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Hall of Fame-- Polk clarification

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  • sdwakefield@prodigy.net
    I had previously posted the following partial observations regarding why I felt Lt. General Polk merited inclusion upon a list of shame-- Also, at the
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 3, 2001
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      I had previously posted the following partial observations regarding
      why I felt Lt. General Polk merited inclusion upon a list of shame--
      "Also, at the begining of the Tullahoma Campaign Folk refused to
      follow Bragg's order to advance from Shelbyville to the north and
      east. If Polk had moved as ordered and with due speed-- it is quite
      possible that as Rosey turned Bragg's right flank and threatened to
      cut off the AoT from its base of supplies, Polks forces might very
      well have returned the favor and turned the Union forces right and
      threatened their suppliy line. I have no idea what the ultimate
      result of this might have been but it makes interesting food for
      throught. Some might argue that these itemns are nit picking and I
      suppose that my lame attempts to add to Mr. White's excellant list
      may be somewhat of a reach".
      In response Tip respectfully had observed as follows--
      "Although the what if's are interesting to a certain extent, and I
      certainly would not be one to defend the "Bishop Polk". Unless I'm
      mistaken on the 23rd of June Rosecrans' initial movement in the
      Tullahoma Campaign was to send the majority of Stanely's i.e.(the
      AOTC's entire cavalry)corps with Granger's reserve corps to front and
      demonstrate on the "Bishop's" front at Shelbyville. This
      demonstration held Polk's corps in check for two days whilst Thomas'
      corps turned Hardee's flank through Hoover's Gap on the 24th. The
      torrent of rain which would hamper both sides in the following days,
      and for that matter the majority of the Tullahoma Campaign was a
      serious obstacle to both sides. This campaign has been talked upon,
      albeit somewhat briefly last December. The whole Tullahoma campaign
      under grueling conditions, IMHO, was a masterpiece for the AOTC. I am
      unfamiliar with Bragg issueing any order for Polk to attack the
      cavalry and infantry divisions of Stanely and Granger respectively.
      In fact, after being completely out-generaled, the AOT did what was
      required for self-preservation. Was this order before the 23rd of
      June? Any later and I fear the weather and McCook's corps, which were
      advancing from the Murfreesboro lines through Liberty Gap, also lay
      in place to check any advance from Shelbyville via Unionville or
      Liberty Gap. Any earlier, do these orders precepitate a general
      engagement with the AOTC on their works at Murfreesboro? Once the
      rains set in, IMHO, any advance by the "Bishop" was doomed to
      flounder in the mud. Cozzen's uses these sources for Polk's counsel
      of retreat on the 28th of June. (Polk, Leonidas Polk, 2:p212-13;
      Horn, Army of Tennesse, P.237) The "Bishop" evidently feared being
      cut off from the Nashville and Chattanooga Railroad, which would have
      the effect of hemming them in, and leaving the Federals free to march
      on Chattanooga. Which, again IMHO, doesn't seem so farfetched."
      I then promised to go back to the books and try and find where I had
      first come up with my initial premise. That promised clarification is
      the purpose of this long over-due post.
      In "Autumn of Glory" Tom Connelly at page 128 wrote- "With the
      absence of news from the right wing [Hardee's front], Bragg on June
      26 was convinced that the main Union army was drawn up in front of
      Liberty Gap. He envisioned a strike similar to that he had planned
      for Polks months before at Bardstown front.That afternoon Bragg
      summoned Polk to his Shelbyville headquarters and ordered him to
      execute the flanking movement though Guy's Gap , striking eastward
      against the force confronting Cleburne at Liberty Gap. Polk's protest
      that the rough topography made this plan unworkable and unheeded. A
      dissatisfied Polk returned to his headquarters in the late afternoon
      and prepared for the attack....{upon receipt of additional
      information later that same night Bragg abandoned his idea and
      ordered both Hardee and Polk to abandon any thoughts of offensive
      actions and to retreat to the South bank of the Duck River.}"

      In short-I was clearly wrong in assigning to Polk a failure to try
      the proposed manever. Although he initially opposed the idea before
      he reasonably could have started the move Bragg reversed himself. As
      Tip's more accurtate post illustrates by June 26th the 'fat was
      pretty well in the fire' for Bragg and his thoughts of an offensive
      were probably about 3 days too late.In addition the fortifications at
      Murfreesboro made a right wheel Confederate strategy problematic
      but who knows ? One strategic factor in the Tullahoma campaign that
      the Confedertae forces apparently were unprepared for and did not
      consider was the possible switch of its line of supply from the
      Chattanooga -Nashville RR to the Nashville- Decatur RR. I am not
      suggesting this would have necessarily have been successful but it
      might have made for an interesting twist. At any rate - this concept
      as well as a the failure to make a counter thrust to the Union army's
      right -- IS NOT a failure that can properly or fairly be laid at
      Bishop Polk's door. Tip correctly has pointed this out to me . I
      apologize to the memory of Polk for my error in assigning this item
      to the long list of his failures. This whole mess clearly needs to
      rest in the Bragg column...
      Regards-
      Wakefield
    • sdwakefield@prodigy.net
      I had previously posted the following partial observations regarding why I felt Lt. General Polk merited inclusion upon a list of shame-- Also, at the
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 3, 2001
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        I had previously posted the following partial observations regarding
        why I felt Lt. General Polk merited inclusion upon a list of shame--
        "Also, at the begining of the Tullahoma Campaign Folk refused to
        follow Bragg's order to advance from Shelbyville to the north and
        east. If Polk had moved as ordered and with due speed-- it is quite
        possible that as Rosey turned Bragg's right flank and threatened to
        cut off the AoT from its base of supplies, Polks forces might very
        well have returned the favor and turned the Union forces right and
        threatened their suppliy line. I have no idea what the ultimate
        result of this might have been but it makes interesting food for
        throught. Some might argue that these itemns are nit picking and I
        suppose that my lame attempts to add to Mr. White's excellant list
        may be somewhat of a reach".
        In response Tip respectfully had observed as follows--
        "Although the what if's are interesting to a certain extent, and I
        certainly would not be one to defend the "Bishop Polk". Unless I'm
        mistaken on the 23rd of June Rosecrans' initial movement in the
        Tullahoma Campaign was to send the majority of Stanely's i.e.(the
        AOTC's entire cavalry)corps with Granger's reserve corps to front and
        demonstrate on the "Bishop's" front at Shelbyville. This
        demonstration held Polk's corps in check for two days whilst Thomas'
        corps turned Hardee's flank through Hoover's Gap on the 24th. The
        torrent of rain which would hamper both sides in the following days,
        and for that matter the majority of the Tullahoma Campaign was a
        serious obstacle to both sides. This campaign has been talked upon,
        albeit somewhat briefly last December. The whole Tullahoma campaign
        under grueling conditions, IMHO, was a masterpiece for the AOTC. I am
        unfamiliar with Bragg issueing any order for Polk to attack the
        cavalry and infantry divisions of Stanely and Granger respectively.
        In fact, after being completely out-generaled, the AOT did what was
        required for self-preservation. Was this order before the 23rd of
        June? Any later and I fear the weather and McCook's corps, which were
        advancing from the Murfreesboro lines through Liberty Gap, also lay
        in place to check any advance from Shelbyville via Unionville or
        Liberty Gap. Any earlier, do these orders precepitate a general
        engagement with the AOTC on their works at Murfreesboro? Once the
        rains set in, IMHO, any advance by the "Bishop" was doomed to
        flounder in the mud. Cozzen's uses these sources for Polk's counsel
        of retreat on the 28th of June. (Polk, Leonidas Polk, 2:p212-13;
        Horn, Army of Tennesse, P.237) The "Bishop" evidently feared being
        cut off from the Nashville and Chattanooga Railroad, which would have
        the effect of hemming them in, and leaving the Federals free to march
        on Chattanooga. Which, again IMHO, doesn't seem so farfetched."
        I then promised to go back to the books and try and find where I had
        first come up with my initial premise. That promised clarification is
        the purpose of this long over-due post.
        In "Autumn of Glory" Tom Connelly at page 128 wrote- "With the
        absence of news from the right wing [Hardee's front], Bragg on June
        26 was convinced that the main Union army was drawn up in front of
        Liberty Gap. He envisioned a strike similar to that he had planned
        for Polks months before at Bardstown front.That afternoon Bragg
        summoned Polk to his Shelbyville headquarters and ordered him to
        execute the flanking movement though Guy's Gap , striking eastward
        against the force confronting Cleburne at Liberty Gap. Polk's protest
        that the rough topography made this plan unworkable and unheeded. A
        dissatisfied Polk returned to his headquarters in the late afternoon
        and prepared for the attack....{upon receipt of additional
        information later that same night Bragg abandoned his idea and
        ordered both Hardee and Polk to abandon any thoughts of offensive
        actions and to retreat to the South bank of the Duck River.}"

        In short-I was clearly wrong in assigning to Polk a failure to try
        the proposed manever. Although he initially opposed the idea before
        he reasonably could have started the move Bragg reversed himself. As
        Tip's more accurtate post illustrates by June 26th the 'fat was
        pretty well in the fire' for Bragg and his thoughts of an offensive
        were probably about 3 days too late.In addition the fortifications at
        Murfreesboro made a right wheel Confederate strategy problematic
        but who knows ? One strategic factor in the Tullahoma campaign that
        the Confedertae forces apparently were unprepared for and did not
        consider was the possible switch of its line of supply from the
        Chattanooga -Nashville RR to the Nashville- Decatur RR. I am not
        suggesting this would have necessarily have been successful but it
        might have made for an interesting twist. At any rate - this concept
        as well as a the failure to make a counter thrust to the Union army's
        right -- IS NOT a failure that can properly or fairly be laid at
        Bishop Polk's door. Tip correctly has pointed this out to me . I
        apologize to the memory of Polk for my error in assigning this item
        to the long list of his failures. This whole mess clearly needs to
        rest in the Bragg column...
        Regards-
        Wakefield
      • LWhite64@aol.com
        Well not all in the Bragg column, Wheeler absolutely failed as a Cav commander in this one, haveing absolutely no idea of where the main Federal threat was,
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 4, 2001
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          Well not all in the Bragg column, Wheeler absolutely failed as a Cav
          commander in this one, haveing absolutely no idea of where the main Federal
          threat was, and in essence leaveing Bragg blind as a bat as to the true
          position of Rosey's army.  As to Polk, his actions are still not vendicated
          in this situation as he immediately objected to the movement on less than
          solid reasons, "the character of the country, the heavy cedar growth, and the
          peculiar topography".  The plan would have put Polk on McCook's flank and
          rear with Hardee in their front and if McCook had not received orders to
          begin pulling out and moveing over to Thomas could have entrapped McCook's
          Corps, but then things changed, and thus leading to Bragg canceling the
          movement.  The criticism  for Polk comes with him objecting to an order from
          Bragg that at the time had potential to work, but as so often with Polk, he
          didnt want to do what he was told.

          Lee
        • LWhite64@aol.com
          Well not all in the Bragg column, Wheeler absolutely failed as a Cav commander in this one, haveing absolutely no idea of where the main Federal threat was,
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 4, 2001
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            Well not all in the Bragg column, Wheeler absolutely failed as a Cav
            commander in this one, haveing absolutely no idea of where the main Federal
            threat was, and in essence leaveing Bragg blind as a bat as to the true
            position of Rosey's army.  As to Polk, his actions are still not vendicated
            in this situation as he immediately objected to the movement on less than
            solid reasons, "the character of the country, the heavy cedar growth, and the
            peculiar topography".  The plan would have put Polk on McCook's flank and
            rear with Hardee in their front and if McCook had not received orders to
            begin pulling out and moveing over to Thomas could have entrapped McCook's
            Corps, but then things changed, and thus leading to Bragg canceling the
            movement.  The criticism  for Polk comes with him objecting to an order from
            Bragg that at the time had potential to work, but as so often with Polk, he
            didnt want to do what he was told.

            Lee
          • tip87th@msn.com
            Thanks Steve for getting back to me on it. I ll definetly put Connelly s book on the purchase and/or checkout list. Thank you too Lee for your incites.
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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              Thanks Steve for getting back to me on it. I'll definetly put
              Connelly's book on the purchase and/or checkout list.

              Thank you too Lee for your incites.

              Repectfully,
              Tip
            • tip87th@msn.com
              Thanks Steve for getting back to me on it. I ll definetly put Connelly s book on the purchase and/or checkout list. Thank you too Lee for your incites.
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                Thanks Steve for getting back to me on it. I'll definetly put
                Connelly's book on the purchase and/or checkout list.

                Thank you too Lee for your incites.

                Repectfully,
                Tip
              • tip87th@msn.com
                Thanks Steve for getting back to me on it. I ll definetly put Connelly s book on the purchase and/or checkout list. Thank you too Lee for your incites.
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                  Thanks Steve for getting back to me on it. I'll definetly put
                  Connelly's book on the purchase and/or checkout list.

                  Thank you too Lee for your incites.

                  Repectfully,
                  Tip


                  I was expired while sending this so forgive me if this comes out
                  twice.
                • tip87th@msn.com
                  Thanks Steve for getting back to me on it. I ll definetly put Connelly s book on the purchase and/or checkout list. Thank you too Lee for your incites.
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                    Thanks Steve for getting back to me on it. I'll definetly put
                    Connelly's book on the purchase and/or checkout list.

                    Thank you too Lee for your incites.

                    Repectfully,
                    Tip


                    I was expired while sending this so forgive me if this comes out
                    twice.
                  • josepharose@yahoo.com
                    Tip, My dearest condolences on your recent expiration. You do sound as if your are, as Monty Python would have it, getting better. On
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                      Tip,

                      My dearest condolences on your recent expiration. You do sound as if
                      your are, as Monty Python would have it, "getting better."

                      On civilwarinteractive.com, Patrick Cleburne has been voted tenth best
                      Civil War leader. I am glad to see that he made it into the top ten.
                      Maybe he should have been higher, but as he wasn't promoted as
                      quickly as he undoubtedly deserved, his holding smaller commands
                      probably worked against him in the voting.

                      Repectfully,
                      Joseph
                    • josepharose@yahoo.com
                      Tip, My dearest condolences on your recent expiration. You do sound as if your are, as Monty Python would have it, getting better. On
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                        Tip,

                        My dearest condolences on your recent expiration. You do sound as if
                        your are, as Monty Python would have it, "getting better."

                        On civilwarinteractive.com, Patrick Cleburne has been voted tenth best
                        Civil War leader. I am glad to see that he made it into the top ten.
                        Maybe he should have been higher, but as he wasn't promoted as
                        quickly as he undoubtedly deserved, his holding smaller commands
                        probably worked against him in the voting.

                        Repectfully,
                        Joseph
                      • LWhite64@aol.com
                        Tip, Connely s two books are must reading for anyone interested in the AOT, however you should also look into Stephen Woodworth s Jefferson Davis and his
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                          Tip,
                                Connely's two books are must reading for anyone interested in the AOT,
                          however you should also look into Stephen Woodworth's Jefferson Davis and his
                          Generals, Failure of Command in the West to balance it out, as the late Mr
                          Connely had a very anti Bragg, Pro Johnston bias, while Woodworth has the
                          opposite.  The truth lies somewhere in between.  

                          Lee
                        • LWhite64@aol.com
                          Tip, Connely s two books are must reading for anyone interested in the AOT, however you should also look into Stephen Woodworth s Jefferson Davis and his
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                            Tip,
                                  Connely's two books are must reading for anyone interested in the AOT,
                            however you should also look into Stephen Woodworth's Jefferson Davis and his
                            Generals, Failure of Command in the West to balance it out, as the late Mr
                            Connely had a very anti Bragg, Pro Johnston bias, while Woodworth has the
                            opposite.  The truth lies somewhere in between.  

                            Lee
                          • LWhite64@aol.com
                            Actually it is probably because he served in the West, bets are that only NB Forrest will be the only other Western Confederate on the list. Lee
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                              Actually it is probably because he served in the West, bets are that only NB
                              Forrest will be the only other Western Confederate on the list.

                              Lee
                            • LWhite64@aol.com
                              Actually it is probably because he served in the West, bets are that only NB Forrest will be the only other Western Confederate on the list. Lee
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                                Actually it is probably because he served in the West, bets are that only NB
                                Forrest will be the only other Western Confederate on the list.

                                Lee
                              • lilsteve68@aol.com
                                Not Here.. He got Vote In fact My Vote is On the Listing s of what people said about him ; ) Steven
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                                  Not Here.. He got Vote In fact My Vote is On the  Listing s of what people  
                                  said about him ; )   Steven
                                • lilsteve68@aol.com
                                  Not Here.. He got Vote In fact My Vote is On the Listing s of what people said about him ; ) Steven
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 5, 2001
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                                    Not Here.. He got Vote In fact My Vote is On the  Listing s of what people  
                                    said about him ; )   Steven
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