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Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

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  • david owens
    In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn t get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well. On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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      In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn't get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well.  On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was a great leader who wanted to win but didn't want to spill blood needlessly and was labeled as having a case of the slows which prevented people from recognizing his great ability.

      "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <nkitav@...> wrote:
      All,
       
      Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
       
      Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
       
      My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
       
      1. P.G.T. Beauregard
      2. Edmund Kirby Smith
       
      Jim



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    • Mary Hawthorne
      One more thing about Thomas is that as a Virginian he still wasn t trusted as well. Cleburne was a foreigner and hence no trust there as well. IMHO The press
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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        One more thing about Thomas is that as a Virginian he still wasn't trusted as well. Cleburne was a foreigner and hence no trust there as well. IMHO The press and the people back then did not want to make heros out of foreigners ( Cleburne) or, for the lack of a better term, "transplants from the South" (Thomas)
        Bluelady
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:02 AM
        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

        In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn't get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well.  On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was a great leader who wanted to win but didn't want to spill blood needlessly and was labeled as having a case of the slows which prevented people from recognizing his great ability.

        "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <nkitav@...> wrote:
        All,
         
        Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
         
        Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
         
        My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
         
        1. P.G.T. Beauregard
        2. Edmund Kirby Smith
         
        Jim



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      • tmix
        I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some. Tom M. ... From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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          I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
          Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
          To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

           

          All,

           

          Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...

           

          Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?

           

          My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...

           

          1. P.G.T. Beauregard

          2. Edmund Kirby Smith

           

          Jim




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        • tmix
          Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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            Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every now and then. Slocum is never discussed.  Tom Mix

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: tmix [mailto:tmix@...]
            Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:00 PM
            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

             

            I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
            Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
            To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

             

            All,

             

            Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...

             

            Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?

             

            My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...

             

            1. P.G.T. Beauregard

            2. Edmund Kirby Smith

             

            Jim

             


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          • Terry Johnston
            Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men. Terry
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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              Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men.

              Terry

              tmix wrote:

              Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every now and then. Slocum is never discussed.  Tom Mix

              -----Original Message-----
              From: tmix [mailto:tmix@...]
              Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:00 PM
              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

              I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
              Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
              To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

              All,
              Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
              Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
              My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals... 
              1. P.G.T. Beauregard
              2. Edmund Kirby Smith
              Jim

            • pvtupscope
              I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary, for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent escape south to Baton Rouge.
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                escape south to Baton Rouge.
              • tmix
                I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after Gettysburg, can t
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                  I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                  seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                  Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                  leader of the Civil War?

                  I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                  for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                  escape south to Baton Rouge.






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                • hartshje
                  Tom, As the E.T. is verbotten, I won t get into details. Slocum s overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has got to disqualify him
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                    Tom,

                    As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                    overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
                    got to disqualify him IMO.

                    Joe

                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                    > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                    > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                    > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                    > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                    > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                    > Tom Mix
                    >
                  • tmix
                    In Henry s defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be set up as the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                      In Henry's defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great
                      deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be
                      set up as the next fall guy, he wanted to be sure of his orders and
                      exactly what Meade wanted him to do. Was he being directed to change his
                      responsibilities entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at
                      once or piece miel? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                      Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he fought
                      remarkably well, taking and holding Culp's Hill. Yes, his movement was
                      delayed but not the results. The hill was not quite as open as is
                      depicted in the movie "Gettysburg" despite what Tremble said. Should he
                      have moved quicker: yes. But he did have a valid reason to delay. I
                      believe he may have been the last Corps commander to be told of Meade's
                      promotion. There was a lot of confusion in the upper ranks of the AoP.
                      Remember, when Meade was awakened to be told of his responsibilities and
                      asked to take the promotion, he thought he was about to be arrested. Can
                      you imagine how Slocum felt when he was told to leave the flank open and
                      move toward Gettysburg and away from the Harrisburg direction?
                      Thus, under rated.
                      Thanks, Tom M.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                      leader of the Civil War?

                      Tom,

                      As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                      overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
                      got to disqualify him IMO.

                      Joe

                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                      > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                      > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                      > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                      > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                      > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                      > Tom Mix
                      >





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                    • hartshje
                      Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your nomination of
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                        Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                        have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                        nomination of Beauregard.

                        I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                        but down. A lot this was his own doing. He matched Jeff D. for
                        snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                        (or his writing hand still). Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                        submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                        when he really had good ideas. But on the battlefield under pressure
                        he did a pretty good job. When he first came to the west, he
                        immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                        wouldn't listen.

                        I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                        But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                        Joe H.

                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                        <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                        > All,
                        >
                        > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                        >
                        > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                        military leader of the Civil War?
                        >
                        > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                        >
                        > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                        > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                        >
                        > Jim
                      • hartshje
                        ... AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET? JOE ... rated ... has
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                          > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                          > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                          > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                          AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                          AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                          JOE

                          > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                          > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                          > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                          > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                          > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                          > fought remarkably well . . .
                          > Thanks, Tom M.
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                          > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                          > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                          rated
                          > leader of the Civil War?
                          >
                          > Tom,
                          >
                          > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                          > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                          has
                          > got to disqualify him IMO.
                          >
                          > Joe
                          >
                          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                          > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                          > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                          > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                          > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                          > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                          > > Tom Mix
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
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                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • carole d hanson
                          If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                            If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                             
                            On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                            Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                            have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                            nomination of Beauregard.

                            I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                            but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                            snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                            (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                            submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                            when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                            he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                            immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                            wouldn't listen. 

                            I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                            But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                            Joe H.

                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                            <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                            > All,
                            >
                            > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                            >
                            > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                            military leader of the Civil War?
                            >
                            > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                            >
                            > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                            > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                            >
                            > Jim


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                          • tmix
                            He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact time of this is
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                              He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his
                              first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact
                              time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death so he
                              assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                              confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                              reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                              3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock was now
                              in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile or two
                              from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance on
                              the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that direction,
                              which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other division
                              was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to what
                              the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they read
                              it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                              Brenner's Hill.
                              Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                              assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                              senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to turn
                              command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was awaiting
                              some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by the
                              possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                              Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                              that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                              according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present. Being
                              one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was present
                              to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum knew
                              how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the confusion for
                              others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions were on
                              the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                              arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command. At
                              this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move on
                              Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was now
                              the over all commander.
                              Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac. As
                              the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his corps
                              (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                              with limited visibility.
                              Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                              Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                              leader of the Civil War?

                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                              > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                              > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                              > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                              AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                              AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                              JOE

                              > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                              > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                              > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                              > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                              > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                              > fought remarkably well . . .
                              > Thanks, Tom M.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                              > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                              rated
                              > leader of the Civil War?
                              >
                              > Tom,
                              >
                              > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                              > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                              has
                              > got to disqualify him IMO.
                              >
                              > Joe
                              >
                              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                              > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                              > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                              > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                              > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                              > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                              > > Tom Mix
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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                            • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                              Tom, I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is overshadowed
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                                Tom,

                                I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was
                                impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                                overshadowed by others.

                                Jim


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                                To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                                Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                leader of the Civil War?


                                > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                                > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                                > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                                > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                > leader of the Civil War?
                                >
                                > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                                > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                                > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
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                              • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                                Carol, I think part of Beauregard s problem was that there was a lot of bad blood between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                  Carol,
                                   
                                  I think part of Beauregard's problem was that there was a lot of "bad blood" between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to the time when Davis was Secretary of War... maybe as far as the Mexican War. If Davis said "white", Beuregard would say "black" simply from reflex, and vise-versa. Davis would not use Beauregard to his potential for the same reason.
                                   
                                  Jim
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:16 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                                  If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                                   
                                  On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                                  Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                                  have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                                  nomination of Beauregard.

                                  I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                                  but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                                  snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                                  (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                                  submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                                  when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                                  he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                                  immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                                  wouldn't listen. 

                                  I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                                  But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                                  Joe H.

                                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                                  <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                                  > All,
                                  >
                                  > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                                  >
                                  > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                                  military leader of the Civil War?
                                  >
                                  > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                                  >
                                  > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                                  > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                                  >
                                  > Jim




                                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                                • tmix
                                  So true, so true, so true...Tom M. ... From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@rol.ru] Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM To:
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                    So true, so true, so true...Tom M.

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                                    Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM
                                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                    rated leader of the Civil War?

                                    Tom,

                                    I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career
                                    was
                                    impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                                    overshadowed by others.

                                    Jim


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                                    To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                    rated
                                    leader of the Civil War?


                                    > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                                    > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                                    > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                                    > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                                    > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                    > leader of the Civil War?
                                    >
                                    > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                                    > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                                    > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                  • ron
                                    Don t know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA. ... From: Norris Darrall Reply-To:
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                      Don't know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA.

                                      ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                                      From: "Norris Darrall" <norrisdarrall@...>
                                      Reply-To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:22:52 -0000

                                      ><html><body>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      ><tt>
                                      >--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <BR>
                                      ><nkitav@r...> wrote:<BR>
                                      ><BR>
                                      >> <BR>
                                      >> Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed <BR>
                                      >military leader of the Civil War?<BR>
                                      >> <BR>
                                      ><BR>
                                      >My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea <BR>
                                      >Ridge, commanded three Departments in the Trans-Mississippi, checked <BR>
                                      >Price's Raid in 64, and died the day after Christmas in '66 before he <BR>
                                      >could write a whole lot.<BR>
                                      ><BR>
                                      >Norris<BR>
                                      ><BR>
                                      ></tt>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      ><br>
                                      ><tt><hr width="500">
                                      ><b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                                      ><ul>
                                      ><li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/</a><br> 
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                                    • hartshje
                                      Sorry Tom, Hope you feel better now. Didn t mean to ruffle your feathers. We really can t discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to the books
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                        Sorry Tom,

                                        Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                        really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                        the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                        Joe H.

                                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                        > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                        his
                                        > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                        exact
                                        > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                        so he
                                        > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                        > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                        > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                        > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                        was now
                                        > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                        or two
                                        > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                        on
                                        > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                        direction,
                                        > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                        division
                                        > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                        what
                                        > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                        read
                                        > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                        > Brenner's Hill.
                                        > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                        > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                        > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                        turn
                                        > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                        awaiting
                                        > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                        the
                                        > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                        > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                        > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                        > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                        Being
                                        > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                        present
                                        > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                        knew
                                        > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                        confusion for
                                        > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                        were on
                                        > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                        > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                        At
                                        > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                        on
                                        > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                        now
                                        > the over all commander.
                                        > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                        As
                                        > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                        corps
                                        > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                        > with limited visibility.
                                        > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                        > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                        > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                        rated
                                        > leader of the Civil War?
                                        >
                                        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                        > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                        > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                        > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                        >
                                        > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                        > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                        >
                                        > JOE
                                        >
                                        > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                        > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                        > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                        > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                        > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                        > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                        > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                        > >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                        > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                        > rated
                                        > > leader of the Civil War?
                                        > >
                                        > > Tom,
                                        > >
                                        > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                        > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                        > has
                                        > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                        > >
                                        > > Joe
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                        > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                        > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                        > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                        > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                        every
                                        > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                        > > > Tom Mix
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                        > >
                                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >
                                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                        >
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                                      • tmix
                                        Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some research. Tom M. ... From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 03,
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 3, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some
                                          research. Tom M.

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                                          Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 12:41 AM
                                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                          leader of the Civil War?

                                          Sorry Tom,

                                          Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                          really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                          the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                          Joe H.

                                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                          > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                          his
                                          > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                          exact
                                          > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                          so he
                                          > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                          > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                          > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                          > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                          was now
                                          > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                          or two
                                          > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                          on
                                          > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                          direction,
                                          > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                          division
                                          > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                          what
                                          > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                          read
                                          > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                          > Brenner's Hill.
                                          > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                          > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                          > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                          turn
                                          > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                          awaiting
                                          > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                          the
                                          > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                          > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                          > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                          > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                          Being
                                          > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                          present
                                          > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                          knew
                                          > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                          confusion for
                                          > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                          were on
                                          > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                          > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                          At
                                          > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                          on
                                          > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                          now
                                          > the over all commander.
                                          > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                          As
                                          > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                          corps
                                          > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                          > with limited visibility.
                                          > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                          > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                          > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                          rated
                                          > leader of the Civil War?
                                          >
                                          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                          > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                          > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                          > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                          >
                                          > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                          > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                          >
                                          > JOE
                                          >
                                          > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                          > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                          > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                          > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                          > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                          > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                          > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                          > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                          > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                          > rated
                                          > > leader of the Civil War?
                                          > >
                                          > > Tom,
                                          > >
                                          > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                          > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                          > has
                                          > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                          > >
                                          > > Joe
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                          > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                          > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                          > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                          > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                          every
                                          > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                          > > > Tom Mix
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                          > >
                                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
                                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                          >
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