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Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

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  • Mary Hawthorne
    One more thing about Thomas is that as a Virginian he still wasn t trusted as well. Cleburne was a foreigner and hence no trust there as well. IMHO The press
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
      One more thing about Thomas is that as a Virginian he still wasn't trusted as well. Cleburne was a foreigner and hence no trust there as well. IMHO The press and the people back then did not want to make heros out of foreigners ( Cleburne) or, for the lack of a better term, "transplants from the South" (Thomas)
      Bluelady
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:02 AM
      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

      In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn't get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well.  On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was a great leader who wanted to win but didn't want to spill blood needlessly and was labeled as having a case of the slows which prevented people from recognizing his great ability.

      "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <nkitav@...> wrote:
      All,
       
      Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
       
      Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
       
      My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
       
      1. P.G.T. Beauregard
      2. Edmund Kirby Smith
       
      Jim



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    • tmix
      I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some. Tom M. ... From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004

        I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
        Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
        To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

         

        All,

         

        Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...

         

        Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?

         

        My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...

         

        1. P.G.T. Beauregard

        2. Edmund Kirby Smith

         

        Jim




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      • tmix
        Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004

          Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every now and then. Slocum is never discussed.  Tom Mix

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: tmix [mailto:tmix@...]
          Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:00 PM
          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

           

          I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
          Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
          To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

           

          All,

           

          Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...

           

          Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?

           

          My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...

           

          1. P.G.T. Beauregard

          2. Edmund Kirby Smith

           

          Jim

           


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        • Terry Johnston
          Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men. Terry
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
            Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men.

            Terry

            tmix wrote:

            Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every now and then. Slocum is never discussed.  Tom Mix

            -----Original Message-----
            From: tmix [mailto:tmix@...]
            Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:00 PM
            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

            I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
            Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
            To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

            All,
            Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
            Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
            My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals... 
            1. P.G.T. Beauregard
            2. Edmund Kirby Smith
            Jim

          • pvtupscope
            I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary, for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent escape south to Baton Rouge.
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
              I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
              for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
              escape south to Baton Rouge.
            • tmix
              I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after Gettysburg, can t
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                leader of the Civil War?

                I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                escape south to Baton Rouge.






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              • hartshje
                Tom, As the E.T. is verbotten, I won t get into details. Slocum s overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has got to disqualify him
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                  Tom,

                  As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                  overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
                  got to disqualify him IMO.

                  Joe

                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                  > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                  > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                  > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                  > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                  > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                  > Tom Mix
                  >
                • tmix
                  In Henry s defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be set up as the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                    In Henry's defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great
                    deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be
                    set up as the next fall guy, he wanted to be sure of his orders and
                    exactly what Meade wanted him to do. Was he being directed to change his
                    responsibilities entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at
                    once or piece miel? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                    Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he fought
                    remarkably well, taking and holding Culp's Hill. Yes, his movement was
                    delayed but not the results. The hill was not quite as open as is
                    depicted in the movie "Gettysburg" despite what Tremble said. Should he
                    have moved quicker: yes. But he did have a valid reason to delay. I
                    believe he may have been the last Corps commander to be told of Meade's
                    promotion. There was a lot of confusion in the upper ranks of the AoP.
                    Remember, when Meade was awakened to be told of his responsibilities and
                    asked to take the promotion, he thought he was about to be arrested. Can
                    you imagine how Slocum felt when he was told to leave the flank open and
                    move toward Gettysburg and away from the Harrisburg direction?
                    Thus, under rated.
                    Thanks, Tom M.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                    leader of the Civil War?

                    Tom,

                    As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                    overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
                    got to disqualify him IMO.

                    Joe

                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                    > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                    > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                    > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                    > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                    > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                    > Tom Mix
                    >





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                  • hartshje
                    Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your nomination of
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                      Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                      have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                      nomination of Beauregard.

                      I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                      but down. A lot this was his own doing. He matched Jeff D. for
                      snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                      (or his writing hand still). Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                      submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                      when he really had good ideas. But on the battlefield under pressure
                      he did a pretty good job. When he first came to the west, he
                      immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                      wouldn't listen.

                      I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                      But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                      Joe H.

                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                      <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                      > All,
                      >
                      > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                      >
                      > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                      military leader of the Civil War?
                      >
                      > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                      >
                      > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                      > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                      >
                      > Jim
                    • hartshje
                      ... AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET? JOE ... rated ... has
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                        > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                        > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                        > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                        AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                        AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                        JOE

                        > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                        > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                        > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                        > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                        > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                        > fought remarkably well . . .
                        > Thanks, Tom M.
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                        > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                        > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                        rated
                        > leader of the Civil War?
                        >
                        > Tom,
                        >
                        > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                        > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                        has
                        > got to disqualify him IMO.
                        >
                        > Joe
                        >
                        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                        > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                        > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                        > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                        > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                        > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                        > > Tom Mix
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • carole d hanson
                        If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                          If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                           
                          On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                          Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                          have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                          nomination of Beauregard.

                          I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                          but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                          snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                          (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                          submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                          when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                          he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                          immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                          wouldn't listen. 

                          I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                          But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                          Joe H.

                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                          <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                          > All,
                          >
                          > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                          >
                          > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                          military leader of the Civil War?
                          >
                          > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                          >
                          > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                          > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                          >
                          > Jim


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                        • tmix
                          He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact time of this is
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                            He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his
                            first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact
                            time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death so he
                            assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                            confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                            reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                            3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock was now
                            in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile or two
                            from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance on
                            the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that direction,
                            which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other division
                            was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to what
                            the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they read
                            it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                            Brenner's Hill.
                            Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                            assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                            senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to turn
                            command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was awaiting
                            some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by the
                            possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                            Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                            that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                            according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present. Being
                            one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was present
                            to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum knew
                            how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the confusion for
                            others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions were on
                            the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                            arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command. At
                            this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move on
                            Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was now
                            the over all commander.
                            Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac. As
                            the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his corps
                            (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                            with limited visibility.
                            Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                            leader of the Civil War?

                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                            > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                            > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                            > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                            AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                            AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                            JOE

                            > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                            > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                            > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                            > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                            > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                            > fought remarkably well . . .
                            > Thanks, Tom M.
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                            > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                            > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                            rated
                            > leader of the Civil War?
                            >
                            > Tom,
                            >
                            > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                            > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                            has
                            > got to disqualify him IMO.
                            >
                            > Joe
                            >
                            > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                            > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                            > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                            > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                            > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                            > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                            > > Tom Mix
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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                          • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                            Tom, I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is overshadowed
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                              Tom,

                              I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was
                              impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                              overshadowed by others.

                              Jim


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                              To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                              Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                              leader of the Civil War?


                              > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                              > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                              > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                              > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                              > leader of the Civil War?
                              >
                              > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                              > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                              > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
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                              > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
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                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
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                              >
                            • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                              Carol, I think part of Beauregard s problem was that there was a lot of bad blood between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
                                Carol,
                                 
                                I think part of Beauregard's problem was that there was a lot of "bad blood" between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to the time when Davis was Secretary of War... maybe as far as the Mexican War. If Davis said "white", Beuregard would say "black" simply from reflex, and vise-versa. Davis would not use Beauregard to his potential for the same reason.
                                 
                                Jim
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:16 AM
                                Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                                If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                                 
                                On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                                Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                                have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                                nomination of Beauregard.

                                I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                                but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                                snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                                (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                                submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                                when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                                he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                                immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                                wouldn't listen. 

                                I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                                But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                                Joe H.

                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                                <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                                > All,
                                >
                                > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                                >
                                > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                                military leader of the Civil War?
                                >
                                > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                                >
                                > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                                > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                                >
                                > Jim




                                Yahoo! Groups Links

                              • tmix
                                So true, so true, so true...Tom M. ... From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@rol.ru] Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM To:
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
                                  So true, so true, so true...Tom M.

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                                  Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM
                                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                  rated leader of the Civil War?

                                  Tom,

                                  I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career
                                  was
                                  impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                                  overshadowed by others.

                                  Jim


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                                  To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                  rated
                                  leader of the Civil War?


                                  > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                                  > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                                  > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                                  > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                                  > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                  > leader of the Civil War?
                                  >
                                  > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                                  > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                                  > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                  >
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                                • ron
                                  Don t know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA. ... From: Norris Darrall Reply-To:
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
                                    Don't know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA.

                                    ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                                    From: "Norris Darrall" <norrisdarrall@...>
                                    Reply-To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:22:52 -0000

                                    ><html><body>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ><tt>
                                    >--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <BR>
                                    ><nkitav@r...> wrote:<BR>
                                    ><BR>
                                    >> <BR>
                                    >> Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed <BR>
                                    >military leader of the Civil War?<BR>
                                    >> <BR>
                                    ><BR>
                                    >My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea <BR>
                                    >Ridge, commanded three Departments in the Trans-Mississippi, checked <BR>
                                    >Price's Raid in 64, and died the day after Christmas in '66 before he <BR>
                                    >could write a whole lot.<BR>
                                    ><BR>
                                    >Norris<BR>
                                    ><BR>
                                    ></tt>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ><br>
                                    ><tt><hr width="500">
                                    ><b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
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                                    ><li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/</a><br> 
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                                    >
                                    >
                                  • hartshje
                                    Sorry Tom, Hope you feel better now. Didn t mean to ruffle your feathers. We really can t discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to the books
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
                                      Sorry Tom,

                                      Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                      really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                      the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                      Joe H.

                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                      > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                      his
                                      > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                      exact
                                      > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                      so he
                                      > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                      > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                      > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                      > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                      was now
                                      > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                      or two
                                      > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                      on
                                      > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                      direction,
                                      > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                      division
                                      > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                      what
                                      > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                      read
                                      > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                      > Brenner's Hill.
                                      > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                      > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                      > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                      turn
                                      > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                      awaiting
                                      > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                      the
                                      > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                      > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                      > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                      > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                      Being
                                      > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                      present
                                      > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                      knew
                                      > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                      confusion for
                                      > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                      were on
                                      > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                      > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                      At
                                      > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                      on
                                      > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                      now
                                      > the over all commander.
                                      > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                      As
                                      > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                      corps
                                      > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                      > with limited visibility.
                                      > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                      > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                      > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                      rated
                                      > leader of the Civil War?
                                      >
                                      > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                      > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                      > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                      > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                      >
                                      > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                      > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                      >
                                      > JOE
                                      >
                                      > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                      > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                      > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                      > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                      > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                      > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                      > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                      > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                      > rated
                                      > > leader of the Civil War?
                                      > >
                                      > > Tom,
                                      > >
                                      > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                      > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                      > has
                                      > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                      > >
                                      > > Joe
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                      > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                      > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                      > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                      > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                      every
                                      > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                      > > > Tom Mix
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                      > >
                                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >
                                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                      >
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                                    • tmix
                                      Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some research. Tom M. ... From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 03,
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 3, 2004
                                        Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some
                                        research. Tom M.

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                                        Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 12:41 AM
                                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                        leader of the Civil War?

                                        Sorry Tom,

                                        Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                        really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                        the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                        Joe H.

                                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                        > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                        his
                                        > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                        exact
                                        > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                        so he
                                        > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                        > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                        > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                        > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                        was now
                                        > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                        or two
                                        > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                        on
                                        > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                        direction,
                                        > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                        division
                                        > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                        what
                                        > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                        read
                                        > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                        > Brenner's Hill.
                                        > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                        > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                        > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                        turn
                                        > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                        awaiting
                                        > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                        the
                                        > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                        > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                        > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                        > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                        Being
                                        > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                        present
                                        > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                        knew
                                        > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                        confusion for
                                        > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                        were on
                                        > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                        > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                        At
                                        > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                        on
                                        > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                        now
                                        > the over all commander.
                                        > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                        As
                                        > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                        corps
                                        > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                        > with limited visibility.
                                        > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                        > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                        > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                        rated
                                        > leader of the Civil War?
                                        >
                                        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                        > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                        > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                        > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                        >
                                        > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                        > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                        >
                                        > JOE
                                        >
                                        > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                        > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                        > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                        > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                        > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                        > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                        > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                        > >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                        > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                        > rated
                                        > > leader of the Civil War?
                                        > >
                                        > > Tom,
                                        > >
                                        > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                        > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                        > has
                                        > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                        > >
                                        > > Joe
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                        > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                        > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                        > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                        > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                        every
                                        > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                        > > > Tom Mix
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                        > >
                                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >
                                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                        >
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