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Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

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  • Terry Johnston
    Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men. Terry
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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      Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men.

      Terry

      tmix wrote:

      Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every now and then. Slocum is never discussed.  Tom Mix

      -----Original Message-----
      From: tmix [mailto:tmix@...]
      Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:00 PM
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

      I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
      Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
      To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

      All,
      Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
      Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
      My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals... 
      1. P.G.T. Beauregard
      2. Edmund Kirby Smith
      Jim

    • pvtupscope
      I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary, for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent escape south to Baton Rouge.
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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        I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
        for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
        escape south to Baton Rouge.
      • tmix
        I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after Gettysburg, can t
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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          I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
          seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
          Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
          Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
          leader of the Civil War?

          I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
          for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
          escape south to Baton Rouge.






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        • hartshje
          Tom, As the E.T. is verbotten, I won t get into details. Slocum s overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has got to disqualify him
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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            Tom,

            As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
            overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
            got to disqualify him IMO.

            Joe

            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
            > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
            > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
            > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
            > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
            > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
            > Tom Mix
            >
          • tmix
            In Henry s defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be set up as the
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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              In Henry's defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great
              deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be
              set up as the next fall guy, he wanted to be sure of his orders and
              exactly what Meade wanted him to do. Was he being directed to change his
              responsibilities entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at
              once or piece miel? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
              Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he fought
              remarkably well, taking and holding Culp's Hill. Yes, his movement was
              delayed but not the results. The hill was not quite as open as is
              depicted in the movie "Gettysburg" despite what Tremble said. Should he
              have moved quicker: yes. But he did have a valid reason to delay. I
              believe he may have been the last Corps commander to be told of Meade's
              promotion. There was a lot of confusion in the upper ranks of the AoP.
              Remember, when Meade was awakened to be told of his responsibilities and
              asked to take the promotion, he thought he was about to be arrested. Can
              you imagine how Slocum felt when he was told to leave the flank open and
              move toward Gettysburg and away from the Harrisburg direction?
              Thus, under rated.
              Thanks, Tom M.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
              Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
              leader of the Civil War?

              Tom,

              As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
              overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
              got to disqualify him IMO.

              Joe

              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
              > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
              > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
              > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
              > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
              > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
              > Tom Mix
              >





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            • hartshje
              Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your nomination of
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                nomination of Beauregard.

                I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                but down. A lot this was his own doing. He matched Jeff D. for
                snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                (or his writing hand still). Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                when he really had good ideas. But on the battlefield under pressure
                he did a pretty good job. When he first came to the west, he
                immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                wouldn't listen.

                I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                Joe H.

                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                > All,
                >
                > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                >
                > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                military leader of the Civil War?
                >
                > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                >
                > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                >
                > Jim
              • hartshje
                ... AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET? JOE ... rated ... has
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                  > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                  > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                  > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                  AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                  AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                  JOE

                  > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                  > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                  > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                  > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                  > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                  > fought remarkably well . . .
                  > Thanks, Tom M.
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                  > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                  > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                  rated
                  > leader of the Civil War?
                  >
                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                  > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                  has
                  > got to disqualify him IMO.
                  >
                  > Joe
                  >
                  > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                  > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                  > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                  > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                  > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                  > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                  > > Tom Mix
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
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                • carole d hanson
                  If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                    If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                     
                    On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                    Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                    have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                    nomination of Beauregard.

                    I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                    but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                    snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                    (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                    submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                    when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                    he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                    immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                    wouldn't listen. 

                    I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                    But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                    Joe H.

                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                    <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                    > All,
                    >
                    > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                    >
                    > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                    military leader of the Civil War?
                    >
                    > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                    >
                    > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                    > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                    >
                    > Jim


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                  • tmix
                    He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact time of this is
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                      He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his
                      first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact
                      time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death so he
                      assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                      confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                      reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                      3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock was now
                      in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile or two
                      from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance on
                      the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that direction,
                      which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other division
                      was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to what
                      the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they read
                      it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                      Brenner's Hill.
                      Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                      assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                      senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to turn
                      command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was awaiting
                      some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by the
                      possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                      Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                      that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                      according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present. Being
                      one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was present
                      to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum knew
                      how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the confusion for
                      others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions were on
                      the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                      arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command. At
                      this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move on
                      Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was now
                      the over all commander.
                      Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac. As
                      the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his corps
                      (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                      with limited visibility.
                      Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                      leader of the Civil War?

                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                      > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                      > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                      > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                      AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                      AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                      JOE

                      > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                      > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                      > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                      > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                      > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                      > fought remarkably well . . .
                      > Thanks, Tom M.
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                      > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                      > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                      rated
                      > leader of the Civil War?
                      >
                      > Tom,
                      >
                      > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                      > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                      has
                      > got to disqualify him IMO.
                      >
                      > Joe
                      >
                      > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                      > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                      > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                      > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                      > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                      > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                      > > Tom Mix
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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                    • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                      Tom, I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is overshadowed
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                        Tom,

                        I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was
                        impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                        overshadowed by others.

                        Jim


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                        To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                        Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                        leader of the Civil War?


                        > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                        > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                        > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                        > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                        > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                        > leader of the Civil War?
                        >
                        > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                        > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                        > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
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                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                        >
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                        >
                      • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                        Carol, I think part of Beauregard s problem was that there was a lot of bad blood between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                          Carol,
                           
                          I think part of Beauregard's problem was that there was a lot of "bad blood" between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to the time when Davis was Secretary of War... maybe as far as the Mexican War. If Davis said "white", Beuregard would say "black" simply from reflex, and vise-versa. Davis would not use Beauregard to his potential for the same reason.
                           
                          Jim
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:16 AM
                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                          If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                           
                          On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                          Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                          have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                          nomination of Beauregard.

                          I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                          but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                          snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                          (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                          submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                          when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                          he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                          immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                          wouldn't listen. 

                          I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                          But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                          Joe H.

                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                          <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                          > All,
                          >
                          > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                          >
                          > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                          military leader of the Civil War?
                          >
                          > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                          >
                          > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                          > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                          >
                          > Jim




                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                        • tmix
                          So true, so true, so true...Tom M. ... From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@rol.ru] Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM To:
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                            So true, so true, so true...Tom M.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                            Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                            rated leader of the Civil War?

                            Tom,

                            I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career
                            was
                            impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                            overshadowed by others.

                            Jim


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                            To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                            rated
                            leader of the Civil War?


                            > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                            > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                            > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                            > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                            > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                            > leader of the Civil War?
                            >
                            > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                            > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                            > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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                            >




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                          • ron
                            Don t know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA. ... From: Norris Darrall Reply-To:
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                              Don't know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA.

                              ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                              From: "Norris Darrall" <norrisdarrall@...>
                              Reply-To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:22:52 -0000

                              ><html><body>
                              >
                              >
                              ><tt>
                              >--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <BR>
                              ><nkitav@r...> wrote:<BR>
                              ><BR>
                              >> <BR>
                              >> Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed <BR>
                              >military leader of the Civil War?<BR>
                              >> <BR>
                              ><BR>
                              >My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea <BR>
                              >Ridge, commanded three Departments in the Trans-Mississippi, checked <BR>
                              >Price's Raid in 64, and died the day after Christmas in '66 before he <BR>
                              >could write a whole lot.<BR>
                              ><BR>
                              >Norris<BR>
                              ><BR>
                              ></tt>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              ><br>
                              ><tt><hr width="500">
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                              >
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                            • hartshje
                              Sorry Tom, Hope you feel better now. Didn t mean to ruffle your feathers. We really can t discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to the books
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Sorry Tom,

                                Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                Joe H.

                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                his
                                > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                exact
                                > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                so he
                                > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                was now
                                > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                or two
                                > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                on
                                > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                direction,
                                > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                division
                                > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                what
                                > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                read
                                > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                > Brenner's Hill.
                                > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                turn
                                > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                awaiting
                                > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                the
                                > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                Being
                                > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                present
                                > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                knew
                                > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                confusion for
                                > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                were on
                                > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                At
                                > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                on
                                > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                now
                                > the over all commander.
                                > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                As
                                > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                corps
                                > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                > with limited visibility.
                                > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                rated
                                > leader of the Civil War?
                                >
                                > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                >
                                > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                >
                                > JOE
                                >
                                > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                > rated
                                > > leader of the Civil War?
                                > >
                                > > Tom,
                                > >
                                > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                > has
                                > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                > >
                                > > Joe
                                > >
                                > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                every
                                > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                > > > Tom Mix
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                > >
                                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > >
                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • tmix
                                Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some research. Tom M. ... From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 03,
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 3, 2004
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                                  Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some
                                  research. Tom M.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                                  Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 12:41 AM
                                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                  leader of the Civil War?

                                  Sorry Tom,

                                  Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                  really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                  the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                  Joe H.

                                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                  > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                  his
                                  > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                  exact
                                  > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                  so he
                                  > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                  > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                  > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                  > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                  was now
                                  > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                  or two
                                  > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                  on
                                  > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                  direction,
                                  > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                  division
                                  > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                  what
                                  > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                  read
                                  > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                  > Brenner's Hill.
                                  > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                  > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                  > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                  turn
                                  > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                  awaiting
                                  > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                  the
                                  > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                  > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                  > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                  > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                  Being
                                  > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                  present
                                  > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                  knew
                                  > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                  confusion for
                                  > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                  were on
                                  > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                  > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                  At
                                  > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                  on
                                  > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                  now
                                  > the over all commander.
                                  > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                  As
                                  > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                  corps
                                  > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                  > with limited visibility.
                                  > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                  > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                  > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                  rated
                                  > leader of the Civil War?
                                  >
                                  > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                  > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                  > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                  > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                  >
                                  > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                  > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                  >
                                  > JOE
                                  >
                                  > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                  > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                  > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                  > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                  > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                  > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                  > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                  > >
                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                  > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                  > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                  > rated
                                  > > leader of the Civil War?
                                  > >
                                  > > Tom,
                                  > >
                                  > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                  > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                  > has
                                  > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                  > >
                                  > > Joe
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                  > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                  > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                  > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                  > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                  every
                                  > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                  > > > Tom Mix
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                  > >
                                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                  > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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