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RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Chickamauga Battle Stats - The Breakthrough

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  • tmix
    Joe, That may be true in the East, especially in the Wilderness, but he did the best with whatever was available in the West. He utilized the available
    Message 1 of 73 , Jan 28, 2004
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      Joe,
      That may be true in the East, especially in the Wilderness, but he did
      the best with whatever was available in the West. He utilized the
      available technology when and where it was available. Thanks,
      Tom M.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 7:11 PM
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Chickamauga Battle Stats - The Breakthrough

      Tom Mix,

      I'm not arguing with what you say here about Grant, but just recently
      I read Gordon Rhea's book on the Wilderness, and there was nothing in
      there about Grant using telegraph lines on the battlefield. If
      anything, the communications in the Wilderness were nothing but slow-
      motion mass confusion.

      Joe

      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
      > Note regarding communications: at Chancellorsville Hooker tried to
      use
      > an early version of the telephone designed by the French. It failed
      > badly. Also, Grant always established telegraph lines ASAP. I have
      said
      > that he would be the type to carry a Lap Top PC under his arm at all
      > times today. Tom M.
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
      > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 11:50 AM
      > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Chickamauga Battle Stats - The
      Breakthrough
      >
      > Tom,
      >
      > You are correct, of course. However, this topic started because
      > somebody (I forget who now), was trying to make Rosecrans out to be
      > less culpable in shifting his brigades and divisions pell mell all
      > over the battlefield by saying he didn't know Longstreet's troops
      > were on the scene, insinuating that he couldn't have known a
      > significant enemy force was available to hit his right, when Thomas
      > had his hands so full on the left for two days.
      >
      > I believe that on the night of the 19th, or morning of the 20th
      > Thomas suggested withdrawing the right back to the higher (and
      > shorter) line of Horseshoe Ridge. Rosecrans decided against that,
      > even though he already had good reason to believe that troops from
      > Longstreet's corp were in fact on the field.
      >
      > The use of the telegraph was pretty remarkable for the time. Do
      you
      > know if it was employed in later battles? (I'm thinking of battles
      > of maneuver, not something like the seige lines of Petersburg.)
      >
      > Joe
      >
      > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Thomas A Hardy <thardy9@j...>
      > wrote:
      > > Time to weigh in, as I know a bit about this.
      > >
      > > In a telegram sent about two weeks before the battle, Halleck told
      > > Rosecrans that Longstreet was still in Virginia. At the time,
      > Longstreet
      > > and the boys had been gone about a week.
      > >
      > > So, yes, Rosecrans had been told that Longstreet was still in
      > Virginia.
      > > And yes, he did assume that he would be informed if there was an
      > update
      > > on that information.
      > >
      > > Remember that he had constant telegraphic communication between
      his
      > HQ
      > > and Chattanooga. They even ran a line between Army HQ and the
      > Corps HQs
      > > during the battle (rather remarkable, if you think about it).
      > >
      > > Tom Hardy
      > > Kansas City
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:18:42 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@a...>
      > writes:
      > > > Kevin,
      > > >
      > > > I think that regardless of what Washington may have or may not
      > have
      > > >
      > > > confirmed to Rosecrans about Longstreet's move, he definitely
      > knew
      > > > by
      > > > the afternoon of the 19th that troops from Longstreet's corp
      were
      > on
      > > >
      > > > the battlefield.
      > > >
      > > > Joe
      > > >
      > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, thecoys@k... wrote:
      > > > > I'm trying to catch up here....
      > > > >
      > > > > Wasn't one of the reasons that Rosecrans doubted the arrival
      of
      > > > > Longstreet's Corps was because Washington, i.e.
      > Stanton/Halleck,
      > > > > repeatedly told Rosy that it wasn't true? According to
      > Washington
      > > >
      > > > > Longstreet was still in Virginia.
      > > > >
      > > > > Kevin S. Coy
      > > > >
      > > > > DPowell334@A... wrote:
      > > > > > On the 18th, Wilder and Minty both reported that Bragg was
      > being
      > > >
      > > > heavily
      > > > > > reinforced, and Minty reported the presence of ANV troops.
      > > > Rosecrans and
      > > > > > Crittenden felt that these reports were not correct.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > On the 19th, prisoners were brought to Rosecrans from
      Hood's
      > > > Corps, and
      > > > > > at one point Rosecrans verbally dressed down a Rebel for
      > > > claiming
      > > > he was
      > > > > > from the ANV:)
      > > > > >
      > > > > > However, I think everyone accepted the idea by the morning
      of
      > > > the
      > > > 20th.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > This information spread like wildfire through the army,
      BTW.
      > I
      > > > have
      > > > > > copies of letters written as early as the morning of the
      20th
      > > > that talk
      > > > > > about Longstreet, and by the 24th or so, everyone was
      writing
      > > > home
      > > > > > claiming that they had fought 2-3 times their number of
      > Rebels,
      > > >
      > > > from
      > > > > > Mississippi and Virginia.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Rosecrans spent an unusually sleepless and worry-filled
      night
      > on
      > > >
      > > > the
      > > > > > 19-20th, even for him. One newspaper account describes him
      in
      > a
      > > >
      > > > rare
      > > > > > moment, when he was all alone in front of the fire, as
      > looking
      > > > so
      > > > > > careworn and stressed as to be near tears. I am certain
      that
      > by
      > > >
      > > > then, he
      > > > > > was aware of the Rebel reinforcements.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Dave Powell
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
      --
      > > > ------
      > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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      > > > of
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      > > >
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      > > >
      > >
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    • hartshje
      Tom H. & Tom Mix, I was able to find references to this in William Matter s, IF IT TAKES ALL SUMMER . Up until May 10th, Grant is communicating with
      Message 73 of 73 , Jan 30, 2004
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        Tom H. & Tom Mix,

        I was able to find references to this in William Matter's, "IF IT
        TAKES ALL SUMMER". Up until May 10th, Grant is communicating with
        Burnside's independent Ninth Corp via couriers, but beginning on May
        11th, the telegraph is being used. Horace Porter and Cyrus Comstock
        both seem to be keeping tabs on Burnside, and also may have been
        reporting to Grant over the telegraph behind Burnside's back. I
        haven't found any mention of using the telegraph to communicate with
        the various corps of the AotP, at least at Spottsylvania.

        Thanks for pointing me to an interesting study (and new for me). I
        guess we had best drop it here, though, as that is E.T.

        Joe

        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Thomas A Hardy <thardy9@j...>
        wrote:
        > Joe,
        >
        > I seem to recall that Grant used a telegraph system at
        Spotsylvania.
        > Believe he continued to use it throughout the campaign. Believe
        Horace
        > Porter's memoir, Campaigning With Grant, talks about it.
        >
        > Too much confusion and too early in the campaign to set up in the
        > Wilderness.
        >
        > Tom H
        >
        > P.S. Of course, Porter was a transplant from the Army of the
        Cumberland.
        > He worked for Grant at Chattanooga and then went east with him in
        1864.
        >
        >
        >
        > On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 01:10:39 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@a...>
        writes:
        > > Tom Mix,
        > >
        > > I'm not arguing with what you say here about Grant, but just
        > > recently
        > > I read Gordon Rhea's book on the Wilderness, and there was
        nothing
        > > in
        > > there about Grant using telegraph lines on the battlefield. If
        > > anything, the communications in the Wilderness were nothing but
        > > slow-
        > > motion mass confusion.
        > >
        > > Joe
        > >
        > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
        > > > Note regarding communications: at Chancellorsville Hooker tried
        to
        > >
        > > use
        > > > an early version of the telephone designed by the French. It
        > > failed
        > > > badly. Also, Grant always established telegraph lines ASAP. I
        have
        > >
        > > said
        > > > that he would be the type to carry a Lap Top PC under his arm
        at
        > > all
        > > > times today. Tom M.
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
        > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 11:50 AM
        > > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Chickamauga Battle Stats - The
        > > Breakthrough
        > > >
        > > > Tom,
        > > >
        > > > You are correct, of course. However, this topic started
        because
        > >
        > > > somebody (I forget who now), was trying to make Rosecrans out
        to
        > > be
        > > > less culpable in shifting his brigades and divisions pell mell
        all
        > >
        > > > over the battlefield by saying he didn't know Longstreet's
        troops
        > >
        > > > were on the scene, insinuating that he couldn't have known a
        > > > significant enemy force was available to hit his right, when
        > > Thomas
        > > > had his hands so full on the left for two days.
        > > >
        > > > I believe that on the night of the 19th, or morning of the
        20th
        > > > Thomas suggested withdrawing the right back to the higher (and
        > > > shorter) line of Horseshoe Ridge. Rosecrans decided against
        that,
        > >
        > > > even though he already had good reason to believe that troops
        from
        > >
        > > > Longstreet's corp were in fact on the field.
        > > >
        > > > The use of the telegraph was pretty remarkable for the time.
        Do
        > > you
        > > > know if it was employed in later battles? (I'm thinking of
        > > battles
        > > > of maneuver, not something like the seige lines of Petersburg.)
        > > >
        > > > Joe
        > > >
        > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Thomas A Hardy
        <thardy9@j...>
        > >
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > Time to weigh in, as I know a bit about this.
        > > > >
        > > > > In a telegram sent about two weeks before the battle, Halleck
        > > told
        > > > > Rosecrans that Longstreet was still in Virginia. At the
        time,
        > > > Longstreet
        > > > > and the boys had been gone about a week.
        > > > >
        > > > > So, yes, Rosecrans had been told that Longstreet was still in
        > > > Virginia.
        > > > > And yes, he did assume that he would be informed if there was
        an
        > >
        > > > update
        > > > > on that information.
        > > > >
        > > > > Remember that he had constant telegraphic communication
        between
        > >
        > > his
        > > > HQ
        > > > > and Chattanooga. They even ran a line between Army HQ and
        the
        > > > Corps HQs
        > > > > during the battle (rather remarkable, if you think about it).
        > > > >
        > > > > Tom Hardy
        > > > > Kansas City
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:18:42 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@a...>
        > > > writes:
        > > > > > Kevin,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I think that regardless of what Washington may have or may
        > > not
        > > > have
        > > > > >
        > > > > > confirmed to Rosecrans about Longstreet's move, he
        definitely
        > >
        > > > knew
        > > > > > by
        > > > > > the afternoon of the 19th that troops from Longstreet's
        corp
        > > were
        > > > on
        > > > > >
        > > > > > the battlefield.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Joe
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, thecoys@k... wrote:
        > > > > > > I'm trying to catch up here....
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Wasn't one of the reasons that Rosecrans doubted the
        arrival
        > >
        > > of
        > > > > > > Longstreet's Corps was because Washington, i.e.
        > > > Stanton/Halleck,
        > > > > > > repeatedly told Rosy that it wasn't true? According to
        > > > Washington
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > Longstreet was still in Virginia.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Kevin S. Coy
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > DPowell334@A... wrote:
        > > > > > > > On the 18th, Wilder and Minty both reported that Bragg
        was
        > >
        > > > being
        > > > > >
        > > > > > heavily
        > > > > > > > reinforced, and Minty reported the presence of ANV
        troops.
        > >
        > > > > > Rosecrans and
        > > > > > > > Crittenden felt that these reports were not correct.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > On the 19th, prisoners were brought to Rosecrans from
        > > Hood's
        > > > > > Corps, and
        > > > > > > > at one point Rosecrans verbally dressed down a Rebel
        for
        > > > > > claiming
        > > > > > he was
        > > > > > > > from the ANV:)
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > However, I think everyone accepted the idea by the
        morning
        > >
        > > of
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > 20th.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > This information spread like wildfire through the army,
        > > BTW.
        > > > I
        > > > > > have
        > > > > > > > copies of letters written as early as the morning of
        the
        > > 20th
        > > > > > that talk
        > > > > > > > about Longstreet, and by the 24th or so, everyone was
        > > writing
        > > > > > home
        > > > > > > > claiming that they had fought 2-3 times their number of
        > > > Rebels,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > from
        > > > > > > > Mississippi and Virginia.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Rosecrans spent an unusually sleepless and worry-filled
        > > night
        > > > on
        > > > > >
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > 19-20th, even for him. One newspaper account describes
        him
        > >
        > > in
        > > > a
        > > > > >
        > > > > > rare
        > > > > > > > moment, when he was all alone in front of the fire, as
        > > > looking
        > > > > > so
        > > > > > > > careworn and stressed as to be near tears. I am certain
        > > that
        > > > by
        > > > > >
        > > > > > then, he
        > > > > > > > was aware of the Rebel reinforcements.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Dave Powell
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
        > > --
        > > > > > ------
        > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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        Yahoo!
        > > > Terms
        > > > > > of
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