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Re: [civilwarwest] Re: McMurry Review Citation

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  • R.W. (Bob) Taubman
    You are quite welcome. I enjoy the exercise. Being a retired police officer/systems analyst, I enjoy the online sleuthing . I think we agree that had the
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 28 12:25 PM
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      You are quite welcome. I enjoy the exercise. Being a retired police
      officer/systems analyst, I enjoy the online "sleuthing".

      I think we agree that had the proper citations and and credits been given,
      there wouldn't have been a problem with the book. I have it on my shelf and
      it shall remain there with the proper cautions. It is unfortunate that a
      book that may be historically correct is now of questionable value due to
      the plagiarism issue.



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "aot1952" <aot1952@...>
      To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:05 PM
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: McMurry Review Citation


      > -Mr. Taubman-
      > Thank you for going to the trouble of finding and posting the
      > article.
      > By profession I am a lawyer and the art of writing briefs and memos
      > is founded upon liberally 'stealing' large portions of other
      > people's successful writings and form type documents. Because of
      > this discipline of cutting and pasting in my work life I have always
      > been very hesitant to try and write much serious history for fear I
      > would likely unintentionally run afoul of plagarism. This article
      > convinces me that I should not be so concerned. It looks to me that
      > McDonough actions here were not just sloppy and not even a lazy 'cut
      > and paste' job but a real studied effort to mask someone else's work
      > as his own.
      > To be honest I am kind of surprised that McDonough remains employeed
      > at a major University (I think he is still at Auburn but I sure
      > could be wrong).
      > Thanks again, very eye opening.
      > Wakefield
      >
      >
      >
      > -- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "R.W. \(Bob\) Taubman"
      > <rtaubman@r...> wrote:
      > > http://www.fit.edu/current/plagiarism.pdf
      > >
      > > While the entire article is not contained in the paper on
      > plagiarism, it
      > > does show (some of) the offending text and the text of McMurry's
      > paper.
      > > Page 11 of the above .pdf file. I don't know if this is the only
      > text in
      > > question.
      > >
      > > "When Professor Richard M. McMurry was asked to review the book
      > War So
      > > Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta by James Lee McDonough and James
      > Pickett Jones
      > > (since withdrawn), McMurry discovered much of the book had
      > been "pilfered"
      > > from his own doctoral dissertation. This example from War So
      > Terrible,
      > > reproduced in McMurry's review, is an excellent example of improper
      > > paraphrasing and structural paraphrase plagiarism.14 "
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Bill Brown" <william.h.brown@n...>
      > > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 11:31 AM
      > > Subject: [civilwarwest] McMurry Review Citation
      > >
      > >
      > > > > Concerning "War So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta" -- James Lee
      > McDonough
      > > &
      > > > > James Pickett Jones -- Wakefield et al. are absolutely
      > correct; the book
      > > > is
      > > > > poison. So much of it was plagiarized, so baldly, that when
      > all the
      > > > stolen
      > > > > words are swept away (as Richard McMurry remarked in a crisp
      > review in
      > > > "The
      > > > > Journal of Southern History" ), "one is left with a shallow,
      > > error-riddled
      > > > > essay in which McDonough and Jones argue their thesis: William
      > Sherman
      > > was
      > > > a
      > > > > better general than his Confederate counterparts. This fact
      > has been
      > > > > obvious for 125 years...."
      > > >
      > > > What is the citation for McMurry's review in the Journal of
      > Southern
      > > > History? I would like to get a copy of the review to put in my
      > copy of
      > > "War
      > > > So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta."
      > > >
      > > > Thanks,
      > > > Bill
      > > >
      > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > > > "There are no bad regiments, there are only bad officers."
      > > > Field Marshall Lord William (Bill) Slim
      > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      > > > William H. (Bill) Brown
      > > > Editor II, Governors' Documentaries
      > > > william.h.brown@n...
      > > > Historical Publications Section (Office of Archives and History)
      > > > http://www.ncpublications.com/
      > > >
      > *********************************************************************
      > *****
      > > > "Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy
      > of my
      > > > agency &
      > > > E-Mail to and from me, in connection with the transaction of
      > public
      > > > business,
      > > > is subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be
      > disclosed
      > > to
      > > > third parties."
      > > >
      > *********************************************************************
      > ***
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • SDE80@aol.com
      In a message dated 4/28/2004 2:28:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... After. And he has a new book on the Battle of Nashville coming out in the Fall.
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 28 2:10 PM
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        In a message dated 4/28/2004 2:28:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, heidimarc@... writes:

        What of McDonough's other titles, like Shiloh, In Hell Before Night
        Fall, or the one's he did on Franklin and Chattanooga?  Do they also
        suffer the same problems as the Atlanta book.  And was the Atlanta
        book written before or after these other titles?


        After.  And he has a new book on the Battle of Nashville coming out in the Fall. 

        Incidentally, he and James Pickett Jones were co-authors of War So Terrible.  I don't know who McMurry considers the plagerizer to be.

        Sam Elliott
      • Dave Smith
        I ll try to address both Will and Marc here. The McDonough Atlanta book was, to the best of my knowledge, McDonough s first. I do not believe that the
        Message 3 of 14 , May 5, 2004
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          I'll try to address both Will and Marc here.

          The McDonough Atlanta book was, to the best of my knowledge,
          McDonough's first. I do not believe that the plagiarism problems
          persist in his other books.

          I'm absolutely *not* a McDonough fan; I agree with Will that his
          research is sloppy, and later works employ the "Historian John Doe
          suggests that ..." as his interpretation of events, decisions, etc.
          I'm not interested in seeing what others have said; if interested,
          I'll read their works.

          But McDonough was an early writer (80s and early 90s) of western
          battles, before Cozzens came along.

          Dave

          Dave Smith
          Villa Hills, Ky

          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene"
          <wh_keene@y...> wrote:
          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Grad" <heidimarc@m...>
          wrote:
          > > What of McDonough's other titles, like Shiloh, In Hell Before
          Night
          > > Fall, or the one's he did on Franklin and Chattanooga? Do they
          also
          > > suffer the same problems as the Atlanta book. And was the
          Atlanta
          > > book written before or after these other titles?
          >
          > Don't know about pagairism, but in my opinion his book on
          Chattanooga shows sloppy
          > research.
        • Dave Smith
          I m not sure who McMurry considers to be the plagiarizer, but it s a pretty clear indication of problems with co-authors, even if responsibilities are clearly
          Message 4 of 14 , May 5, 2004
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            I'm not sure who McMurry considers to be the plagiarizer, but it's a
            pretty clear indication of problems with co-authors, even if
            responsibilities are clearly delineated.

            I'd think the standard response would be that they were both
            plagiarizers.

            Dave

            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, SDE80@a... wrote:
            > In a message dated 4/28/2004 2:28:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
            > heidimarc@m... writes:
            >
            > > What of McDonough's other titles, like Shiloh, In Hell Before
            Night
            > > Fall, or the one's he did on Franklin and Chattanooga? Do they
            also
            > > suffer the same problems as the Atlanta book. And was the
            Atlanta
            > > book written before or after these other titles?
            > >
            >
            > After. And he has a new book on the Battle of Nashville coming out
            in the
            > Fall.
            >
            > Incidentally, he and James Pickett Jones were co-authors of War So
            Terrible.
            > I don't know who McMurry considers the plagerizer to be.
            >
            > Sam Elliott
          • Dave Smith
            ... The problem, of course, is that if plagiarized, it adds no new thought to what has been originally written - whether available to us in written form or
            Message 5 of 14 , May 5, 2004
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              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "R.W. \(Bob\) Taubman"
              <rtaubman@r...> wrote:
              > You are quite welcome. I enjoy the exercise. Being a retired police
              > officer/systems analyst, I enjoy the online "sleuthing".
              >
              > I think we agree that had the proper citations and and credits been
              > given, there wouldn't have been a problem with the book. I have it
              > on my shelf and it shall remain there with the proper cautions. It
              > is unfortunate that a book that may be historically correct is now
              > of questionable value due to the plagiarism issue.

              The problem, of course, is that if plagiarized, it adds no new
              thought to what has been originally written - whether available to us
              in written form or not.

              McMurry was historically correct; the McDonough book added nothing
              (at least insofar as the plagiarized parts go).

              Dave

              Dave Smith
              Villa Hills, KY
            • Jfepperson@aol.com
              ... I owned his Shiloh book long before the Atlanta one came out. The Atlanta book has a 1991 publication date (I *think*) and Amazon indicates the Shiloh
              Message 6 of 14 , May 5, 2004
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                In a message dated 5/5/2004 1:01:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dmsmith001@... writes:

                > The McDonough Atlanta book was, to the best of my
                > knowledge, McDonough's first.

                I owned his Shiloh book long before the Atlanta one
                came out. The Atlanta book has a 1991 publication
                date (I *think*) and Amazon indicates the Shiloh book
                was published in 1983.

                I think his work is very superficial. Most of us could
                do as well.

                I do recall, before I learned of the plagerism issue,
                seeing folks refer to Castel's book as the *first*
                book-length treatment of the campaign, and wondering
                why the McDonough-Jones book was being ignored.

                JFE
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