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[civilwarwest] Lee/West

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  • Mark Wiggin
    I think Jack got my what if. Maybe I should have been clear on Lee going west after Gettysburg. He goes after the historical results of the battle not after
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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      I think Jack got my what if. Maybe I should have been clear on Lee
      going west after Gettysburg. He goes after the historical results of
      the battle not after taking D.C.
      How about this, he accompanies Longstreet's command as is historically
      happened. Except he is now in overall charge of the western theater.
      Johnston or Beauregard is now in command in Virginia, depending on which
      one had irked Davis the most at the time. Lee is sent to salvage
      something out west.
      thanks
      Mark
    • Carl Thames
      Lee would not have been able to do much of anything. The tools make the man some people say and Lee did not have the tools. He would merely have delayed
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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        Lee would not have been able to do much of anything. The tools make the man
        some people say and Lee did not have the tools. He would merely have
        delayed Rosecrans', and later Sherman's, advance. Lee probably have avoided
        that appointment at all costs.

        Respectfully,
        Carl


        >From: Mark Wiggin <mawig@...>
        >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
        >To: civil war west <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
        >Subject: [civilwarwest] Lee/West
        >Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:29:44 -0500
        >
        >I think Jack got my what if. Maybe I should have been clear on Lee
        >going west after Gettysburg. He goes after the historical results of
        >the battle not after taking D.C.
        >How about this, he accompanies Longstreet's command as is historically
        >happened. Except he is now in overall charge of the western theater.
        >Johnston or Beauregard is now in command in Virginia, depending on which
        >one had irked Davis the most at the time. Lee is sent to salvage
        >something out west.
        >thanks
        >Mark
        >
        >
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        >-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
        >-- http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=civilwarwest&m=1
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        ______________________________________________________
      • JackEhmer123@aol.com
        In a message dated 11/23/1999 4:26:37 PM Mountain Standard Time, darthcarl13@hotmail.com writes:
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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          In a message dated 11/23/1999 4:26:37 PM Mountain Standard Time,
          darthcarl13@... writes:

          << Subj: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
          Date: 11/23/1999 4:26:37 PM Mountain Standard Time
          From: darthcarl13@... (Carl Thames)
          Reply-to: civilwarwest@egroups.com
          To: civilwarwest@egroups.com

          Lee would not have been able to do much of anything. The tools make the man
          some people say and Lee did not have the tools. He would merely have
          delayed Rosecrans', and later Sherman's, advance. Lee probably have avoided
          that appointment at all costs.

          Respectfully,
          Carl
          >>
          I agree that Lee wouldn't have taken the assignment, partly because of his
          allegiance to Virginia. I would like to pose another angle to this scenario;
          why was Longstreet so anxious to go West? And why didn't Davis remove Bragg
          when all of his lieutenants, including Longstreet, urged him to?

          Jack Ehmer
        • Mike Meno
          It would have been interesting if Bragg was removed and Longstreet given command, but after Longstreet goes back east, who assumes command of the Tennesse?
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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            It would have been interesting if Bragg was removed and Longstreet given
            command, but after Longstreet goes back east, who assumes command of the
            Tennesse? Polk? I really doubt Longstreet would have stayed out west, Lee
            needed him to much, especially then.

            Your Obediant Servant:
            Mike

            >From: JackEhmer123@...
            >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
            >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
            >Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
            >Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:35:28 EST
            >
            >In a message dated 11/23/1999 4:26:37 PM Mountain Standard Time,
            >darthcarl13@... writes:
            >
            ><< Subj: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
            > Date: 11/23/1999 4:26:37 PM Mountain Standard Time
            > From: darthcarl13@... (Carl Thames)
            > Reply-to: civilwarwest@egroups.com
            > To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
            >
            > Lee would not have been able to do much of anything. The tools make the
            >man
            > some people say and Lee did not have the tools. He would merely have
            > delayed Rosecrans', and later Sherman's, advance. Lee probably have
            >avoided
            > that appointment at all costs.
            >
            > Respectfully,
            > Carl
            > >>
            >I agree that Lee wouldn't have taken the assignment, partly because of his
            >allegiance to Virginia. I would like to pose another angle to this
            >scenario;
            >why was Longstreet so anxious to go West? And why didn't Davis remove Bragg
            >when all of his lieutenants, including Longstreet, urged him to?
            >
            >Jack Ehmer
            >
            >------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >-- Talk to your group with your own voice!
            >-- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=civilwarwest&m=1
            >
            >

            ______________________________________________________
          • Mike Meno
            It would have been interesting if Bragg was removed and Longstreet given command, but after Longstreet goes back east, who assumes command of the Tennesse?
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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              It would have been interesting if Bragg was removed and Longstreet given
              command, but after Longstreet goes back east, who assumes command of the
              Tennesse? Polk? I really doubt Longstreet would have stayed out west, Lee
              needed him to much, especially then.

              Your Obediant Servant:
              Mike

              >From: JackEhmer123@...
              >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
              >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
              >Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
              >Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:35:28 EST
              >
              >In a message dated 11/23/1999 4:26:37 PM Mountain Standard Time,
              >darthcarl13@... writes:
              >
              ><< Subj: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
              > Date: 11/23/1999 4:26:37 PM Mountain Standard Time
              > From: darthcarl13@... (Carl Thames)
              > Reply-to: civilwarwest@egroups.com
              > To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
              >
              > Lee would not have been able to do much of anything. The tools make the
              >man
              > some people say and Lee did not have the tools. He would merely have
              > delayed Rosecrans', and later Sherman's, advance. Lee probably have
              >avoided
              > that appointment at all costs.
              >
              > Respectfully,
              > Carl
              > >>
              >I agree that Lee wouldn't have taken the assignment, partly because of his
              >allegiance to Virginia. I would like to pose another angle to this
              >scenario;
              >why was Longstreet so anxious to go West? And why didn't Davis remove Bragg
              >when all of his lieutenants, including Longstreet, urged him to?
              >
              >Jack Ehmer
              >
              >------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >-- Talk to your group with your own voice!
              >-- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=civilwarwest&m=1
              >
              >

              ______________________________________________________
            • Carl Thames
              Like all of us, Davis was human. In the front of my copy of The Killer Angels there is a quote: I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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                Like all of us, Davis was human. In the front of my copy of "The Killer
                Angels" there is a quote:

                "I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my
                country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my
                country."
                E.M. Forster

                Respectfully,
                Carl

                >From: JackEhmer123@...
                >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                >Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
                >Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:35:28 EST
                >
                >In a message dated 11/23/1999 4:26:37 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                >darthcarl13@... writes:
                >
                ><< Subj: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
                > Date: 11/23/1999 4:26:37 PM Mountain Standard Time
                > From: darthcarl13@... (Carl Thames)
                > Reply-to: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                > To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                >
                > Lee would not have been able to do much of anything. The tools make the
                >man
                > some people say and Lee did not have the tools. He would merely have
                > delayed Rosecrans', and later Sherman's, advance. Lee probably have
                >avoided
                > that appointment at all costs.
                >
                > Respectfully,
                > Carl
                > >>
                >I agree that Lee wouldn't have taken the assignment, partly because of his
                >allegiance to Virginia. I would like to pose another angle to this
                >scenario;
                >why was Longstreet so anxious to go West? And why didn't Davis remove Bragg
                >when all of his lieutenants, including Longstreet, urged him to?
                >
                >Jack Ehmer
                >
                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >-- Talk to your group with your own voice!
                >-- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=civilwarwest&m=1
                >
                >

                ______________________________________________________
              • Carl Thames
                Like all of us, Davis was human. In the front of my copy of The Killer Angels there is a quote: I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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                  Like all of us, Davis was human. In the front of my copy of "The Killer
                  Angels" there is a quote:

                  "I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my
                  country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my
                  country."
                  E.M. Forster

                  Respectfully,
                  Carl

                  >From: JackEhmer123@...
                  >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                  >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                  >Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
                  >Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:35:28 EST
                  >
                  >In a message dated 11/23/1999 4:26:37 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                  >darthcarl13@... writes:
                  >
                  ><< Subj: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
                  > Date: 11/23/1999 4:26:37 PM Mountain Standard Time
                  > From: darthcarl13@... (Carl Thames)
                  > Reply-to: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                  > To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                  >
                  > Lee would not have been able to do much of anything. The tools make the
                  >man
                  > some people say and Lee did not have the tools. He would merely have
                  > delayed Rosecrans', and later Sherman's, advance. Lee probably have
                  >avoided
                  > that appointment at all costs.
                  >
                  > Respectfully,
                  > Carl
                  > >>
                  >I agree that Lee wouldn't have taken the assignment, partly because of his
                  >allegiance to Virginia. I would like to pose another angle to this
                  >scenario;
                  >why was Longstreet so anxious to go West? And why didn't Davis remove Bragg
                  >when all of his lieutenants, including Longstreet, urged him to?
                  >
                  >Jack Ehmer
                  >
                  >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >-- Talk to your group with your own voice!
                  >-- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=civilwarwest&m=1
                  >
                  >

                  ______________________________________________________
                • JackEhmer123@aol.com
                  In a message dated 11/23/1999 5:10:38 PM Mountain Standard Time, darthcarl13@hotmail.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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                    In a message dated 11/23/1999 5:10:38 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                    darthcarl13@... writes:

                    << Subj: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
                    Date: 11/23/1999 5:10:38 PM Mountain Standard Time
                    From: darthcarl13@... (Carl Thames)
                    Reply-to: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                    To: civilwarwest@egroups.com

                    Like all of us, Davis was human. In the front of my copy of "The Killer
                    Angels" there is a quote:

                    "I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my
                    country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my
                    country."
                    E.M. Forster

                    Respectfully,
                    Carl >>


                    Good post, Carl. Davis was loyal to friends to a fault. I do feel that Lee
                    would have released Longstreet to take overall command of the West.

                    Jack
                  • JackEhmer123@aol.com
                    In a message dated 11/23/1999 5:10:38 PM Mountain Standard Time, darthcarl13@hotmail.com writes:
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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                      In a message dated 11/23/1999 5:10:38 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                      darthcarl13@... writes:

                      << Subj: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
                      Date: 11/23/1999 5:10:38 PM Mountain Standard Time
                      From: darthcarl13@... (Carl Thames)
                      Reply-to: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                      To: civilwarwest@egroups.com

                      Like all of us, Davis was human. In the front of my copy of "The Killer
                      Angels" there is a quote:

                      "I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my
                      country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my
                      country."
                      E.M. Forster

                      Respectfully,
                      Carl >>


                      Good post, Carl. Davis was loyal to friends to a fault. I do feel that Lee
                      would have released Longstreet to take overall command of the West.

                      Jack
                    • Mike Meno
                      Another interesting what if: Longstreet is given overall command in the west. Could he of prevented Sherman from taking Atlanta? If he did, Georgia isn t lost,
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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                        Another interesting what if: Longstreet is given overall command in the
                        west. Could he of prevented Sherman from taking Atlanta? If he did, Georgia
                        isn't lost, neither are the Carolinas and Sherman's March never takes place.
                        Or say Sherman takes Atlanta, but during the march Longstreet takes the
                        entire bulk of western forces and (although unlikely for Longstreet) attacks
                        and defeats Sherman. Would Sherman have to turn back? If he did, the
                        heartland of the Confederacy isn't lost, perhaps Longstreet aides Lee, and
                        together really whip Grant. Would Grant be relieved of command? The south
                        may have won the war, or fought on for several more years. Just another
                        thing to think about.

                        Your Obediant Servant:
                        Mike


                        >From: JackEhmer123@...
                        >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                        >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                        >Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
                        >Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:08:39 EST
                        >
                        >In a message dated 11/23/1999 5:10:38 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                        >darthcarl13@... writes:
                        >
                        ><< Subj: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
                        > Date: 11/23/1999 5:10:38 PM Mountain Standard Time
                        > From: darthcarl13@... (Carl Thames)
                        > Reply-to: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                        > To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                        >
                        > Like all of us, Davis was human. In the front of my copy of "The Killer
                        > Angels" there is a quote:
                        >
                        > "I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my
                        > country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray
                        >my
                        > country."
                        > E.M. Forster
                        >
                        > Respectfully,
                        > Carl >>
                        >
                        >
                        >Good post, Carl. Davis was loyal to friends to a fault. I do feel that Lee
                        >would have released Longstreet to take overall command of the West.
                        >
                        >Jack
                        >
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                        ______________________________________________________
                      • Mike Meno
                        Another interesting what if: Longstreet is given overall command in the west. Could he of prevented Sherman from taking Atlanta? If he did, Georgia isn t lost,
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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                          Another interesting what if: Longstreet is given overall command in the
                          west. Could he of prevented Sherman from taking Atlanta? If he did, Georgia
                          isn't lost, neither are the Carolinas and Sherman's March never takes place.
                          Or say Sherman takes Atlanta, but during the march Longstreet takes the
                          entire bulk of western forces and (although unlikely for Longstreet) attacks
                          and defeats Sherman. Would Sherman have to turn back? If he did, the
                          heartland of the Confederacy isn't lost, perhaps Longstreet aides Lee, and
                          together really whip Grant. Would Grant be relieved of command? The south
                          may have won the war, or fought on for several more years. Just another
                          thing to think about.

                          Your Obediant Servant:
                          Mike


                          >From: JackEhmer123@...
                          >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                          >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                          >Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
                          >Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:08:39 EST
                          >
                          >In a message dated 11/23/1999 5:10:38 PM Mountain Standard Time,
                          >darthcarl13@... writes:
                          >
                          ><< Subj: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West
                          > Date: 11/23/1999 5:10:38 PM Mountain Standard Time
                          > From: darthcarl13@... (Carl Thames)
                          > Reply-to: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                          > To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                          >
                          > Like all of us, Davis was human. In the front of my copy of "The Killer
                          > Angels" there is a quote:
                          >
                          > "I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my
                          > country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray
                          >my
                          > country."
                          > E.M. Forster
                          >
                          > Respectfully,
                          > Carl >>
                          >
                          >
                          >Good post, Carl. Davis was loyal to friends to a fault. I do feel that Lee
                          >would have released Longstreet to take overall command of the West.
                          >
                          >Jack
                          >
                          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          >FREE Post-it� Notes! Get 10 4"x3" note pads (with
                          >your own personal message and graphics) FREE at
                          >iPrint.com. Pay just $3.20 for shipping to U.S. addresses.
                          >http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1801
                          >
                          >
                          >-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
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                          ______________________________________________________
                        • ECM777@aol.com
                          Hi, I m new to the group. Don t know nearly as much as you guys about all this, but I m getting quite an education reading your emails! I m mostly interested
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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                            Hi, I'm new to the group. Don't know nearly as much as you guys about all
                            this, but I'm getting quite an education reading your emails! I'm mostly
                            interested in Chickamauga and Chattanooga, since that's where I live.
                            However, just a thought on the Longstreet senario. I believe Longstreet was
                            an opportunist and his intent in coming to the West was the hopes of
                            commanding the Army of Tennessee. He never liked Bragg and thought him a
                            poor commander. Things certainly would have been different had he been in
                            charge. Unfortunately, he wasn't given that chance, since he seems to
                            disregard most, if not all, of Bragg's orders and thus, Bragg removed him.
                            And we all know that Polk would not have been a likely or a good replacement.

                            I am, however, still at a lose as to why Davis didn't remove Bragg. What
                            deep seeded loyalty did he have for Bragg that doesn't seem to be recorded
                            any where? At times, I feel Bragg has been given a bum rap, but he certainly
                            proved them all correct in his lack of aggression in Chattanooga.
                            Thanks for letting me join in.
                            Most sincerely,
                            Colleen
                          • ECM777@aol.com
                            Hi, I m new to the group. Don t know nearly as much as you guys about all this, but I m getting quite an education reading your emails! I m mostly interested
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 23, 1999
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                              Hi, I'm new to the group. Don't know nearly as much as you guys about all
                              this, but I'm getting quite an education reading your emails! I'm mostly
                              interested in Chickamauga and Chattanooga, since that's where I live.
                              However, just a thought on the Longstreet senario. I believe Longstreet was
                              an opportunist and his intent in coming to the West was the hopes of
                              commanding the Army of Tennessee. He never liked Bragg and thought him a
                              poor commander. Things certainly would have been different had he been in
                              charge. Unfortunately, he wasn't given that chance, since he seems to
                              disregard most, if not all, of Bragg's orders and thus, Bragg removed him.
                              And we all know that Polk would not have been a likely or a good replacement.

                              I am, however, still at a lose as to why Davis didn't remove Bragg. What
                              deep seeded loyalty did he have for Bragg that doesn't seem to be recorded
                              any where? At times, I feel Bragg has been given a bum rap, but he certainly
                              proved them all correct in his lack of aggression in Chattanooga.
                              Thanks for letting me join in.
                              Most sincerely,
                              Colleen
                            • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
                              I agree with your assessment of Longstreet s motives. I think he wanted to go west and replace Bragg. What would have happened in the Chattanooga campaign if
                              Message 14 of 20 , Nov 24, 1999
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                                I agree with your assessment of Longstreet's motives. I think he wanted
                                to go west and replace Bragg. What would have happened in the
                                Chattanooga campaign if Longstreet commanded? Note the interesting
                                contrast in attitudes between the AOT officers and those of Longstreet's
                                Corps at Chickamauga as recorded by Hood. I am a great admirer of
                                Longstreet, so I may be biased, but I think he would have fared better
                                than Bragg or Johnston. Yes, Johnston was outnumbered, etc etc, but the
                                man did not fight. Lee managed to repeatedly take the fight to the
                                Federals under the same disadvantages as Johnston. Personally, I think
                                Bragg would have done a better job of trying to defend Atlanta than
                                Johnston did, and Longstreet better than either. I think one of the
                                most crucial characteristics of an army commander was to be able to see
                                what was happening around him, correctly guess what to do, and then to
                                act decisively. This seemed to be where Bragg was most lacking. My own
                                amateur opinion.
                                Andy

                                ECM777@... wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi, I'm new to the group. Don't know nearly as much as you guys about all
                                > this, but I'm getting quite an education reading your emails! I'm mostly
                                > interested in Chickamauga and Chattanooga, since that's where I live.
                                > However, just a thought on the Longstreet senario. I believe Longstreet was
                                > an opportunist and his intent in coming to the West was the hopes of
                                > commanding the Army of Tennessee. He never liked Bragg and thought him a
                                > poor commander. Things certainly would have been different had he been in
                                > charge. Unfortunately, he wasn't given that chance, since he seems to
                                > disregard most, if not all, of Bragg's orders and thus, Bragg removed him.
                                > And we all know that Polk would not have been a likely or a good replacement.
                                >
                                > I am, however, still at a lose as to why Davis didn't remove Bragg. What
                                > deep seeded loyalty did he have for Bragg that doesn't seem to be recorded
                                > any where? At times, I feel Bragg has been given a bum rap, but he certainly
                                > proved them all correct in his lack of aggression in Chattanooga.
                                > Thanks for letting me join in.
                                > Most sincerely,
                                > Colleen
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
                                > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1702
                                >
                                > -- Create a poll/survey for your group!
                                > -- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=civilwarwest&m=1
                              • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
                                I agree with your assessment of Longstreet s motives. I think he wanted to go west and replace Bragg. What would have happened in the Chattanooga campaign if
                                Message 15 of 20 , Nov 24, 1999
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                                  I agree with your assessment of Longstreet's motives. I think he wanted
                                  to go west and replace Bragg. What would have happened in the
                                  Chattanooga campaign if Longstreet commanded? Note the interesting
                                  contrast in attitudes between the AOT officers and those of Longstreet's
                                  Corps at Chickamauga as recorded by Hood. I am a great admirer of
                                  Longstreet, so I may be biased, but I think he would have fared better
                                  than Bragg or Johnston. Yes, Johnston was outnumbered, etc etc, but the
                                  man did not fight. Lee managed to repeatedly take the fight to the
                                  Federals under the same disadvantages as Johnston. Personally, I think
                                  Bragg would have done a better job of trying to defend Atlanta than
                                  Johnston did, and Longstreet better than either. I think one of the
                                  most crucial characteristics of an army commander was to be able to see
                                  what was happening around him, correctly guess what to do, and then to
                                  act decisively. This seemed to be where Bragg was most lacking. My own
                                  amateur opinion.
                                  Andy

                                  ECM777@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi, I'm new to the group. Don't know nearly as much as you guys about all
                                  > this, but I'm getting quite an education reading your emails! I'm mostly
                                  > interested in Chickamauga and Chattanooga, since that's where I live.
                                  > However, just a thought on the Longstreet senario. I believe Longstreet was
                                  > an opportunist and his intent in coming to the West was the hopes of
                                  > commanding the Army of Tennessee. He never liked Bragg and thought him a
                                  > poor commander. Things certainly would have been different had he been in
                                  > charge. Unfortunately, he wasn't given that chance, since he seems to
                                  > disregard most, if not all, of Bragg's orders and thus, Bragg removed him.
                                  > And we all know that Polk would not have been a likely or a good replacement.
                                  >
                                  > I am, however, still at a lose as to why Davis didn't remove Bragg. What
                                  > deep seeded loyalty did he have for Bragg that doesn't seem to be recorded
                                  > any where? At times, I feel Bragg has been given a bum rap, but he certainly
                                  > proved them all correct in his lack of aggression in Chattanooga.
                                  > Thanks for letting me join in.
                                  > Most sincerely,
                                  > Colleen
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
                                  > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1702
                                  >
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                                • Dameron McRaven
                                  Dr. Burden, I want to address your idea that Bragg would have done a better job than Johnston in the defense of Atlanta. I don t believe that Bragg would have
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Nov 24, 1999
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dr. Burden,
                                    I want to address your idea that Bragg would have
                                    done a better job than Johnston in the defense of Atlanta. I don't believe
                                    that Bragg would have had nearly as much success as Johnston. By success I
                                    mean keeping the Army of Tennessee intact, and delaying Sherman's progress.
                                    Bragg would have been more likely to contest an advance than Johnston, but
                                    what of the morale of the army. After Chattanooga the army was in very bad
                                    condition, and was only put back into fighting shape by Johnston's
                                    assignment to command. Bragg had failed his men too many times, plus all the
                                    in-fighting in the high command had taken its toll. Had Bragg been in
                                    command at Dalton when McPherson threatened the flank through Snake Creek
                                    Gap could he have withdrawn the Army before Sherman cut him off from his
                                    line of retreat? With the morale so low, and command problems, I don't think
                                    he could have managed it. THe Atlanta Campaign would have ended months
                                    earlier. Just my humble opinion.

                                    Dameron
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D. <daburden@...>
                                    To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 8:43 AM
                                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West


                                    > I agree with your assessment of Longstreet's motives. I think he wanted
                                    > to go west and replace Bragg. What would have happened in the
                                    > Chattanooga campaign if Longstreet commanded? Note the interesting
                                    > contrast in attitudes between the AOT officers and those of Longstreet's
                                    > Corps at Chickamauga as recorded by Hood. I am a great admirer of
                                    > Longstreet, so I may be biased, but I think he would have fared better
                                    > than Bragg or Johnston. Yes, Johnston was outnumbered, etc etc, but the
                                    > man did not fight. Lee managed to repeatedly take the fight to the
                                    > Federals under the same disadvantages as Johnston. Personally, I think
                                    > Bragg would have done a better job of trying to defend Atlanta than
                                    > Johnston did, and Longstreet better than either. I think one of the
                                    > most crucial characteristics of an army commander was to be able to see
                                    > what was happening around him, correctly guess what to do, and then to
                                    > act decisively. This seemed to be where Bragg was most lacking. My own
                                    > amateur opinion.
                                    > Andy
                                    >
                                    > ECM777@... wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi, I'm new to the group. Don't know nearly as much as you guys about
                                    all
                                    > > this, but I'm getting quite an education reading your emails! I'm
                                    mostly
                                    > > interested in Chickamauga and Chattanooga, since that's where I live.
                                    > > However, just a thought on the Longstreet senario. I believe Longstreet
                                    was
                                    > > an opportunist and his intent in coming to the West was the hopes of
                                    > > commanding the Army of Tennessee. He never liked Bragg and thought him
                                    a
                                    > > poor commander. Things certainly would have been different had he been
                                    in
                                    > > charge. Unfortunately, he wasn't given that chance, since he seems to
                                    > > disregard most, if not all, of Bragg's orders and thus, Bragg removed
                                    him.
                                    > > And we all know that Polk would not have been a likely or a good
                                    replacement.
                                    > >
                                    > > I am, however, still at a lose as to why Davis didn't remove Bragg.
                                    What
                                    > > deep seeded loyalty did he have for Bragg that doesn't seem to be
                                    recorded
                                    > > any where? At times, I feel Bragg has been given a bum rap, but he
                                    certainly
                                    > > proved them all correct in his lack of aggression in Chattanooga.
                                    > > Thanks for letting me join in.
                                    > > Most sincerely,
                                    > > Colleen
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
                                    > > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1702
                                    > >
                                    > > -- Create a poll/survey for your group!
                                    > > -- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=civilwarwest&m=1
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
                                    > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1702
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                  • Dameron McRaven
                                    Dr. Burden, I want to address your idea that Bragg would have done a better job than Johnston in the defense of Atlanta. I don t believe that Bragg would have
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Nov 24, 1999
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dr. Burden,
                                      I want to address your idea that Bragg would have
                                      done a better job than Johnston in the defense of Atlanta. I don't believe
                                      that Bragg would have had nearly as much success as Johnston. By success I
                                      mean keeping the Army of Tennessee intact, and delaying Sherman's progress.
                                      Bragg would have been more likely to contest an advance than Johnston, but
                                      what of the morale of the army. After Chattanooga the army was in very bad
                                      condition, and was only put back into fighting shape by Johnston's
                                      assignment to command. Bragg had failed his men too many times, plus all the
                                      in-fighting in the high command had taken its toll. Had Bragg been in
                                      command at Dalton when McPherson threatened the flank through Snake Creek
                                      Gap could he have withdrawn the Army before Sherman cut him off from his
                                      line of retreat? With the morale so low, and command problems, I don't think
                                      he could have managed it. THe Atlanta Campaign would have ended months
                                      earlier. Just my humble opinion.

                                      Dameron
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D. <daburden@...>
                                      To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 8:43 AM
                                      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Lee/West


                                      > I agree with your assessment of Longstreet's motives. I think he wanted
                                      > to go west and replace Bragg. What would have happened in the
                                      > Chattanooga campaign if Longstreet commanded? Note the interesting
                                      > contrast in attitudes between the AOT officers and those of Longstreet's
                                      > Corps at Chickamauga as recorded by Hood. I am a great admirer of
                                      > Longstreet, so I may be biased, but I think he would have fared better
                                      > than Bragg or Johnston. Yes, Johnston was outnumbered, etc etc, but the
                                      > man did not fight. Lee managed to repeatedly take the fight to the
                                      > Federals under the same disadvantages as Johnston. Personally, I think
                                      > Bragg would have done a better job of trying to defend Atlanta than
                                      > Johnston did, and Longstreet better than either. I think one of the
                                      > most crucial characteristics of an army commander was to be able to see
                                      > what was happening around him, correctly guess what to do, and then to
                                      > act decisively. This seemed to be where Bragg was most lacking. My own
                                      > amateur opinion.
                                      > Andy
                                      >
                                      > ECM777@... wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi, I'm new to the group. Don't know nearly as much as you guys about
                                      all
                                      > > this, but I'm getting quite an education reading your emails! I'm
                                      mostly
                                      > > interested in Chickamauga and Chattanooga, since that's where I live.
                                      > > However, just a thought on the Longstreet senario. I believe Longstreet
                                      was
                                      > > an opportunist and his intent in coming to the West was the hopes of
                                      > > commanding the Army of Tennessee. He never liked Bragg and thought him
                                      a
                                      > > poor commander. Things certainly would have been different had he been
                                      in
                                      > > charge. Unfortunately, he wasn't given that chance, since he seems to
                                      > > disregard most, if not all, of Bragg's orders and thus, Bragg removed
                                      him.
                                      > > And we all know that Polk would not have been a likely or a good
                                      replacement.
                                      > >
                                      > > I am, however, still at a lose as to why Davis didn't remove Bragg.
                                      What
                                      > > deep seeded loyalty did he have for Bragg that doesn't seem to be
                                      recorded
                                      > > any where? At times, I feel Bragg has been given a bum rap, but he
                                      certainly
                                      > > proved them all correct in his lack of aggression in Chattanooga.
                                      > > Thanks for letting me join in.
                                      > > Most sincerely,
                                      > > Colleen
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      > > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
                                      > > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1702
                                      > >
                                      > > -- Create a poll/survey for your group!
                                      > > -- http://www.egroups.com/vote?listname=civilwarwest&m=1
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.
                                      > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1702
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -- Check out your group's private Chat room
                                      > -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=civilwarwest&m=1
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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