredericksburg.
                  > > (Yes
                  > > > I
                  > > > > > know Lee was the commanding general, but Longstreet's
                  > reading
                  > > of
                  > > > > the
                  > > > > > field and handling of his own troops was masterful here. I
                  > > think
                  > > > > he
                  > > > > > could have done it on a larger scale.) Although Longstreet
                  > was
                  > > > > > undoubtedly better under Lee and this strategy may have had
                  > > its
                  > > > > > difficulties against a federal army under Grant, I don't
                  > think
                  > > > it
                  > > > > > would have worn out the ability of the ANV to take the
                  > > offensive
                  > > > > as
                  > > > > > quickly as Lee did.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > In closing, and given the subsequent history, I don't
                  > believe
                  > > > > Davis
                  > > > > > really had any other viable options. Lee out West, and
                  > > > Longstreet
                  > > > > in
                  > > > > > the East, at least until the elections of 1864, and the hope
                  > > > that
                  > > > > > Lee could have kept Sherman out of Atlanta, would have been
                  > a
                  > > > > > pretty good hand to play.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Sorry if this post was too long, but you know what they say.
                  > > > > Figured
                  > > > > > I'd try to make somewhat of a good first impression.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links







                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Ricky Washburn
                  My idea is a far fetched belief, but i do believe that giving a appropriate command staff, and a small area of command Van Dorn had potential. I am not sure
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    My idea is a far fetched belief, but i do believe
                    that giving a appropriate command staff, and a small
                    area of command Van Dorn had potential. I am not sure
                    what it is, though maybe if he was placed as a corps
                    commander he might have done a decent job, or made use
                    of cavalry as scouts for a regular army...

                    =====

                    .....Eternally.....





                    __________________________________
                    Do you Yahoo!?
                    Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
                    www.yahoo.com
                  • Mark Peters
                    Tom, I think with an increased number of Departments, Davis would have been a fly in the ointment , and made the option unworkable. Forgetting the
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Tom,

                      I think with an increased number of Departments, Davis would have
                      been a 'fly in the ointment', and made the option unworkable.

                      Forgetting the Trans-Missippi, he struggled to find two commanders,
                      at any one time, that he could work with effectively. Would it have
                      been feasable that he could have found three?

                      We also know that Union Generals often bickered over who had control
                      of troops, when they crossed into another sphere of influence. I
                      wonder how the egos of the CSA high-command would have reacted when
                      this happened!

                      Best wishes,

                      Mark

                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                      > I would include central and east Tennessee, Georgia, possibly
                      inland
                      > S.C. but not coastal Georgia. I would have a Coastal Defense as a
                      > separate entity. Having to defend Nashville and the Savannah coast
                      is
                      > just nonsensical. To the West the area could be from Nashville to
                      the
                      > Mississippi River and South to below Vicksburg. Taylor could
                      command the
                      > Tran-Miss area and Texas. The AOT was grossly over extended as A.S.
                      > Johnston rapidly discovered. Drawing a middle or central department
                      > would add more focus to their efforts. Trying to communicate and
                      > coordinate from Knoxville to Vicksburg was not feasible and it just
                      > simply did not work.
                      >
                      > This is just a rough outline of a concept or theory that needs
                      further
                      > discussion. But I think it would have been a viable alternative to
                      what
                      > actually occurred and failed. They had several capable leaders who
                      kept
                      > replacing each other. This program would have put the available
                      talent
                      > into the game together, enhanced communication, provided more
                      structure
                      > and allowed the Department commander to focus on a more
                      centralized set
                      > of problems, tasks and circumstances.
                      > Just a thought...
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: illiniillinois [mailto:illiniillinois@y...]
                      > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 2:18 AM
                      > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                      > commander in the West?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Sorry but I had to reply to this. What would the central deparment
                      > in the West have looked like to you, Tom? Tenesse, Georgia, South
                      > Carolina and North Carolina? This seems like one of the most
                      > intersting ideas to me yet and the more I think on it a darn good
                      > idea. Curious on what you were thinking.
                      >
                      > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                      > > I think the South had three capable leaders after the death of
                      A.S.
                      > > Johnston. R.E. Lee, Joe Johnston and Beauregard. What they had
                      was
                      > a
                      > > horrible road network (to call it a "network" is a compliment)
                      that
                      > > covered a territory that was simply too large for an East, a
                      West
                      > and a
                      > > Southern Mississippi. They needed a third area between Lee and
                      the
                      > West.
                      > > Beauregard could have been left in command of the West and
                      Northern
                      > > Mississippi region and Joe Johnston put in charge of a middle
                      area
                      > > around Knoxville, Chattanooga and Georgia.
                      > > Just a thought and probably a lousy one. But something to
                      consider.
                      > > Don't think about Davis and his prejudices. We know of them.
                      This
                      > is an
                      > > alternative thought of could be done if Davis really wanted to do
                      > > something that would utilized the best available talent.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Mark Peters [mailto:mark.peters14@b...]
                      > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:18 PM
                      > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice
                      for
                      > > commander in the West?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Davis wanted a commission at the beginning of the war, but ended
                      > up
                      > > with the Presidency. He was the one that never got over this,
                      and
                      > > hence his continuous dabblings. That's my opinion, anyway.
                      > >
                      > > However, I don't agree that Beauregard and Johnston were in the
                      > > wrong, because they didn't accept his war record and military
                      > > ambitions. Rather, they were the ones in the field, and should
                      > have
                      > > been given the responsibility to act upon their commissions.
                      > >
                      > > Best wishes,
                      > >
                      > > Mark
                      > >
                      > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
                      > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks for the response mark. Yeah you bring up a good point.
                      I
                      > > > hadn't even thought of Davis' fixation on the East.
                      > > >
                      > > > Also I don't have that big a problem with Beauregard either.
                      > > Granted
                      > > > the man thought he was another Napoleon and he had a fixation
                      > with
                      > > > overly ambitious, grand strategic plans, but once he was
                      brought
                      > > > back down to earth he was able to tailor his plans based
                      > somewhat
                      > > > more on reality. I think First Manassas was a good example of
                      > > this,
                      > > > even though a lot of the credit goes to Joe Johnston for that.
                      > His
                      > > > defense of Petersburg was also much better than he
                      traditionally
                      > > > gets credit for, IMHO.
                      > > >
                      > > > Anyway I know this is a western discussion board, and,
                      > especially
                      > > > being the new guy, I don't mean to stray too much. As for
                      Davis
                      > I
                      > > > couldn't agree more. I think the Confederacy's biggest problem
                      > was
                      > > > his firm belief that because of his previous experience in
                      > Mexico
                      > > > and as Secretary in War he was, in his opinion, almost a de
                      > facto
                      > > > general. I just happen to think that he was the president of
                      the
                      > > > CSA, for better or worse, and Beauregard and Johnston would
                      have
                      > > > been a lot better off, both from a personal and military
                      > > > perspective, if they had swallowed their pride and dealt with
                      > this
                      > > > fact.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Peters"
                      > > > <mark.peters14@b...> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > You highlight several problems.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Firstly, my belief is that Lee refused command in the West.
                      > So,
                      > > > he
                      > > > > wasn't a viable option. Davis, as did Lee, thought the war
                      > > would
                      > > > be
                      > > > > won in the east. There is no way that he would have wanted
                      > his
                      > > > best
                      > > > > commander in the west, on a permanent basis.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Of those willing to serve, as I've stated before, my belief
                      is
                      > > > that
                      > > > > Beauregard was the best option. The fact that Davis
                      > > continuously
                      > > > > meddled in military affairs surely shows that politicians
                      > should
                      > > > > allow their military commanders to get on with it. Because
                      > > Davis
                      > > > > did not get on, at a personal level, with Beauregard or J.
                      > > > Johnston
                      > > > > should not have precluded them from continuous command out
                      > west.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I do agree with you on Cleburne!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Best wishes,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Mark
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
                      > > > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hi everyone, I'm fairly new here. Been lurking for a
                      while,
                      > > and
                      > > > > have
                      > > > > > read most of the posts on who would have been the best
                      > choice
                      > > > with
                      > > > > > respect to the Confederacy for commander in the West. Best
                      > > > option,
                      > > > > > IMHO, Lee.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I know this has been suggested before, and Davis himself
                      > even
                      > > > > > considered it, but rejected it partially because of Lee's
                      > > > > > reluctance. Nevertheless, sending Lee west and placing
                      > > > Longstreet
                      > > > > in
                      > > > > > command in the East, after Chattanooga, probably would
                      have
                      > > been
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > Confederacy's best course of action. There are several
                      major
                      > > > > > positives and negatives in this plan and, if everyone will
                      > > bear
                      > > > > with
                      > > > > > me real quick, I'm gonna try to lay 'em out.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > First the weakness:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 1. LONGSTREET'S LACKLUSTER RECORD AS AN INDEPENDANT
                      > COMMANDER:
                      > > > For
                      > > > > > whatever reason "Pete" had a fairly lackluster record as
                      an
                      > > > > > independant commander. While he admittedly faced several
                      > > > handicaps
                      > > > > > at Knoxville and during his tenure in command of a
                      > department
                      > > in
                      > > > > > southeastern Virginia, such as having to deal with a
                      number
                      > of
                      > > > > > generals Lee had banished there so Marse Robert himself
                      > would
                      > > no
                      > > > > > longer have to worry about them, the record remains
                      > disturbing
                      > > > at
                      > > > > > best. Just how would Longstreet have fared if given
                      complete
                      > > > > control
                      > > > > > of the ANV? There is enough evidence out there to cast
                      some
                      > > > > serious
                      > > > > > doubt on his abilities as an independant commander.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 2. LEE'S OWN RELUCTANCE TO LEAVE THE ANV: Lee was a
                      > Virginian
                      > > by
                      > > > > > birth, by early 1864 he wanted to keep command of the ANV,
                      > > which
                      > > > > he
                      > > > > > had more than earned and proved himself a master at
                      > > commanding.
                      > > > > > Furthermore Lee's reluctance to leave a theater he knew so
                      > > well,
                      > > > > for
                      > > > > > one he knew very little about is a legitimate objection. I
                      > > would
                      > > > > > also add to this Davis' heavy reliance on having Lee
                      nearby,
                      > > not
                      > > > > > only as commander of the ANV, but as a valued friend and
                      > > general
                      > > > > to
                      > > > > > consult with. Nevertheless, given Lee's notion of honor
                      and
                      > > > > devotion
                      > > > > > to duty, there is no doubt in my mind that had Davis
                      > actually
                      > > > > > ordered him out west, he would have went.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 3. THE REACTION OF THE ANV: While there is no doubt that
                      the
                      > > ANV
                      > > > > > dearly loved Longstreet, and held him in high esteem, the
                      > > regard
                      > > > > > they had for him could never compare to that they had for
                      > Lee.
                      > > > > > Understandably no general would ever hold in their hearts
                      > the
                      > > > > place
                      > > > > > that Lee did. Again, nevertheless, if Lee were sent West
                      > after
                      > > > > > Chattanooga, given the circumstances, and the fact that by
                      > > 1864
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > ANV was an actual army in discipline as well as name, I
                      > think
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > change just might have worked.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Now the strenghts:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 1. LEE'S AGRESSIVENESS, COMPETENCE AS A COMMANDER, AND
                      > ABILITY
                      > > > TO
                      > > > > > SEE OPPORTUNITY WHERE OTHERS SAW DISASTER: Lee is exactly
                      > the
                      > > > type
                      > > > > > of commander that was needed in the West. One who always
                      > > > remained
                      > > > > > inherently aggressive, and looked for ways to attack the
                      > enemy
                      > > > > > rather than lamenting the shortcomings he faced. If anyone
                      > > could
                      > > > > > have viewed the Confederate situation out West, after
                      > > > Chattanooga,
                      > > > > > and found a way to counterattack the Union advance it
                      would
                      > > have
                      > > > > > been Lee. Moreover he would have brought a sense of the
                      > > > offensive
                      > > > > > that was often missing in the AoT's commanders (Johnston),
                      > > > > although
                      > > > > > not the AoT itself.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 2. LEE'S PERSONALITY: His unique ability to balance
                      delicate
                      > > and
                      > > > > > often intemperate subordinates. This was a key in the AoT
                      > and
                      > > > one
                      > > > > > that all of its previous commanders, including chiefly
                      Bragg
                      > > and
                      > > > > > Johnston, simply missed. Men like Forrest and even Hood
                      > would
                      > > > not
                      > > > > > have bucked Lee as easily as they did Johnston. A
                      situation
                      > > like
                      > > > > > Cassville, where Hood's attitude toward Johnston, his
                      > > > motivations,
                      > > > > > and his actions were questionable, simply would not have
                      > > > happened
                      > > > > > under Lee. Hood, along with pretty much every other
                      > commander
                      > > in
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > Confederacy revered Lee. It's safe to say even a man like
                      > > > Forrest
                      > > > > > probably would not have reacted to Lee the same way he did
                      > to
                      > > > > Bragg
                      > > > > > for several reasons. (The first of which is that Lee
                      always
                      > > > highly
                      > > > > > valued the reports of his cavalry and paid close attention
                      > to
                      > > > > them.
                      > > > > > The second that he was a far more competent operational
                      > > > commander
                      > > > > > than Bragg could ever hope to be, and the third that he
                      was
                      > > > simply
                      > > > > > Robert E. Lee.) Finally men like Cleburne would have been
                      > > given
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > opportunity to either prove themselves as leaders at
                      higher
                      > > > > command
                      > > > > > positions, failed and been moved back to their original
                      > > command,
                      > > > > or
                      > > > > > simply shuffled to another theater as Lee was so adroit at
                      > > > doing.
                      > > > > > (When I look at Cleburne out West I can't help but think
                      of
                      > > John
                      > > > > B.
                      > > > > > Gordon out East. It's hard for me to believe that Clebure
                      > > would
                      > > > > not
                      > > > > > have been, at least temporarily, allowed to try his hand
                      at
                      > a
                      > > > > corps
                      > > > > > command under Lee.)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 3. THE INHERENT PERSONALITY FLAWS IN THE OTHER COMMANDERS
                      OF
                      > > THE
                      > > > > > AoT: Say what you like about Johnston, Beauregard and
                      Bragg
                      > > but
                      > > > > they
                      > > > > > were simply not as easy to get along with as Lee.
                      Moreover,
                      > > with
                      > > > > > respect to Davis, it has always seemed rather beside the
                      > point
                      > > > to
                      > > > > me
                      > > > > > whether or not Johnston and Beauregard were right about
                      his
                      > > > > > treatment of them. The point is HE, Davis, not them was
                      the
                      > > > > > President of the Confederacy. The president MUST always
                      have
                      > > > > > complete faith in his subordinates and trust their
                      > judgement.
                      > > If
                      > > > > he
                      > > > > > can't, even because of his own personal shortcomings,
                      these
                      > > men
                      > > > > must
                      > > > > > be relieved or else the command will suffer. With Lee,
                      Davis
                      > > > would
                      > > > > > have been able to have complete confidence, for the first
                      > time
                      > > > > since
                      > > > > > Albert Sidney Johnston, in the commander of the AoT. This
                      > > > > doubtless
                      > > > > > would have been a better military arrangement for all
                      > > involved,
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > > elevated the morale of the army. Not only would they like
                      > > their
                      > > > > > commander (as they did Joe Johnston) or the president
                      > support
                      > > > him
                      > > > > > (as he did Bragg), but rather both the army and the
                      > president
                      > > > > would
                      > > > > > both support the commanding general at the same time. A
                      > rather
                      > > > > novel
                      > > > > > notion out west.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 4. LONGSTREET'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE GRAND STRATEGIC PLAN
                      > OUT
                      > > > > EAST:
                      > > > > > Longstreet's idea of remaining on the defensive, and
                      simply
                      > > > > beating
                      > > > > > off Federal attacks would have worked much better in
                      > Virginia
                      > > > than
                      > > > > > it would have in Tenesse or Georgia. Think Fredericksburg.
                      > > (Yes
                      > > > I
                      > > > > > know Lee was the commanding general, but Longstreet's
                      > reading
                      > > of
                      > > > > the
                      > > > > > field and handling of his own troops was masterful here. I
                      > > think
                      > > > > he
                      > > > > > could have done it on a larger scale.) Although Longstreet
                      > was
                      > > > > > undoubtedly better under Lee and this strategy may have
                      had
                      > > its
                      > > > > > difficulties against a federal army under Grant, I don't
                      > think
                      > > > it
                      > > > > > would have worn out the ability of the ANV to take the
                      > > offensive
                      > > > > as
                      > > > > > quickly as Lee did.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > In closing, and given the subsequent history, I don't
                      > believe
                      > > > > Davis
                      > > > > > really had any other viable options. Lee out West, and
                      > > > Longstreet
                      > > > > in
                      > > > > > the East, at least until the elections of 1864, and the
                      hope
                      > > > that
                      > > > > > Lee could have kept Sherman out of Atlanta, would have
                      been
                      > a
                      > > > > > pretty good hand to play.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Sorry if this post was too long, but you know what they
                      say.
                      > > > > Figured
                      > > > > > I'd try to make somewhat of a good first impression.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • William H Keene
                      ... I am a little confused about what you mean. The Confederate force at Shiloh was not called the Army of Tennessee. ... I agree that A.S.J. had too large a
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                        > To a degree. But you have AOT fighting from Perryville to Shiloh from
                        > Chattanooga to Mississippi.

                        I am a little confused about what you mean.
                        The Confederate force at Shiloh was not called the Army of Tennessee.


                        > ... It was simply stretched too thin and the
                        > territorial command responsibilities were clearly lacking of focus. A.S.
                        > Johnston had a huge territory to attempt to control and he found he
                        > could not do attempting to consolidate his efforts at Shiloh. It was too
                        > diverse, too unwieldy.

                        I agree that A.S.J. had too large a geography for too small a force. But it seems to me that
                        this was rectified by late 1862 along the lines of what you suggested. I don't think that
                        ASJ's problem was that his force was unwieldy.


                        > .. So, what you describe did exist but was not
                        > applied as it should have been. Just follow the combat history of Bragg.
                        > From Shiloh to Perryville. Hood from Atlanta to Nashville. No focus.

                        I don't understand the examples. Why is there no focus? Hood was also at Antietam and
                        the Seven Days.

                        -Will
                      • Tom Mix
                        The key it to remember that we are working on theory here. You are correct in that Davis would have messed it up. He has a solid track record of that. what I
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
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                          The key it to remember that we are working on theory here. You are
                          correct in that Davis would have messed it up. He has a solid track
                          record of that. what I am doing is just trying to form an alternative
                          that MAY have worked if given a valid opportunity.
                          I think the talent was available. Joe Johnston, Beauregard, Bragg,
                          Hardee, and Stewart come readily to mind. Cleburne and Cheatham.
                          The Richmond command didn't just think inside the box they reinforced
                          it, put a lid on it and lived there. But if they allowed a little
                          creativity to enter perhaps they could have got beyond the West Point
                          only leadership and seen talent where education was not. A West Point
                          education alone did not make a good general. Forrest did ok. So,
                          venturing outside the practical whelm of history, letting some
                          imagination to enter, I think it might have worked, at least better if
                          not successfully.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Mark Peters [mailto:mark.peters14@...]
                          Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 3:43 PM
                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                          commander in the West?



                          Tom,

                          I think with an increased number of Departments, Davis would have
                          been a 'fly in the ointment', and made the option unworkable.

                          Forgetting the Trans-Missippi, he struggled to find two commanders,
                          at any one time, that he could work with effectively. Would it have
                          been feasable that he could have found three?

                          We also know that Union Generals often bickered over who had control
                          of troops, when they crossed into another sphere of influence. I
                          wonder how the egos of the CSA high-command would have reacted when
                          this happened!

                          Best wishes,

                          Mark

                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                          > I would include central and east Tennessee, Georgia, possibly
                          inland
                          > S.C. but not coastal Georgia. I would have a Coastal Defense as a
                          > separate entity. Having to defend Nashville and the Savannah coast
                          is
                          > just nonsensical. To the West the area could be from Nashville to
                          the
                          > Mississippi River and South to below Vicksburg. Taylor could
                          command the
                          > Tran-Miss area and Texas. The AOT was grossly over extended as A.S.
                          > Johnston rapidly discovered. Drawing a middle or central department
                          > would add more focus to their efforts. Trying to communicate and
                          > coordinate from Knoxville to Vicksburg was not feasible and it just
                          > simply did not work.
                          >
                          > This is just a rough outline of a concept or theory that needs
                          further
                          > discussion. But I think it would have been a viable alternative to
                          what
                          > actually occurred and failed. They had several capable leaders who
                          kept
                          > replacing each other. This program would have put the available
                          talent
                          > into the game together, enhanced communication, provided more
                          structure
                          > and allowed the Department commander to focus on a more
                          centralized set
                          > of problems, tasks and circumstances.
                          > Just a thought...
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: illiniillinois [mailto:illiniillinois@y...]
                          > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 2:18 AM
                          > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                          > commander in the West?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Sorry but I had to reply to this. What would the central deparment
                          > in the West have looked like to you, Tom? Tenesse, Georgia, South
                          > Carolina and North Carolina? This seems like one of the most
                          > intersting ideas to me yet and the more I think on it a darn good
                          > idea. Curious on what you were thinking.
                          >
                          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                          > > I think the South had three capable leaders after the death of
                          A.S.
                          > > Johnston. R.E. Lee, Joe Johnston and Beauregard. What they had
                          was
                          > a
                          > > horrible road network (to call it a "network" is a compliment)
                          that
                          > > covered a territory that was simply too large for an East, a
                          West
                          > and a
                          > > Southern Mississippi. They needed a third area between Lee and
                          the
                          > West.
                          > > Beauregard could have been left in command of the West and
                          Northern
                          > > Mississippi region and Joe Johnston put in charge of a middle
                          area
                          > > around Knoxville, Chattanooga and Georgia.
                          > > Just a thought and probably a lousy one. But something to
                          consider.
                          > > Don't think about Davis and his prejudices. We know of them.
                          This
                          > is an
                          > > alternative thought of could be done if Davis really wanted to do
                          > > something that would utilized the best available talent.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: Mark Peters [mailto:mark.peters14@b...]
                          > > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 9:18 PM
                          > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice
                          for
                          > > commander in the West?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Davis wanted a commission at the beginning of the war, but ended
                          > up
                          > > with the Presidency. He was the one that never got over this,
                          and
                          > > hence his continuous dabblings. That's my opinion, anyway.
                          > >
                          > > However, I don't agree that Beauregard and Johnston were in the
                          > > wrong, because they didn't accept his war record and military
                          > > ambitions. Rather, they were the ones in the field, and should
                          > have
                          > > been given the responsibility to act upon their commissions.
                          > >
                          > > Best wishes,
                          > >
                          > > Mark
                          > >
                          > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
                          > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks for the response mark. Yeah you bring up a good point.
                          I
                          > > > hadn't even thought of Davis' fixation on the East.
                          > > >
                          > > > Also I don't have that big a problem with Beauregard either.
                          > > Granted
                          > > > the man thought he was another Napoleon and he had a fixation
                          > with
                          > > > overly ambitious, grand strategic plans, but once he was
                          brought
                          > > > back down to earth he was able to tailor his plans based
                          > somewhat
                          > > > more on reality. I think First Manassas was a good example of
                          > > this,
                          > > > even though a lot of the credit goes to Joe Johnston for that.
                          > His
                          > > > defense of Petersburg was also much better than he
                          traditionally
                          > > > gets credit for, IMHO.
                          > > >
                          > > > Anyway I know this is a western discussion board, and,
                          > especially
                          > > > being the new guy, I don't mean to stray too much. As for
                          Davis
                          > I
                          > > > couldn't agree more. I think the Confederacy's biggest problem
                          > was
                          > > > his firm belief that because of his previous experience in
                          > Mexico
                          > > > and as Secretary in War he was, in his opinion, almost a de
                          > facto
                          > > > general. I just happen to think that he was the president of
                          the
                          > > > CSA, for better or worse, and Beauregard and Johnston would
                          have
                          > > > been a lot better off, both from a personal and military
                          > > > perspective, if they had swallowed their pride and dealt with
                          > this
                          > > > fact.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Peters"
                          > > > <mark.peters14@b...> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > You highlight several problems.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Firstly, my belief is that Lee refused command in the West.
                          > So,
                          > > > he
                          > > > > wasn't a viable option. Davis, as did Lee, thought the war
                          > > would
                          > > > be
                          > > > > won in the east. There is no way that he would have wanted
                          > his
                          > > > best
                          > > > > commander in the west, on a permanent basis.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Of those willing to serve, as I've stated before, my belief
                          is
                          > > > that
                          > > > > Beauregard was the best option. The fact that Davis
                          > > continuously
                          > > > > meddled in military affairs surely shows that politicians
                          > should
                          > > > > allow their military commanders to get on with it. Because
                          > > Davis
                          > > > > did not get on, at a personal level, with Beauregard or J.
                          > > > Johnston
                          > > > > should not have precluded them from continuous command out
                          > west.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I do agree with you on Cleburne!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Best wishes,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Mark
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "illiniillinois"
                          > > > > <illiniillinois@y...> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Hi everyone, I'm fairly new here. Been lurking for a
                          while,
                          > > and
                          > > > > have
                          > > > > > read most of the posts on who would have been the best
                          > choice
                          > > > with
                          > > > > > respect to the Confederacy for commander in the West. Best
                          > > > option,
                          > > > > > IMHO, Lee.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I know this has been suggested before, and Davis himself
                          > even
                          > > > > > considered it, but rejected it partially because of Lee's
                          > > > > > reluctance. Nevertheless, sending Lee west and placing
                          > > > Longstreet
                          > > > > in
                          > > > > > command in the East, after Chattanooga, probably would
                          have
                          > > been
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > Confederacy's best course of action. There are several
                          major
                          > > > > > positives and negatives in this plan and, if everyone will
                          > > bear
                          > > > > with
                          > > > > > me real quick, I'm gonna try to lay 'em out.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > First the weakness:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 1. LONGSTREET'S LACKLUSTER RECORD AS AN INDEPENDANT
                          > COMMANDER:
                          > > > For
                          > > > > > whatever reason "Pete" had a fairly lackluster record as
                          an
                          > > > > > independant commander. While he admittedly faced several
                          > > > handicaps
                          > > > > > at Knoxville and during his tenure in command of a
                          > department
                          > > in
                          > > > > > southeastern Virginia, such as having to deal with a
                          number
                          > of
                          > > > > > generals Lee had banished there so Marse Robert himself
                          > would
                          > > no
                          > > > > > longer have to worry about them, the record remains
                          > disturbing
                          > > > at
                          > > > > > best. Just how would Longstreet have fared if given
                          complete
                          > > > > control
                          > > > > > of the ANV? There is enough evidence out there to cast
                          some
                          > > > > serious
                          > > > > > doubt on his abilities as an independant commander.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 2. LEE'S OWN RELUCTANCE TO LEAVE THE ANV: Lee was a
                          > Virginian
                          > > by
                          > > > > > birth, by early 1864 he wanted to keep command of the ANV,
                          > > which
                          > > > > he
                          > > > > > had more than earned and proved himself a master at
                          > > commanding.
                          > > > > > Furthermore Lee's reluctance to leave a theater he knew so
                          > > well,
                          > > > > for
                          > > > > > one he knew very little about is a legitimate objection. I
                          > > would
                          > > > > > also add to this Davis' heavy reliance on having Lee
                          nearby,
                          > > not
                          > > > > > only as commander of the ANV, but as a valued friend and
                          > > general
                          > > > > to
                          > > > > > consult with. Nevertheless, given Lee's notion of honor
                          and
                          > > > > devotion
                          > > > > > to duty, there is no doubt in my mind that had Davis
                          > actually
                          > > > > > ordered him out west, he would have went.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 3. THE REACTION OF THE ANV: While there is no doubt that
                          the
                          > > ANV
                          > > > > > dearly loved Longstreet, and held him in high esteem, the
                          > > regard
                          > > > > > they had for him could never compare to that they had for
                          > Lee.
                          > > > > > Understandably no general would ever hold in their hearts
                          > the
                          > > > > place
                          > > > > > that Lee did. Again, nevertheless, if Lee were sent West
                          > after
                          > > > > > Chattanooga, given the circumstances, and the fact that by
                          > > 1864
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > ANV was an actual army in discipline as well as name, I
                          > think
                          > > > the
                          > > > > > change just might have worked.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Now the strenghts:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 1. LEE'S AGRESSIVENESS, COMPETENCE AS A COMMANDER, AND
                          > ABILITY
                          > > > TO
                          > > > > > SEE OPPORTUNITY WHERE OTHERS SAW DISASTER: Lee is exactly
                          > the
                          > > > type
                          > > > > > of commander that was needed in the West. One who always
                          > > > remained
                          > > > > > inherently aggressive, and looked for ways to attack the
                          > enemy
                          > > > > > rather than lamenting the shortcomings he faced. If anyone
                          > > could
                          > > > > > have viewed the Confederate situation out West, after
                          > > > Chattanooga,
                          > > > > > and found a way to counterattack the Union advance it
                          would
                          > > have
                          > > > > > been Lee. Moreover he would have brought a sense of the
                          > > > offensive
                          > > > > > that was often missing in the AoT's commanders (Johnston),
                          > > > > although
                          > > > > > not the AoT itself.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 2. LEE'S PERSONALITY: His unique ability to balance
                          delicate
                          > > and
                          > > > > > often intemperate subordinates. This was a key in the AoT
                          > and
                          > > > one
                          > > > > > that all of its previous commanders, including chiefly
                          Bragg
                          > > and
                          > > > > > Johnston, simply missed. Men like Forrest and even Hood
                          > would
                          > > > not
                          > > > > > have bucked Lee as easily as they did Johnston. A
                          situation
                          > > like
                          > > > > > Cassville, where Hood's attitude toward Johnston, his
                          > > > motivations,
                          > > > > > and his actions were questionable, simply would not have
                          > > > happened
                          > > > > > under Lee. Hood, along with pretty much every other
                          > commander
                          > > in
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > Confederacy revered Lee. It's safe to say even a man like
                          > > > Forrest
                          > > > > > probably would not have reacted to Lee the same way he did
                          > to
                          > > > > Bragg
                          > > > > > for several reasons. (The first of which is that Lee
                          always
                          > > > highly
                          > > > > > valued the reports of his cavalry and paid close attention
                          > to
                          > > > > them.
                          > > > > > The second that he was a far more competent operational
                          > > > commander
                          > > > > > than Bragg could ever hope to be, and the third that he
                          was
                          > > > simply
                          > > > > > Robert E. Lee.) Finally men like Cleburne would have been
                          > > given
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > opportunity to either prove themselves as leaders at
                          higher
                          > > > > command
                          > > > > > positions, failed and been moved back to their original
                          > > command,
                          > > > > or
                          > > > > > simply shuffled to another theater as Lee was so adroit at
                          > > > doing.
                          > > > > > (When I look at Cleburne out West I can't help but think
                          of
                          > > John
                          > > > > B.
                          > > > > > Gordon out East. It's hard for me to believe that Clebure
                          > > would
                          > > > > not
                          > > > > > have been, at least temporarily, allowed to try his hand
                          at
                          > a
                          > > > > corps
                          > > > > > command under Lee.)
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 3. THE INHERENT PERSONALITY FLAWS IN THE OTHER COMMANDERS
                          OF
                          > > THE
                          > > > > > AoT: Say what you like about Johnston, Beauregard and
                          Bragg
                          > > but
                          > > > > they
                          > > > > > were simply not as easy to get along with as Lee.
                          Moreover,
                          > > with
                          > > > > > respect to Davis, it has always seemed rather beside the
                          > point
                          > > > to
                          > > > > me
                          > > > > > whether or not Johnston and Beauregard were right about
                          his
                          > > > > > treatment of them. The point is HE, Davis, not them was
                          the
                          > > > > > President of the Confederacy. The president MUST always
                          have
                          > > > > > complete faith in his subordinates and trust their
                          > judgement.
                          > > If
                          > > > > he
                          > > > > > can't, even because of his own personal shortcomings,
                          these
                          > > men
                          > > > > must
                          > > > > > be relieved or else the command will suffer. With Lee,
                          Davis
                          > > > would
                          > > > > > have been able to have complete confidence, for the first
                          > time
                          > > > > since
                          > > > > > Albert Sidney Johnston, in the commander of the AoT. This
                          > > > > doubtless
                          > > > > > would have been a better military arrangement for all
                          > > involved,
                          > > > > and
                          > > > > > elevated the morale of the army. Not only would they like
                          > > their
                          > > > > > commander (as they did Joe Johnston) or the president
                          > support
                          > > > him
                          > > > > > (as he did Bragg), but rather both the army and the
                          > president
                          > > > > would
                          > > > > > both support the commanding general at the same time. A
                          > rather
                          > > > > novel
                          > > > > > notion out west.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 4. LONGSTREET'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE GRAND STRATEGIC PLAN
                          > OUT
                          > > > > EAST:
                          > > > > > Longstreet's idea of remaining on the defensive, and
                          simply
                          > > > > beating
                          > > > > > off Federal attacks would have worked much better in
                          > Virginia
                          > > > than
                          > > > > > it would have in Tenesse or Georgia. Think Fredericksburg.
                          > > (Yes
                          > > > I
                          > > > > > know Lee was the commanding general, but Longstreet's
                          > reading
                          > > of
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > field and handling of his own troops was masterful here. I
                          > > think
                          > > > > he
                          > > > > > could have done it on a larger scale.) Although Longstreet
                          > was
                          > > > > > undoubtedly better under Lee and this strategy may have
                          had
                          > > its
                          > > > > > difficulties against a federal army under Grant, I don't
                          > think
                          > > > it
                          > > > > > would have worn out the ability of the ANV to take the
                          > > offensive
                          > > > > as
                          > > > > > quickly as Lee did.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > In closing, and given the subsequent history, I don't
                          > believe
                          > > > > Davis
                          > > > > > really had any other viable options. Lee out West, and
                          > > > Longstreet
                          > > > > in
                          > > > > > the East, at least until the elections of 1864, and the
                          hope
                          > > > that
                          > > > > > Lee could have kept Sherman out of Atlanta, would have
                          been
                          > a
                          > > > > > pretty good hand to play.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Sorry if this post was too long, but you know what they
                          say.
                          > > > > Figured
                          > > > > > I'd try to make somewhat of a good first impression.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links







                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • Tom Mix
                          And how miles away is Antietam from the VA peninsula? I would say much closer than from Perryville to Nashville. I am not so much interested in exact titles of
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
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                            And how miles away is Antietam from the VA peninsula? I would say much
                            closer than from Perryville to Nashville.

                            I am not so much interested in exact titles of the armies as I am the
                            theory of territorial command. But just follow Bragg's combat experience
                            he was at Shiloh, Chattanooga and Perryville. That is a huge territory
                            to monitor and command. And I believe it was the same army if not title.

                            What I meant by unwieldy was the territory not the force. He had a good
                            army it just could not do job asked of it over such a vast and difficult
                            terrain. They tried something like in '62 but they didn't give clear
                            concise orders of control nor man power allocations. They seemed to be
                            whipping all over the South trying to put out fires. While accomplishing
                            nothing. A clear line of division, a clear command structure, an
                            organized set army in each department under clear command, working in
                            unison with the other departments as needed would clear up questions
                            like should we be in Chattanooga or Vicksburg. Those would be two
                            separate departments. Again, working on theory. That is all a what if is
                            anyways.

                            You make good valid points though.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: William H Keene [mailto:wh_keene@...]
                            Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 3:51 PM
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                            commander in the West?



                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                            > To a degree. But you have AOT fighting from Perryville to Shiloh from
                            > Chattanooga to Mississippi.

                            I am a little confused about what you mean.
                            The Confederate force at Shiloh was not called the Army of Tennessee.


                            > ... It was simply stretched too thin and the
                            > territorial command responsibilities were clearly lacking of focus.
                            A.S.
                            > Johnston had a huge territory to attempt to control and he found he
                            > could not do attempting to consolidate his efforts at Shiloh. It was
                            too
                            > diverse, too unwieldy.

                            I agree that A.S.J. had too large a geography for too small a force.
                            But it seems to me that
                            this was rectified by late 1862 along the lines of what you suggested.
                            I don't think that
                            ASJ's problem was that his force was unwieldy.


                            > .. So, what you describe did exist but was not
                            > applied as it should have been. Just follow the combat history of
                            Bragg.
                            > From Shiloh to Perryville. Hood from Atlanta to Nashville. No focus.

                            I don't understand the examples. Why is there no focus? Hood was also
                            at Antietam and
                            the Seven Days.

                            -Will








                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Mark Peters
                            Tom, ... I couldn t disagree that the talent was there. Notably Lee, Johnston and Beauregard. But looking at my earlier point about co- operation, between
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
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                              Tom,

                              > I think the talent was available. Joe Johnston, Beauregard, Bragg,
                              > Hardee, and Stewart come readily to mind. Cleburne and Cheatham.
                              > The Richmond command didn't just think inside the box they
                              > reinforced

                              I couldn't disagree that the talent was there. Notably Lee,
                              Johnston and Beauregard. But looking at my earlier point about co-
                              operation, between commanders, it wasn't just an issue with Davis.

                              Lee ensured that his AoNV had the pick of supplies and
                              reinforcements, despite the political protestations from those out
                              west. I do wonder if these persons, let alone Bragg, could have put
                              aside their differences and worked as a team. Of course, an extra
                              Department would have caused additional strain on limited
                              resources. As a result, relationships would have been strained even
                              further than was the reality.

                              As always, best wishes

                              Mark
                            • William H Keene
                              ... So you have Hood going from the Peninsula to Antietam to Gettysburg to Chickamaugua to Knoxville to Atlanta to Nashville. While Bragg goes from Pensacola
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
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                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                > And how miles away is Antietam from the VA peninsula? I would say much
                                > closer than from Perryville to Nashville.

                                So you have Hood going from the Peninsula to Antietam to Gettysburg to Chickamaugua
                                to Knoxville to Atlanta to Nashville. While Bragg goes from Pensacola to Shiloh to
                                Perryville via Chattanooga to Stone's River to Chickamauaga to Chattanooga. So?
                                Sherman went from Bull Run to Shiloh to Vicksburg to Chattanooga to Atlanta to Savannah
                                to the Carolinas. I don't see what this shows about the focus of Departments.


                                > I am not so much interested in exact titles of the armies as I am the
                                > theory of territorial command. But just follow Bragg's combat experience
                                > he was at Shiloh, Chattanooga and Perryville. That is a huge territory
                                > to monitor and command. And I believe it was the same army if not title.

                                The titles changed and so did Bragg's command position. He was in command of the army
                                at Perryville and Chattanooga, he was in command of a Corps at Shiloh.


                                > What I meant by unwieldy was the territory not the force. He had a good
                                > army it just could not do job asked of it over such a vast and difficult
                                > terrain. They tried something like in '62 but they didn't give clear
                                > concise orders of control nor man power allocations. They seemed to be
                                > whipping all over the South trying to put out fires. While accomplishing
                                > nothing. A clear line of division, a clear command structure, an
                                > organized set army in each department under clear command, working in
                                > unison with the other departments as needed would clear up questions
                                > like should we be in Chattanooga or Vicksburg. Those would be two
                                > separate departments.

                                After October 1862, they were. One was Bragg's department, the other was Pemberton's
                                Department. There was a clear division between these two departments, I think the
                                allocations in late 1862 were quite concise. During the middle of 1862 there was much
                                confusion. I think a lot of that was becuas eof the death of ASJ and the loss of much of
                                Tennessee and uncertainty of what to do next. the reorganization in the fall of 1862
                                straightened things out.
                              • Tom Mix
                                You are missing my point all together. If it worked so well, show me the great accomplishments of Pemberton in Tennessee or Alabama or anywhere beyond the
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
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                                  You are missing my point all together.
                                  If it worked so well, show me the great accomplishments of Pemberton in
                                  Tennessee or Alabama or anywhere beyond the outlying areas of Vicksburg.


                                  I tried illustrate that the ANV had a very small territory to cover.
                                  While Bragg was all over the map trying to do his job. He had a vast
                                  territory to cover and it possibly could have been better if done a
                                  better way.

                                  Lets hear your ideas or alternatives to a command structure that failed.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: William H Keene [mailto:wh_keene@...]
                                  Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:27 PM
                                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                                  commander in the West?



                                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                  > And how miles away is Antietam from the VA peninsula? I would say much
                                  > closer than from Perryville to Nashville.

                                  So you have Hood going from the Peninsula to Antietam to Gettysburg to
                                  Chickamaugua
                                  to Knoxville to Atlanta to Nashville. While Bragg goes from Pensacola
                                  to Shiloh to
                                  Perryville via Chattanooga to Stone's River to Chickamauaga to
                                  Chattanooga. So?
                                  Sherman went from Bull Run to Shiloh to Vicksburg to Chattanooga to
                                  Atlanta to Savannah
                                  to the Carolinas. I don't see what this shows about the focus of
                                  Departments.


                                  > I am not so much interested in exact titles of the armies as I am the
                                  > theory of territorial command. But just follow Bragg's combat
                                  experience
                                  > he was at Shiloh, Chattanooga and Perryville. That is a huge territory
                                  > to monitor and command. And I believe it was the same army if not
                                  title.

                                  The titles changed and so did Bragg's command position. He was in
                                  command of the army
                                  at Perryville and Chattanooga, he was in command of a Corps at Shiloh.



                                  > What I meant by unwieldy was the territory not the force. He had a
                                  good
                                  > army it just could not do job asked of it over such a vast and
                                  difficult
                                  > terrain. They tried something like in '62 but they didn't give clear
                                  > concise orders of control nor man power allocations. They seemed to be
                                  > whipping all over the South trying to put out fires. While
                                  accomplishing
                                  > nothing. A clear line of division, a clear command structure, an
                                  > organized set army in each department under clear command, working in
                                  > unison with the other departments as needed would clear up questions
                                  > like should we be in Chattanooga or Vicksburg. Those would be two
                                  > separate departments.

                                  After October 1862, they were. One was Bragg's department, the other
                                  was Pemberton's
                                  Department. There was a clear division between these two departments,
                                  I think the
                                  allocations in late 1862 were quite concise. During the middle of 1862
                                  there was much
                                  confusion. I think a lot of that was becuas eof the death of ASJ and
                                  the loss of much of
                                  Tennessee and uncertainty of what to do next. the reorganization in the
                                  fall of 1862
                                  straightened things out.











                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Tom Mix
                                  Mark, All good points. Lets face it, it was a not a great decision for the South to start a civil war. But they did. We both know they were doomed from the get
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
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                                    Mark,
                                    All good points. Lets face it, it was a not a great decision for the
                                    South to start a civil war. But they did. We both know they were doomed
                                    from the get go. This is just a theory to bounce around with. I doubt if
                                    it would work. But perhaps Georgia, for example, would have been more
                                    willing to send supplies and personal to a more local department rather
                                    than to Richmond or Memphis. Or Alabama to Memphis or Vicksburg instead
                                    of Knoxville, Charlotte or Richmond.
                                    I doubt it, but who knows?
                                    Thanks,
                                    Tom

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Mark Peters [mailto:mark.peters14@...]
                                    Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:23 PM
                                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                                    commander in the West?



                                    Tom,

                                    > I think the talent was available. Joe Johnston, Beauregard, Bragg,
                                    > Hardee, and Stewart come readily to mind. Cleburne and Cheatham.
                                    > The Richmond command didn't just think inside the box they
                                    > reinforced

                                    I couldn't disagree that the talent was there. Notably Lee,
                                    Johnston and Beauregard. But looking at my earlier point about co-
                                    operation, between commanders, it wasn't just an issue with Davis.

                                    Lee ensured that his AoNV had the pick of supplies and
                                    reinforcements, despite the political protestations from those out
                                    west. I do wonder if these persons, let alone Bragg, could have put
                                    aside their differences and worked as a team. Of course, an extra
                                    Department would have caused additional strain on limited
                                    resources. As a result, relationships would have been strained even
                                    further than was the reality.

                                    As always, best wishes

                                    Mark









                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • Tom Mix
                                    Will, I just have to say that I am aware that Bragg did not command the army at Shiloh. Again you missed the point. It was the same army that fought in all
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
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                                      Will,
                                      I just have to say that I am aware that Bragg did not command the army
                                      at Shiloh. Again you missed the point. It was the same army that fought
                                      in all those places you mentioned and Bragg was either in partial or
                                      full command. I could have used Cheatham or Cleburne or a number or
                                      other names just as easy. The point is that it was one army covering way
                                      too much territory. While the Union had Grant toward the west and
                                      Rosecrans, among others, in the center.

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: William H Keene [mailto:wh_keene@...]
                                      Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:27 PM
                                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                                      commander in the West?



                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                      > And how miles away is Antietam from the VA peninsula? I would say much
                                      > closer than from Perryville to Nashville.

                                      So you have Hood going from the Peninsula to Antietam to Gettysburg to
                                      Chickamaugua
                                      to Knoxville to Atlanta to Nashville. While Bragg goes from Pensacola
                                      to Shiloh to
                                      Perryville via Chattanooga to Stone's River to Chickamauaga to
                                      Chattanooga. So?
                                      Sherman went from Bull Run to Shiloh to Vicksburg to Chattanooga to
                                      Atlanta to Savannah
                                      to the Carolinas. I don't see what this shows about the focus of
                                      Departments.


                                      > I am not so much interested in exact titles of the armies as I am the
                                      > theory of territorial command. But just follow Bragg's combat
                                      experience
                                      > he was at Shiloh, Chattanooga and Perryville. That is a huge territory
                                      > to monitor and command. And I believe it was the same army if not
                                      title.

                                      The titles changed and so did Bragg's command position. He was in
                                      command of the army
                                      at Perryville and Chattanooga, he was in command of a Corps at Shiloh.



                                      > What I meant by unwieldy was the territory not the force. He had a
                                      good
                                      > army it just could not do job asked of it over such a vast and
                                      difficult
                                      > terrain. They tried something like in '62 but they didn't give clear
                                      > concise orders of control nor man power allocations. They seemed to be
                                      > whipping all over the South trying to put out fires. While
                                      accomplishing
                                      > nothing. A clear line of division, a clear command structure, an
                                      > organized set army in each department under clear command, working in
                                      > unison with the other departments as needed would clear up questions
                                      > like should we be in Chattanooga or Vicksburg. Those would be two
                                      > separate departments.

                                      After October 1862, they were. One was Bragg's department, the other
                                      was Pemberton's
                                      Department. There was a clear division between these two departments,
                                      I think the
                                      allocations in late 1862 were quite concise. During the middle of 1862
                                      there was much
                                      confusion. I think a lot of that was becuas eof the death of ASJ and
                                      the loss of much of
                                      Tennessee and uncertainty of what to do next. the reorganization in the
                                      fall of 1862
                                      straightened things out.











                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • William H Keene
                                      ... Who said it worked well. My point was just that there was a clear division of Departments as you have theorized about. ... By the time Pemberton took
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
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                                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                        > You are missing my point all together.
                                        > If it worked so well...

                                        Who said it worked well. My point was just that there was a clear division of Departments
                                        as you have theorized about.

                                        > ... , show me the great accomplishments of Pemberton in
                                        > Tennessee or Alabama or anywhere beyond the outlying areas of Vicksburg.

                                        By the time Pemberton took over, western Tennesee was pretty much lost to the
                                        Confederates, so his command was constrained to Mississippi. Northern Alabama was in
                                        Bragg's Department; southern Alabama was in a different Department. Van Dorn's raid of
                                        December 1862 (which was ordered by Pemberton) was a nice accomplishement, but in
                                        gneeral Pemberton's activities were focused around Vicksburg. There was a focus.

                                        > I tried illustrate that the ANV had a very small territory to cover.
                                        > While Bragg was all over the map trying to do his job. He had a vast
                                        > territory to cover and it possibly could have been better if done a
                                        > better way.
                                        >
                                        > Lets hear your ideas or alternatives to a command structure that failed.

                                        I don't think the size of Bragg's Department was a problem. In fact I think Bragg's
                                        command area was well drawn -- northern Georgia, northern Alabama and middle
                                        Tennessee seems like a manageable area. Leadership and resources were a problem.

                                        I do think there was a problem with the extent of Pemberton's Department since he was
                                        tasked with blocking the Mississippi but he had no authority over forces to the west of the
                                        river. I think a department that to some extent straddled the river might have been
                                        better. In fact, I think that at times the problem was too many Departments, not too few.
                                        The Deprtmental divide of the river made cooperation more difficult and during much of
                                        the time, eastern Tennessee was a separate Department.
                                      • William H Keene
                                        ... At the time of Shiloh, the Union had Grant and Buell coming together in one place. Toss in Pope during the move on Corinth and the Union was as
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                          > Will,
                                          > I just have to say that I am aware that Bragg did not command the army
                                          > at Shiloh. Again you missed the point. It was the same army that fought
                                          > in all those places you mentioned and Bragg was either in partial or
                                          > full command. I could have used Cheatham or Cleburne or a number or
                                          > other names just as easy. The point is that it was one army covering way
                                          > too much territory. While the Union had Grant toward the west and
                                          > Rosecrans, among others, in the center.

                                          At the time of Shiloh, the Union had Grant and Buell coming together in one place. Toss in
                                          Pope during the move on Corinth and the Union was as concetrated in a single army as
                                          the Confederates. The Confederates also had Kirby-Smith with a small force covering
                                          East Tennessee, includign Chattanooga, at the time of Shiloh.

                                          Later when the Union had Grant in the western part of Tennessee and Buell in the center,
                                          the Confederates had Bragg and Smith operating together against Buell while Van Dorn
                                          and Price were operating in Mississippi against Grant. Then it was Rosecrans against
                                          Bragg and Grant against Pemberton.

                                          So my point is that there wasn't just this one Confederate army shuttling back and forth.
                                          Multiple armies were formed, split, united, moved, etc.

                                          -Will

                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: William H Keene [mailto:wh_keene@y...]
                                          > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:27 PM
                                          > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                                          > commander in the West?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                          > > And how miles away is Antietam from the VA peninsula? I would say much
                                          > > closer than from Perryville to Nashville.
                                          >
                                          > So you have Hood going from the Peninsula to Antietam to Gettysburg to
                                          > Chickamaugua
                                          > to Knoxville to Atlanta to Nashville. While Bragg goes from Pensacola
                                          > to Shiloh to
                                          > Perryville via Chattanooga to Stone's River to Chickamauaga to
                                          > Chattanooga. So?
                                          > Sherman went from Bull Run to Shiloh to Vicksburg to Chattanooga to
                                          > Atlanta to Savannah
                                          > to the Carolinas. I don't see what this shows about the focus of
                                          > Departments.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > I am not so much interested in exact titles of the armies as I am the
                                          > > theory of territorial command. But just follow Bragg's combat
                                          > experience
                                          > > he was at Shiloh, Chattanooga and Perryville. That is a huge territory
                                          > > to monitor and command. And I believe it was the same army if not
                                          > title.
                                          >
                                          > The titles changed and so did Bragg's command position. He was in
                                          > command of the army
                                          > at Perryville and Chattanooga, he was in command of a Corps at Shiloh.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > What I meant by unwieldy was the territory not the force. He had a
                                          > good
                                          > > army it just could not do job asked of it over such a vast and
                                          > difficult
                                          > > terrain. They tried something like in '62 but they didn't give clear
                                          > > concise orders of control nor man power allocations. They seemed to be
                                          > > whipping all over the South trying to put out fires. While
                                          > accomplishing
                                          > > nothing. A clear line of division, a clear command structure, an
                                          > > organized set army in each department under clear command, working in
                                          > > unison with the other departments as needed would clear up questions
                                          > > like should we be in Chattanooga or Vicksburg. Those would be two
                                          > > separate departments.
                                          >
                                          > After October 1862, they were. One was Bragg's department, the other
                                          > was Pemberton's
                                          > Department. There was a clear division between these two departments,
                                          > I think the
                                          > allocations in late 1862 were quite concise. During the middle of 1862
                                          > there was much
                                          > confusion. I think a lot of that was becuas eof the death of ASJ and
                                          > the loss of much of
                                          > Tennessee and uncertainty of what to do next. the reorganization in the
                                          > fall of 1862
                                          > straightened things out.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        • Tom Mix
                                          Ok. ... From: William H Keene [mailto:wh_keene@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 6:15 PM To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com Subject: [civilwarwest] Re:
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Nov 12, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Ok.

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: William H Keene [mailto:wh_keene@...]
                                            Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 6:15 PM
                                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                                            commander in the West?



                                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                            > Will,
                                            > I just have to say that I am aware that Bragg did not command the army
                                            > at Shiloh. Again you missed the point. It was the same army that
                                            fought
                                            > in all those places you mentioned and Bragg was either in partial or
                                            > full command. I could have used Cheatham or Cleburne or a number or
                                            > other names just as easy. The point is that it was one army covering
                                            way
                                            > too much territory. While the Union had Grant toward the west and
                                            > Rosecrans, among others, in the center.

                                            At the time of Shiloh, the Union had Grant and Buell coming together in
                                            one place. Toss in
                                            Pope during the move on Corinth and the Union was as concetrated in a
                                            single army as
                                            the Confederates. The Confederates also had Kirby-Smith with a small
                                            force covering
                                            East Tennessee, includign Chattanooga, at the time of Shiloh.

                                            Later when the Union had Grant in the western part of Tennessee and
                                            Buell in the center,
                                            the Confederates had Bragg and Smith operating together against Buell
                                            while Van Dorn
                                            and Price were operating in Mississippi against Grant. Then it was
                                            Rosecrans against
                                            Bragg and Grant against Pemberton.

                                            So my point is that there wasn't just this one Confederate army
                                            shuttling back and forth.
                                            Multiple armies were formed, split, united, moved, etc.

                                            -Will

                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: William H Keene [mailto:wh_keene@y...]
                                            > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 4:27 PM
                                            > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Who would have been the best choice for
                                            > commander in the West?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                            > > And how miles away is Antietam from the VA peninsula? I would say
                                            much
                                            > > closer than from Perryville to Nashville.
                                            >
                                            > So you have Hood going from the Peninsula to Antietam to Gettysburg to
                                            > Chickamaugua
                                            > to Knoxville to Atlanta to Nashville. While Bragg goes from Pensacola
                                            > to Shiloh to
                                            > Perryville via Chattanooga to Stone's River to Chickamauaga to
                                            > Chattanooga. So?
                                            > Sherman went from Bull Run to Shiloh to Vicksburg to Chattanooga to
                                            > Atlanta to Savannah
                                            > to the Carolinas. I don't see what this shows about the focus of
                                            > Departments.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > I am not so much interested in exact titles of the armies as I am
                                            the
                                            > > theory of territorial command. But just follow Bragg's combat
                                            > experience
                                            > > he was at Shiloh, Chattanooga and Perryville. That is a huge
                                            territory
                                            > > to monitor and command. And I believe it was the same army if not
                                            > title.
                                            >
                                            > The titles changed and so did Bragg's command position. He was in
                                            > command of the army
                                            > at Perryville and Chattanooga, he was in command of a Corps at Shiloh.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > What I meant by unwieldy was the territory not the force. He had a
                                            > good
                                            > > army it just could not do job asked of it over such a vast and
                                            > difficult
                                            > > terrain. They tried something like in '62 but they didn't give clear
                                            > > concise orders of control nor man power allocations. They seemed to
                                            be
                                            > > whipping all over the South trying to put out fires. While
                                            > accomplishing
                                            > > nothing. A clear line of division, a clear command structure, an
                                            > > organized set army in each department under clear command, working
                                            in
                                            > > unison with the other departments as needed would clear up questions
                                            > > like should we be in Chattanooga or Vicksburg. Those would be two
                                            > > separate departments.
                                            >
                                            > After October 1862, they were. One was Bragg's department, the other
                                            > was Pemberton's
                                            > Department. There was a clear division between these two departments,
                                            > I think the
                                            > allocations in late 1862 were quite concise. During the middle of
                                            1862
                                            > there was much
                                            > confusion. I think a lot of that was becuas eof the death of ASJ and
                                            > the loss of much of
                                            > Tennessee and uncertainty of what to do next. the reorganization in
                                            the
                                            > fall of 1862
                                            > straightened things out.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links







                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
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