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McMurry Review Citation

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  • Bill Brown
    ... is ... stolen ... The ... a ... What is the citation for McMurry s review in the Journal of Southern History? I would like to get a copy of the review to
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 28, 2004
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      > Concerning "War So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta" -- James Lee McDonough &
      > James Pickett Jones -- Wakefield et al. are absolutely correct; the book
      is
      > poison. So much of it was plagiarized, so baldly, that when all the
      stolen
      > words are swept away (as Richard McMurry remarked in a crisp review in
      "The
      > Journal of Southern History" ), "one is left with a shallow, error-riddled
      > essay in which McDonough and Jones argue their thesis: William Sherman was
      a
      > better general than his Confederate counterparts. This fact has been
      > obvious for 125 years...."

      What is the citation for McMurry's review in the Journal of Southern
      History? I would like to get a copy of the review to put in my copy of "War
      So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta."

      Thanks,
      Bill

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      "There are no bad regiments, there are only bad officers."
      Field Marshall Lord William (Bill) Slim
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      William H. (Bill) Brown
      Editor II, Governors' Documentaries
      william.h.brown@...
      Historical Publications Section (Office of Archives and History)
      http://www.ncpublications.com/
      **************************************************************************
      "Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my
      agency &
      E-Mail to and from me, in connection with the transaction of public
      business,
      is subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to
      third parties."
      ************************************************************************
    • Jfepperson@aol.com
      McMurry s review is in the May, 1989, issue. JFE
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 28, 2004
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        McMurry's review is in the May, 1989, issue.

        JFE
      • Dave Smith
        As I understand the situation, it was a master s or doctoral thesis that was plagiarized in the book. For some reason, I want to think that it was McMurry s
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 28, 2004
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          As I understand the situation, it was a master's or doctoral thesis
          that was plagiarized in the book. For some reason, I want to think
          that it was McMurry's masters thesis, but I could be wrong.

          Dave

          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Brown"
          <william.h.brown@n...> wrote:
          > > Concerning "War So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta" -- James Lee
          McDonough &
          > > James Pickett Jones -- Wakefield et al. are absolutely correct;
          the book
          > is
          > > poison. So much of it was plagiarized, so baldly, that when all
          the
          > stolen
          > > words are swept away (as Richard McMurry remarked in a crisp
          review in
          > "The
          > > Journal of Southern History" ), "one is left with a shallow,
          error-riddled
          > > essay in which McDonough and Jones argue their thesis: William
          Sherman was
          > a
          > > better general than his Confederate counterparts. This fact has
          been
          > > obvious for 125 years...."
          >
          > What is the citation for McMurry's review in the Journal of Southern
          > History? I would like to get a copy of the review to put in my copy
          of "War
          > So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta."
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Bill
          >
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > "There are no bad regiments, there are only bad officers."
          > Field Marshall Lord William (Bill) Slim
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > William H. (Bill) Brown
          > Editor II, Governors' Documentaries
          > william.h.brown@n...
          > Historical Publications Section (Office of Archives and History)
          > http://www.ncpublications.com/
          >
          **********************************************************************
          ****
          > "Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of
          my
          > agency &
          > E-Mail to and from me, in connection with the transaction of public
          > business,
          > is subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be
          disclosed to
          > third parties."
          >
          **********************************************************************
          **
        • R.W. (Bob) Taubman
          http://www.fit.edu/current/plagiarism.pdf While the entire article is not contained in the paper on plagiarism, it does show (some of) the offending text and
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 28, 2004
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            http://www.fit.edu/current/plagiarism.pdf

            While the entire article is not contained in the paper on plagiarism, it
            does show (some of) the offending text and the text of McMurry's paper.
            Page 11 of the above .pdf file. I don't know if this is the only text in
            question.

            "When Professor Richard M. McMurry was asked to review the book War So
            Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta by James Lee McDonough and James Pickett Jones
            (since withdrawn), McMurry discovered much of the book had been "pilfered"
            from his own doctoral dissertation. This example from War So Terrible,
            reproduced in McMurry's review, is an excellent example of improper
            paraphrasing and structural paraphrase plagiarism.14 "






            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Bill Brown" <william.h.brown@...>
            To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 11:31 AM
            Subject: [civilwarwest] McMurry Review Citation


            > > Concerning "War So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta" -- James Lee McDonough
            &
            > > James Pickett Jones -- Wakefield et al. are absolutely correct; the book
            > is
            > > poison. So much of it was plagiarized, so baldly, that when all the
            > stolen
            > > words are swept away (as Richard McMurry remarked in a crisp review in
            > "The
            > > Journal of Southern History" ), "one is left with a shallow,
            error-riddled
            > > essay in which McDonough and Jones argue their thesis: William Sherman
            was
            > a
            > > better general than his Confederate counterparts. This fact has been
            > > obvious for 125 years...."
            >
            > What is the citation for McMurry's review in the Journal of Southern
            > History? I would like to get a copy of the review to put in my copy of
            "War
            > So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta."
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Bill
            >
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > "There are no bad regiments, there are only bad officers."
            > Field Marshall Lord William (Bill) Slim
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > William H. (Bill) Brown
            > Editor II, Governors' Documentaries
            > william.h.brown@...
            > Historical Publications Section (Office of Archives and History)
            > http://www.ncpublications.com/
            > **************************************************************************
            > "Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my
            > agency &
            > E-Mail to and from me, in connection with the transaction of public
            > business,
            > is subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed
            to
            > third parties."
            > ************************************************************************
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • SDE80@aol.com
            In a message dated 4/28/2004 11:51:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... McMurry wrote (I think it was a dissertation) on the campaign from Dec. 23, 1863 (JEJ s
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 28, 2004
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              In a message dated 4/28/2004 11:51:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dmsmith001@... writes:

              As I understand the situation, it was a master's or doctoral thesis
              that was plagiarized in the book.  For some reason, I want to think
              that it was McMurry's masters thesis, but I could be wrong.


              McMurry wrote (I think it was a dissertation) on the campaign from Dec. 23, 1863 (JEJ's assumption of command) to the relief of Johnston on July 18, 1864.   A man named Errol Claus wrote one on the campaign from July 18, 1864 to the fall of the city on Sept. 2, 1864.  I don't know if the alleged plagerism involved just one or both of these dissertations.  

              Sam
            • aot1952
              -Mr. Taubman- Thank you for going to the trouble of finding and posting the article. By profession I am a lawyer and the art of writing briefs and memos is
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 28, 2004
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                -Mr. Taubman-
                Thank you for going to the trouble of finding and posting the
                article.
                By profession I am a lawyer and the art of writing briefs and memos
                is founded upon liberally 'stealing' large portions of other
                people's successful writings and form type documents. Because of
                this discipline of cutting and pasting in my work life I have always
                been very hesitant to try and write much serious history for fear I
                would likely unintentionally run afoul of plagarism. This article
                convinces me that I should not be so concerned. It looks to me that
                McDonough actions here were not just sloppy and not even a lazy 'cut
                and paste' job but a real studied effort to mask someone else's work
                as his own.
                To be honest I am kind of surprised that McDonough remains employeed
                at a major University (I think he is still at Auburn but I sure
                could be wrong).
                Thanks again, very eye opening.
                Wakefield



                -- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "R.W. \(Bob\) Taubman"
                <rtaubman@r...> wrote:
                > http://www.fit.edu/current/plagiarism.pdf
                >
                > While the entire article is not contained in the paper on
                plagiarism, it
                > does show (some of) the offending text and the text of McMurry's
                paper.
                > Page 11 of the above .pdf file. I don't know if this is the only
                text in
                > question.
                >
                > "When Professor Richard M. McMurry was asked to review the book
                War So
                > Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta by James Lee McDonough and James
                Pickett Jones
                > (since withdrawn), McMurry discovered much of the book had
                been "pilfered"
                > from his own doctoral dissertation. This example from War So
                Terrible,
                > reproduced in McMurry's review, is an excellent example of improper
                > paraphrasing and structural paraphrase plagiarism.14 "
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Bill Brown" <william.h.brown@n...>
                > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 11:31 AM
                > Subject: [civilwarwest] McMurry Review Citation
                >
                >
                > > > Concerning "War So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta" -- James Lee
                McDonough
                > &
                > > > James Pickett Jones -- Wakefield et al. are absolutely
                correct; the book
                > > is
                > > > poison. So much of it was plagiarized, so baldly, that when
                all the
                > > stolen
                > > > words are swept away (as Richard McMurry remarked in a crisp
                review in
                > > "The
                > > > Journal of Southern History" ), "one is left with a shallow,
                > error-riddled
                > > > essay in which McDonough and Jones argue their thesis: William
                Sherman
                > was
                > > a
                > > > better general than his Confederate counterparts. This fact
                has been
                > > > obvious for 125 years...."
                > >
                > > What is the citation for McMurry's review in the Journal of
                Southern
                > > History? I would like to get a copy of the review to put in my
                copy of
                > "War
                > > So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta."
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > > Bill
                > >
                > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > > "There are no bad regiments, there are only bad officers."
                > > Field Marshall Lord William (Bill) Slim
                > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > > William H. (Bill) Brown
                > > Editor II, Governors' Documentaries
                > > william.h.brown@n...
                > > Historical Publications Section (Office of Archives and History)
                > > http://www.ncpublications.com/
                > >
                *********************************************************************
                *****
                > > "Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy
                of my
                > > agency &
                > > E-Mail to and from me, in connection with the transaction of
                public
                > > business,
                > > is subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be
                disclosed
                > to
                > > third parties."
                > >
                *********************************************************************
                ***
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • Marc Grad
                What of McDonough s other titles, like Shiloh, In Hell Before Night Fall, or the one s he did on Franklin and Chattanooga? Do they also suffer the same
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 28, 2004
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                  What of McDonough's other titles, like Shiloh, In Hell Before Night
                  Fall, or the one's he did on Franklin and Chattanooga? Do they also
                  suffer the same problems as the Atlanta book. And was the Atlanta
                  book written before or after these other titles?
                • William H Keene
                  ... Don t know about pagairism, but in my opinion his book on Chattanooga shows sloppy research.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 28, 2004
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                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Grad" <heidimarc@m...> wrote:
                    > What of McDonough's other titles, like Shiloh, In Hell Before Night
                    > Fall, or the one's he did on Franklin and Chattanooga? Do they also
                    > suffer the same problems as the Atlanta book. And was the Atlanta
                    > book written before or after these other titles?

                    Don't know about pagairism, but in my opinion his book on Chattanooga shows sloppy
                    research.
                  • R.W. (Bob) Taubman
                    You are quite welcome. I enjoy the exercise. Being a retired police officer/systems analyst, I enjoy the online sleuthing . I think we agree that had the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 28, 2004
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                      You are quite welcome. I enjoy the exercise. Being a retired police
                      officer/systems analyst, I enjoy the online "sleuthing".

                      I think we agree that had the proper citations and and credits been given,
                      there wouldn't have been a problem with the book. I have it on my shelf and
                      it shall remain there with the proper cautions. It is unfortunate that a
                      book that may be historically correct is now of questionable value due to
                      the plagiarism issue.



                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "aot1952" <aot1952@...>
                      To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 2:05 PM
                      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: McMurry Review Citation


                      > -Mr. Taubman-
                      > Thank you for going to the trouble of finding and posting the
                      > article.
                      > By profession I am a lawyer and the art of writing briefs and memos
                      > is founded upon liberally 'stealing' large portions of other
                      > people's successful writings and form type documents. Because of
                      > this discipline of cutting and pasting in my work life I have always
                      > been very hesitant to try and write much serious history for fear I
                      > would likely unintentionally run afoul of plagarism. This article
                      > convinces me that I should not be so concerned. It looks to me that
                      > McDonough actions here were not just sloppy and not even a lazy 'cut
                      > and paste' job but a real studied effort to mask someone else's work
                      > as his own.
                      > To be honest I am kind of surprised that McDonough remains employeed
                      > at a major University (I think he is still at Auburn but I sure
                      > could be wrong).
                      > Thanks again, very eye opening.
                      > Wakefield
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "R.W. \(Bob\) Taubman"
                      > <rtaubman@r...> wrote:
                      > > http://www.fit.edu/current/plagiarism.pdf
                      > >
                      > > While the entire article is not contained in the paper on
                      > plagiarism, it
                      > > does show (some of) the offending text and the text of McMurry's
                      > paper.
                      > > Page 11 of the above .pdf file. I don't know if this is the only
                      > text in
                      > > question.
                      > >
                      > > "When Professor Richard M. McMurry was asked to review the book
                      > War So
                      > > Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta by James Lee McDonough and James
                      > Pickett Jones
                      > > (since withdrawn), McMurry discovered much of the book had
                      > been "pilfered"
                      > > from his own doctoral dissertation. This example from War So
                      > Terrible,
                      > > reproduced in McMurry's review, is an excellent example of improper
                      > > paraphrasing and structural paraphrase plagiarism.14 "
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "Bill Brown" <william.h.brown@n...>
                      > > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 11:31 AM
                      > > Subject: [civilwarwest] McMurry Review Citation
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > > Concerning "War So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta" -- James Lee
                      > McDonough
                      > > &
                      > > > > James Pickett Jones -- Wakefield et al. are absolutely
                      > correct; the book
                      > > > is
                      > > > > poison. So much of it was plagiarized, so baldly, that when
                      > all the
                      > > > stolen
                      > > > > words are swept away (as Richard McMurry remarked in a crisp
                      > review in
                      > > > "The
                      > > > > Journal of Southern History" ), "one is left with a shallow,
                      > > error-riddled
                      > > > > essay in which McDonough and Jones argue their thesis: William
                      > Sherman
                      > > was
                      > > > a
                      > > > > better general than his Confederate counterparts. This fact
                      > has been
                      > > > > obvious for 125 years...."
                      > > >
                      > > > What is the citation for McMurry's review in the Journal of
                      > Southern
                      > > > History? I would like to get a copy of the review to put in my
                      > copy of
                      > > "War
                      > > > So Terrible: Sherman and Atlanta."
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks,
                      > > > Bill
                      > > >
                      > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      > > > "There are no bad regiments, there are only bad officers."
                      > > > Field Marshall Lord William (Bill) Slim
                      > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      > > > William H. (Bill) Brown
                      > > > Editor II, Governors' Documentaries
                      > > > william.h.brown@n...
                      > > > Historical Publications Section (Office of Archives and History)
                      > > > http://www.ncpublications.com/
                      > > >
                      > *********************************************************************
                      > *****
                      > > > "Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy
                      > of my
                      > > > agency &
                      > > > E-Mail to and from me, in connection with the transaction of
                      > public
                      > > > business,
                      > > > is subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be
                      > disclosed
                      > > to
                      > > > third parties."
                      > > >
                      > *********************************************************************
                      > ***
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • SDE80@aol.com
                      In a message dated 4/28/2004 2:28:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... After. And he has a new book on the Battle of Nashville coming out in the Fall.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 28, 2004
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                        In a message dated 4/28/2004 2:28:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, heidimarc@... writes:

                        What of McDonough's other titles, like Shiloh, In Hell Before Night
                        Fall, or the one's he did on Franklin and Chattanooga?  Do they also
                        suffer the same problems as the Atlanta book.  And was the Atlanta
                        book written before or after these other titles?


                        After.  And he has a new book on the Battle of Nashville coming out in the Fall. 

                        Incidentally, he and James Pickett Jones were co-authors of War So Terrible.  I don't know who McMurry considers the plagerizer to be.

                        Sam Elliott
                      • Dave Smith
                        I ll try to address both Will and Marc here. The McDonough Atlanta book was, to the best of my knowledge, McDonough s first. I do not believe that the
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 5, 2004
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                          I'll try to address both Will and Marc here.

                          The McDonough Atlanta book was, to the best of my knowledge,
                          McDonough's first. I do not believe that the plagiarism problems
                          persist in his other books.

                          I'm absolutely *not* a McDonough fan; I agree with Will that his
                          research is sloppy, and later works employ the "Historian John Doe
                          suggests that ..." as his interpretation of events, decisions, etc.
                          I'm not interested in seeing what others have said; if interested,
                          I'll read their works.

                          But McDonough was an early writer (80s and early 90s) of western
                          battles, before Cozzens came along.

                          Dave

                          Dave Smith
                          Villa Hills, Ky

                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene"
                          <wh_keene@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Grad" <heidimarc@m...>
                          wrote:
                          > > What of McDonough's other titles, like Shiloh, In Hell Before
                          Night
                          > > Fall, or the one's he did on Franklin and Chattanooga? Do they
                          also
                          > > suffer the same problems as the Atlanta book. And was the
                          Atlanta
                          > > book written before or after these other titles?
                          >
                          > Don't know about pagairism, but in my opinion his book on
                          Chattanooga shows sloppy
                          > research.
                        • Dave Smith
                          I m not sure who McMurry considers to be the plagiarizer, but it s a pretty clear indication of problems with co-authors, even if responsibilities are clearly
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 5, 2004
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                            I'm not sure who McMurry considers to be the plagiarizer, but it's a
                            pretty clear indication of problems with co-authors, even if
                            responsibilities are clearly delineated.

                            I'd think the standard response would be that they were both
                            plagiarizers.

                            Dave

                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, SDE80@a... wrote:
                            > In a message dated 4/28/2004 2:28:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                            > heidimarc@m... writes:
                            >
                            > > What of McDonough's other titles, like Shiloh, In Hell Before
                            Night
                            > > Fall, or the one's he did on Franklin and Chattanooga? Do they
                            also
                            > > suffer the same problems as the Atlanta book. And was the
                            Atlanta
                            > > book written before or after these other titles?
                            > >
                            >
                            > After. And he has a new book on the Battle of Nashville coming out
                            in the
                            > Fall.
                            >
                            > Incidentally, he and James Pickett Jones were co-authors of War So
                            Terrible.
                            > I don't know who McMurry considers the plagerizer to be.
                            >
                            > Sam Elliott
                          • Dave Smith
                            ... The problem, of course, is that if plagiarized, it adds no new thought to what has been originally written - whether available to us in written form or
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 5, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "R.W. \(Bob\) Taubman"
                              <rtaubman@r...> wrote:
                              > You are quite welcome. I enjoy the exercise. Being a retired police
                              > officer/systems analyst, I enjoy the online "sleuthing".
                              >
                              > I think we agree that had the proper citations and and credits been
                              > given, there wouldn't have been a problem with the book. I have it
                              > on my shelf and it shall remain there with the proper cautions. It
                              > is unfortunate that a book that may be historically correct is now
                              > of questionable value due to the plagiarism issue.

                              The problem, of course, is that if plagiarized, it adds no new
                              thought to what has been originally written - whether available to us
                              in written form or not.

                              McMurry was historically correct; the McDonough book added nothing
                              (at least insofar as the plagiarized parts go).

                              Dave

                              Dave Smith
                              Villa Hills, KY
                            • Jfepperson@aol.com
                              ... I owned his Shiloh book long before the Atlanta one came out. The Atlanta book has a 1991 publication date (I *think*) and Amazon indicates the Shiloh
                              Message 14 of 14 , May 5, 2004
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                                In a message dated 5/5/2004 1:01:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dmsmith001@... writes:

                                > The McDonough Atlanta book was, to the best of my
                                > knowledge, McDonough's first.

                                I owned his Shiloh book long before the Atlanta one
                                came out. The Atlanta book has a 1991 publication
                                date (I *think*) and Amazon indicates the Shiloh book
                                was published in 1983.

                                I think his work is very superficial. Most of us could
                                do as well.

                                I do recall, before I learned of the plagerism issue,
                                seeing folks refer to Castel's book as the *first*
                                book-length treatment of the campaign, and wondering
                                why the McDonough-Jones book was being ignored.

                                JFE
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