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Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the C...

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  • SDE80@aol.com
    In a message dated 1/1/04 10:05:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Cleburne probably gets excessive acclaim these days. He was a fine division commander, and
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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      In a message dated 1/1/04 10:05:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, davidowens24@... writes:

      In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn't get his due


      Cleburne probably gets excessive acclaim these days.  He was a fine division commander, and was acknowledged to be that in his time. 

      Sam Elliott
    • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
      In a message dated 1/1/2004 7:35:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, nkitav@rol.ru writes: Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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        In a message dated 1/1/2004 7:35:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, nkitav@... writes:
        Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
         
        My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
         
        1. P.G.T. Beauregard
        2. Edmund Kirby Smith
         
        Jim
        My vote is split also with one Union and one Confederate
         
        1.  George Thomas
        2.  Alexander P. Stewart
         
        JEJ
      • david owens
        I tell ya a fellow that little is said of; Felix Kirk Zollicoffer. He was the first commander of East Tennessee Army. After he was killed at Mill Springs he
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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          I tell ya a fellow that little is said of; Felix Kirk Zollicoffer.  He was the first commander of East Tennessee Army. After he was killed at Mill Springs he was replaced by E. Kirby Smith.  Zollicoffer was killed early in the war so he is one of those what if generals (like-but to a lesser degree-Albert S. Johnson).  I have a copy of his orders book and from research on him find him to be very efficient in his command.  His only pre-war experience was as a lieut. in the Indian Wars in Florida.

          GnrlJEJohnston@... wrote:
          In a message dated 1/1/2004 7:35:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, nkitav@... writes:
          Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
           
          My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
           
          1. P.G.T. Beauregard
          2. Edmund Kirby Smith
           
          Jim
          My vote is split also with one Union and one Confederate
           
          1.  George Thomas
          2.  Alexander P. Stewart
           
          JEJ


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        • DORR64OVI@aol.com
          In a message dated 1/1/2004 11:42:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... I dont think Zollicoffer s record at Mill Springs qualifies him as an underated leader. Kent
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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            In a message dated 1/1/2004 11:42:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, davidowens24@... writes:

            I tell ya a fellow that little is said of; Felix Kirk Zollicoffer.  He was the first commander of East Tennessee Army. After he was killed at Mill Springs he was replaced by E. Kirby Smith.  Zollicoffer was killed early in the war so he is one of those what if generals (like-but to a lesser degree-Albert S. Johnson).  I have a copy of his orders book and from research on him find him to be very efficient in his command.  His only pre-war experience was as a lieut. in the Indian Wars in Florida.


            I dont think Zollicoffer's record at Mill Springs qualifies him as an underated leader.

            Kent Dorr
          • tmix
            I agree with you Sam. Pat Cleburne was fine division commander but he is not under rated. He gets his fair share of appropriate credit and he earned it. Tom
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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              I agree with you Sam. Pat Cleburne was fine division commander but he is not under rated. He gets his fair share of appropriate credit and he earned it. Tom Mix

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: SDE80@... [mailto:SDE80@...]
              Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:32 AM
              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the C...

               

              In a message dated 1/1/04 10:05:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, davidowens24@... writes:


              In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn't get his due



              Cleburne probably gets excessive acclaim these days.  He was a fine division commander, and was acknowledged to be that in his time. 

              Sam Elliott


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            • Norris Darrall
              ... an ... So understated. Norris
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, DORR64OVI@a... wrote:
                > In a message dated 1/1/2004 11:42:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                > davidowens24@y... writes:

                >
                > I dont think Zollicoffer's record at Mill Springs qualifies him as
                an
                > underated leader.
                >
                > Kent Dorr

                So understated.

                Norris
              • DPowell334@AOL.COM
                In a message dated 1/1/2004 12:06:07 PM Central Standard Time, ... And then some, perhaps. There are certain figures that are so heavily romanticized these
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                  In a message dated 1/1/2004 12:06:07 PM Central Standard Time, tmix@... writes:


                  I agree with you Sam. Pat Cleburne was fine division commander but he is not under rated. He gets his fair share of appropriate credit and he earned it. Tom Mix

                   






                  And then some, perhaps. There are certain figures that are so heavily romanticized these days that reality is hard to perceive. I have seen folks argue that Cleburne should have been given Corps, even army command in early 1863, when he was still a brigadier. in charge of a division.

                  Now, I will agree that Cleburne showed evidence, by the time of Missionary Ridge and after, that he would make a fine Corps commander - at one point he was in charge of 8 brigades, and that without benefit of subordinate divisional commanders. But I think he remained a cipher for Army command, despite the exuberent claims of his supporters.

                  Consider the opposite - had Hood died of his wounds at Chickamauga, I bet that we would have 100 years of literature bemoaning his untimely loss and how he would have been the Army commander who could have saved Atlanta, had he lived:) His experience at divisional and army command were pretty good up to then, even spectacular, given the breakthru at Chickamauga on the 20th.

                  Dave Powell
                • DPowell334@AOL.COM
                  In a message dated 1/1/2004 12:00:51 PM Central Standard Time, ... Sam Elliot s Book has largely convinced me that Alex P. Stewart is the guy for the South. In
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                    In a message dated 1/1/2004 12:00:51 PM Central Standard Time, tmix@... writes:


                    I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.




                    Sam Elliot's Book has largely convinced me that Alex P. Stewart is the guy for the South.

                    In the North, I'd like to nominate a couple of names, both of whom were involved in notorious 'incidents' that largely obscured the rest of their service - Jefferson C. Davis and Thomas J. Wood.

                    Dave Powell
                  • SDE80@aol.com
                    In a message dated 1/1/04 4:24:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Whenever anyone goes overboard on Cleburne, I enjoy posting the following from OR 38(5):892:
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                      In a message dated 1/1/04 4:24:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, DPowell334@... writes:

                      Now, I will agree that Cleburne showed evidence, by the time of Missionary Ridge and after, that he would make a fine Corps commander - at one point he was in charge of 8 brigades, and that without benefit of subordinate divisional commanders. But I think he remained a cipher for Army command, despite the exuberent claims of his supporters.



                      Whenever anyone goes overboard on Cleburne, I enjoy posting the following from OR 38(5):892:

                      ATLANTA, July 19, 1864.
                      JAMES A. SEDDON,
                      Secretary of War:
                      I need a commander for my old corps. I have assigned Major-General Cheatham to it, although he did not desire it. I have no major-general in that corps whom I deem Suitable for the position, and it was Hardee's opinion that Cheatham was the best man at my disposal, my corps commanders concurring also. It is my opinion that if the Department has no more fitting person in view and no strong objection thereto, that Major-General Mansfield Lovell might be assigned here for the purpose, to the great advantage of this army. If a lieutenant-general to be appointed and sent to me, I know of no one that I would prefer to Maj. Gen. Wade Hampton or S. D. Lee.
                      J. B. HOOD,
                      General.
                      -----

                      Note that it was Cleburne's sponsor Hardee who recommended Cheatham.

                      Thanks for your kind words re Stewart, Dave.   Recent historians seem to be doing better at giving him his due. 

                      Sam
                    • tmix
                      Sam, Stewart is beginning to get some of the credit due him but you started it all with your book. He was an excellent General as is your book. Tom Mix ...
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                        Sam,

                        Stewart is beginning to get some of the credit due him but you started it all with your book. He was an excellent General as is your book.  Tom Mix

                         

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: SDE80@... [mailto:SDE80@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 4:24 PM
                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the C...

                         

                        In a message dated 1/1/04 4:24:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, DPowell334@... writes:


                        Now, I will agree that Cleburne showed evidence, by the time of Missionary Ridge and after, that he would make a fine Corps commander - at one point he was in charge of 8 brigades, and that without benefit of subordinate divisional commanders. But I think he remained a cipher for Army command, despite the exuberent claims of his supporters.



                        Whenever anyone goes overboard on Cleburne, I enjoy posting the following from OR 38(5):892:

                        ATLANTA, July 19, 1864.
                        JAMES A. SEDDON,
                        Secretary of War:
                        I need a commander for my old corps. I have assigned Major-General Cheatham to it, although he did not desire it. I have no major-general in that corps whom I deem Suitable for the position, and it was Hardee's opinion that Cheatham was the best man at my disposal, my corps commanders concurring also. It is my opinion that if the Department has no more fitting person in view and no strong objection thereto, that Major-General Mansfield Lovell might be assigned here for the purpose, to the great advantage of this army. If a lieutenant-general to be appointed and sent to me, I know of no one that I would prefer to Maj. Gen. Wade Hampton or S. D. Lee.
                        J. B. HOOD,
                        General.
                        -----

                        Note that it was Cleburne's sponsor Hardee who recommended Cheatham.

                        Thanks for your kind words re Stewart, Dave.   Recent historians seem to be doing better at giving him his due. 

                        Sam


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                      • SDE80@aol.com
                        In a message dated 1/1/04 5:29:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... I m not sure it started with me, but I appreciate your kind words, Tom. Sam Elliott
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                          In a message dated 1/1/04 5:29:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, tmix@... writes:

                          Stewart is beginning to get some of the credit due him but you started it all with your book. He was an excellent General as is your book.  Tom Mix

                          I'm not sure it started with me, but I appreciate your kind words, Tom.

                          Sam Elliott
                        • LWhite64@aol.com
                          I agree about Cleburne, he does get a lot of attention, and could hardly be called under rated. I would go with AP Stewart and William Hazen. I would also
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                            I agree about Cleburne, he does get a lot of attention, and could hardly be called under rated.  I would go with AP Stewart and William Hazen.  I would also like to ask who everyone would say is over rated?  I would say WJ Hardee and NB Forrest.

                            Lee
                          • George Hall
                            What book is this? I m too new to know. Thanks. George ... ...
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                              What book is this? I'm too new to know. Thanks.
                              George

                              --- tmix <tmix@...> wrote:
                              > Sam,
                              >
                              > Stewart is beginning to get some of the credit due
                              > him but you started
                              > it all with your book. He was an excellent General
                              > as is your book. Tom
                              > Mix
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: SDE80@... [mailto:SDE80@...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 4:24 PM
                              > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was
                              > the most under rated
                              > leader of the C...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 1/1/04 4:24:37 PM Eastern
                              > Standard Time,
                              > DPowell334@... writes:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Now, I will agree that Cleburne showed evidence, by
                              > the time of
                              > Missionary Ridge and after, that he would make a
                              > fine Corps commander -
                              > at one point he was in charge of 8 brigades, and
                              > that without benefit of
                              > subordinate divisional commanders. But I think he
                              > remained a cipher for
                              > Army command, despite the exuberent claims of his
                              > supporters.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Whenever anyone goes overboard on Cleburne, I enjoy
                              > posting the
                              > following from OR 38(5):892:
                              >
                              > ATLANTA, July 19, 1864.
                              > JAMES A. SEDDON,
                              > Secretary of War:
                              > I need a commander for my old corps. I have assigned
                              > Major-General
                              > Cheatham to it, although he did not desire it. I
                              > have no major-general
                              > in that corps whom I deem Suitable for the position,
                              > and it was Hardee's
                              > opinion that Cheatham was the best man at my
                              > disposal, my corps
                              > commanders concurring also. It is my opinion that if
                              > the Department has
                              > no more fitting person in view and no strong
                              > objection thereto, that
                              > Major-General Mansfield Lovell might be assigned
                              > here for the purpose,
                              > to the great advantage of this army. If a
                              > lieutenant-general to be
                              > appointed and sent to me, I know of no one that I
                              > would prefer to Maj.
                              > Gen. Wade Hampton or S. D. Lee.
                              > J. B. HOOD,
                              > General.
                              > -----
                              >
                              > Note that it was Cleburne's sponsor Hardee who
                              > recommended Cheatham.
                              >
                              > Thanks for your kind words re Stewart, Dave.
                              > Recent historians seem to
                              > be doing better at giving him his due.
                              >
                              > Sam
                              >
                              > _____
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                              >
                              >
                              > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an
                              > email to:
                              > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              <mailto:civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > the Yahoo! Terms of
                              > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
                              >
                              >


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                            • carole d hanson
                              Since Sam is apparently too modest to post his literary accomplishments, I will. He has published two books: Soldier of Tennessee: General Alexander P.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                                Since Sam is apparently too modest to post his literary accomplishments, I will.  He has published two books: "Soldier of Tennessee: General Alexander P. Stewart and the Civil War in the West."  The softcover copy is being released in February, and there are hardcopy copies available through Amazon.  The other book is "Doctor Quintard, Chaplain CSA and Second Bishop of  Tennessee: The Memoir and Civil War Diary of Charles Todd Quintard which came out in hardcover in July 2003. Carole
                                 
                                On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 16:55:44 -0800 (PST) George Hall <preachergeorgewv@...> writes:
                                What book is this? I'm too new to know.  Thanks.
                                   George

                                --- tmix <tmix@...> wrote:
                                > Sam,
                                >
                                > Stewart is beginning to get some of the credit due
                                > him but you started
                                > it all with your book. He was an excellent General
                                > as is your book.  Tom
                                > Mix
                                >

                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: SDE80@... [mailto:SDE80@...]
                                > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 4:24 PM
                                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was
                                > the most under rated
                                > leader of the C...
                                >

                                >
                                > In a message dated 1/1/04 4:24:37 PM Eastern
                                > Standard Time,
                                > DPowell334@... writes:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Now, I will agree that Cleburne showed evidence, by
                                > the time of
                                > Missionary Ridge and after, that he would make a
                                > fine Corps commander -
                                > at one point he was in charge of 8 brigades, and
                                > that without benefit of
                                > subordinate divisional commanders. But I think he
                                > remained a cipher for
                                > Army command, despite the exuberent claims of his
                                > supporters.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Whenever anyone goes overboard on Cleburne, I enjoy
                                > posting the
                                > following from OR 38(5):892:
                                >
                                > ATLANTA, July 19, 1864.
                                > JAMES A. SEDDON,
                                > Secretary of War:
                                > I need a commander for my old corps. I have assigned
                                > Major-General
                                > Cheatham to it, although he did not desire it. I
                                > have no major-general
                                > in that corps whom I deem Suitable for the position,
                                > and it was Hardee's
                                > opinion that Cheatham was the best man at my
                                > disposal, my corps
                                > commanders concurring also. It is my opinion that if
                                > the Department has
                                > no more fitting person in view and no strong
                                > objection thereto, that
                                > Major-General Mansfield Lovell might be assigned
                                > here for the purpose,
                                > to the great advantage of this army. If a
                                > lieutenant-general to be
                                > appointed and sent to me, I know of no one that I
                                > would prefer to Maj.
                                > Gen. Wade Hampton or S. D. Lee.
                                > J. B. HOOD,
                                > General.
                                > -----
                                >
                                > Note that it was Cleburne's sponsor Hardee who
                                > recommended Cheatham.
                                >
                                > Thanks for your kind words re Stewart, Dave. 
                                > Recent historians seem to
                                > be doing better at giving him his due. 
                                >
                                > Sam
                                >
                                >   _____ 
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > *         To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                >  
                                >
                                > *         To unsubscribe from this group, send an
                                > email to:
                                > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                <mailto:civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                >
                                >  
                                >
                                > *         Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > the Yahoo! Terms of
                                > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Service.
                                >
                                >


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                              • DORR64OVI@aol.com
                                In a message dated 1/1/2004 4:28:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Dave...you are absolutely on target with both those choices, especially T.J. Wood. He is an
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                                  In a message dated 1/1/2004 4:28:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, DPowell334@... writes:

                                  In the North, I'd like to nominate a couple of names, both of whom were involved in notorious 'incidents' that largely obscured the rest of their service - Jefferson C. Davis and Thomas J. Wood.

                                  Dave Powell


                                  Dave...you are absolutely on target with both those choices, especially T.J. Wood.  He is an interesting individual and of course, carries the stigma of his petulant behavior at Chickamauga.  Anyone know anything of his postwar life?  Supposedly, he was involved in some shady business deal later but I dont know if this was true or part of the postwar memoir sniping among his peers.  I think hes buried at West Point.

                                  Kent Dorr
                                • DPowell334@AOL.COM
                                  In a message dated 1/1/2004 8:31:26 PM Central Standard Time, ... I know little of his post war career, except that he was on the board of Visitors at West
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                                    In a message dated 1/1/2004 8:31:26 PM Central Standard Time, DORR64OVI@... writes:

                                    Dave...you are absolutely on target with both those choices, especially T.J. Wood.  He is an interesting individual and of course, carries the stigma of his petulant behavior at Chickamauga.  Anyone know anything of his postwar life?  Supposedly, he was involved in some shady business deal later but I dont know if this was true or part of the postwar memoir sniping among his peers.  I think hes buried at West Point.

                                    Kent Dorr




                                    I know little of his post war career, except that he was on the board of Visitors at West Point, and is indeed buried there. I have a great deal of correspondence between him and Emerson Opdyke relating to his defense of his actions at Chickamauga, all of it very interesting in a CYA kinda way.

                                    Dave Powell
                                  • DORR64OVI@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 1/1/2004 9:41:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... I know he died in Dayton Ohio but somewhere I remember hearing or reading that he disappeared
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jan 1, 2004
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                                      In a message dated 1/1/2004 9:41:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, DPowell334@... writes:

                                      I know little of his post war career, except that he was on the board of Visitors at West Point, and is indeed buried there. I have a great deal of correspondence between him and Emerson Opdyke relating to his defense of his actions at Chickamauga, all of it very interesting in a CYA kinda way.

                                      Dave Powell


                                      I know he died in Dayton Ohio but somewhere I remember hearing or reading that he disappeared for a time following a bad business deal or fraud.  I think this information was offered by a fellow officer postwar who was making a point about Wood's character.
                                          My memory (or lack) tells me that both Wood and Opdycke were in agreement about Chickamauga but others disputed their version.  Id be interested to read the correspondence, if available.

                                      Kent Dorr

                                      BTW, is anyone familar with the recent book of Opdykes writings?
                                    • GnrlJEJohnston@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 1/1/2004 9:41:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, DPowell334@AOL.COM writes: I know little of his post war career, except that he was on the board
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                        In a message dated 1/1/2004 9:41:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, DPowell334@... writes:
                                        I know little of his post war career, except that he was on the board of Visitors at West Point, and is indeed buried there. I have a great deal of correspondence between him and Emerson Opdyke relating to his defense of his actions at Chickamauga, all of it very interesting in a CYA kinda way.
                                        He was active in Officers of the Commandery-In-Chief as Vice Commander for Ohio between 1889 -1893.  Wood testified before the House of Representatives on January 28, 1867, about his experiences as Military Commander of the “Department” of Missisisipi, and about conditions there during the Reconstruction.  Other than that, not too much is found.
                                         
                                        JEJ.  
                                      • DPowell334@AOL.COM
                                        In a message dated 1/1/2004 9:31:51 PM Central Standard Time, ... Opdyke s Wartime correspondence has just been published. The papers are at the Ohio
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                          In a message dated 1/1/2004 9:31:51 PM Central Standard Time, DORR64OVI@... writes:

                                          I know he died in Dayton Ohio but somewhere I remember hearing or reading that he disappeared for a time following a bad business deal or fraud.  I think this information was offered by a fellow officer postwar who was making a point about Wood's character.
                                             My memory (or lack) tells me that both Wood and Opdycke were in agreement about Chickamauga but others disputed their version.  Id be interested to read the correspondence, if available.



                                          Opdyke's Wartime correspondence has just been published. The papers are at the Ohio Historical Society, and on microfilm, so you can ILL them if you want. The Ohio Historical society lends at $3 per reel.

                                          As a member of Wood's division, Opdyke was very sympathetic to Wood's cause. After the war Rosecrans and his partisans tried to pin the blame on Wood for obeying the order. Wood, naturally enough, refused to take the blame. Wood wrote to Opdyke a lot about Mollus matters and such, and several times they discussed the Order in their correspondance. Frankly, I was surprised and happy to see how much of Wood's side of the story emerges in Opdyke's Papers.

                                          There is also supposed to be a speech given by Wood at USMA that casts some light on the order, but I have never found that.

                                          Dave Powell
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