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Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

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  • Norris Darrall
    ... military leader of the Civil War? ... My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea Ridge, commanded three Departments in the
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
      <nkitav@r...> wrote:

      >
      > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
      military leader of the Civil War?
      >

      My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea
      Ridge, commanded three Departments in the Trans-Mississippi, checked
      Price's Raid in 64, and died the day after Christmas in '66 before he
      could write a whole lot.

      Norris
    • david owens
      In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn t get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well. On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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        In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn't get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well.  On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was a great leader who wanted to win but didn't want to spill blood needlessly and was labeled as having a case of the slows which prevented people from recognizing his great ability.

        "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <nkitav@...> wrote:
        All,
         
        Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
         
        Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
         
        My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
         
        1. P.G.T. Beauregard
        2. Edmund Kirby Smith
         
        Jim



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      • Mary Hawthorne
        One more thing about Thomas is that as a Virginian he still wasn t trusted as well. Cleburne was a foreigner and hence no trust there as well. IMHO The press
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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          One more thing about Thomas is that as a Virginian he still wasn't trusted as well. Cleburne was a foreigner and hence no trust there as well. IMHO The press and the people back then did not want to make heros out of foreigners ( Cleburne) or, for the lack of a better term, "transplants from the South" (Thomas)
          Bluelady
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:02 AM
          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

          In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn't get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well.  On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was a great leader who wanted to win but didn't want to spill blood needlessly and was labeled as having a case of the slows which prevented people from recognizing his great ability.

          "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <nkitav@...> wrote:
          All,
           
          Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
           
          Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
           
          My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
           
          1. P.G.T. Beauregard
          2. Edmund Kirby Smith
           
          Jim



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        • tmix
          I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some. Tom M. ... From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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            I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
            Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
            To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

             

            All,

             

            Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...

             

            Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?

             

            My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...

             

            1. P.G.T. Beauregard

            2. Edmund Kirby Smith

             

            Jim




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          • tmix
            Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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              Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every now and then. Slocum is never discussed.  Tom Mix

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: tmix [mailto:tmix@...]
              Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:00 PM
              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

               

              I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
              Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
              To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

               

              All,

               

              Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...

               

              Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?

               

              My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...

               

              1. P.G.T. Beauregard

              2. Edmund Kirby Smith

               

              Jim

               


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            • Terry Johnston
              Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men. Terry
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men.

                Terry

                tmix wrote:

                Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every now and then. Slocum is never discussed.  Tom Mix

                -----Original Message-----
                From: tmix [mailto:tmix@...]
                Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:00 PM
                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
                To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                All,
                Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
                My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals... 
                1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                Jim

              • pvtupscope
                I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary, for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent escape south to Baton Rouge.
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                  I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                  for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                  escape south to Baton Rouge.
                • tmix
                  I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after Gettysburg, can t
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                    I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                    seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                    Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                    leader of the Civil War?

                    I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                    for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                    escape south to Baton Rouge.






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                  • hartshje
                    Tom, As the E.T. is verbotten, I won t get into details. Slocum s overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has got to disqualify him
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                      Tom,

                      As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                      overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
                      got to disqualify him IMO.

                      Joe

                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                      > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                      > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                      > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                      > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                      > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                      > Tom Mix
                      >
                    • tmix
                      In Henry s defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be set up as the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                        In Henry's defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great
                        deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be
                        set up as the next fall guy, he wanted to be sure of his orders and
                        exactly what Meade wanted him to do. Was he being directed to change his
                        responsibilities entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at
                        once or piece miel? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                        Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he fought
                        remarkably well, taking and holding Culp's Hill. Yes, his movement was
                        delayed but not the results. The hill was not quite as open as is
                        depicted in the movie "Gettysburg" despite what Tremble said. Should he
                        have moved quicker: yes. But he did have a valid reason to delay. I
                        believe he may have been the last Corps commander to be told of Meade's
                        promotion. There was a lot of confusion in the upper ranks of the AoP.
                        Remember, when Meade was awakened to be told of his responsibilities and
                        asked to take the promotion, he thought he was about to be arrested. Can
                        you imagine how Slocum felt when he was told to leave the flank open and
                        move toward Gettysburg and away from the Harrisburg direction?
                        Thus, under rated.
                        Thanks, Tom M.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                        leader of the Civil War?

                        Tom,

                        As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                        overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
                        got to disqualify him IMO.

                        Joe

                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                        > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                        > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                        > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                        > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                        > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                        > Tom Mix
                        >





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                      • hartshje
                        Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your nomination of
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                          Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                          have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                          nomination of Beauregard.

                          I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                          but down. A lot this was his own doing. He matched Jeff D. for
                          snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                          (or his writing hand still). Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                          submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                          when he really had good ideas. But on the battlefield under pressure
                          he did a pretty good job. When he first came to the west, he
                          immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                          wouldn't listen.

                          I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                          But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                          Joe H.

                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                          <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                          > All,
                          >
                          > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                          >
                          > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                          military leader of the Civil War?
                          >
                          > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                          >
                          > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                          > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                          >
                          > Jim
                        • hartshje
                          ... AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET? JOE ... rated ... has
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                            > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                            > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                            > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                            AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                            AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                            JOE

                            > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                            > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                            > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                            > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                            > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                            > fought remarkably well . . .
                            > Thanks, Tom M.
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                            > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                            > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                            rated
                            > leader of the Civil War?
                            >
                            > Tom,
                            >
                            > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                            > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                            has
                            > got to disqualify him IMO.
                            >
                            > Joe
                            >
                            > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                            > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                            > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                            > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                            > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                            > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                            > > Tom Mix
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
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                          • carole d hanson
                            If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                              If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                               
                              On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                              Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                              have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                              nomination of Beauregard.

                              I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                              but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                              snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                              (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                              submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                              when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                              he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                              immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                              wouldn't listen. 

                              I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                              But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                              Joe H.

                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                              <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                              > All,
                              >
                              > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                              >
                              > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                              military leader of the Civil War?
                              >
                              > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                              >
                              > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                              > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                              >
                              > Jim


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                            • tmix
                              He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact time of this is
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                                He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his
                                first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact
                                time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death so he
                                assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock was now
                                in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile or two
                                from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance on
                                the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that direction,
                                which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other division
                                was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to what
                                the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they read
                                it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                Brenner's Hill.
                                Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to turn
                                command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was awaiting
                                some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by the
                                possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present. Being
                                one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was present
                                to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum knew
                                how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the confusion for
                                others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions were on
                                the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command. At
                                this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move on
                                Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was now
                                the over all commander.
                                Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac. As
                                the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his corps
                                (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                with limited visibility.
                                Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                                Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                leader of the Civil War?

                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                                AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                                JOE

                                > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                > fought remarkably well . . .
                                > Thanks, Tom M.
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                rated
                                > leader of the Civil War?
                                >
                                > Tom,
                                >
                                > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                has
                                > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                >
                                > Joe
                                >
                                > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                                > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                > > Tom Mix
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                >
                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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                              • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                                Tom, I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is overshadowed
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                                  Tom,

                                  I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was
                                  impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                                  overshadowed by others.

                                  Jim


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                                  To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                  leader of the Civil War?


                                  > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                                  > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                                  > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                                  > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                                  > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                  > leader of the Civil War?
                                  >
                                  > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                                  > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                                  > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                  >
                                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                  >
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                                  > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
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                                  >
                                • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                                  Carol, I think part of Beauregard s problem was that there was a lot of bad blood between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                    Carol,
                                     
                                    I think part of Beauregard's problem was that there was a lot of "bad blood" between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to the time when Davis was Secretary of War... maybe as far as the Mexican War. If Davis said "white", Beuregard would say "black" simply from reflex, and vise-versa. Davis would not use Beauregard to his potential for the same reason.
                                     
                                    Jim
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:16 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                                    If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                                     
                                    On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                                    Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                                    have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                                    nomination of Beauregard.

                                    I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                                    but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                                    snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                                    (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                                    submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                                    when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                                    he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                                    immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                                    wouldn't listen. 

                                    I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                                    But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                                    Joe H.

                                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                                    <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                                    > All,
                                    >
                                    > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                                    >
                                    > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                                    military leader of the Civil War?
                                    >
                                    > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                                    >
                                    > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                                    > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                                    >
                                    > Jim




                                    Yahoo! Groups Links

                                  • tmix
                                    So true, so true, so true...Tom M. ... From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@rol.ru] Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM To:
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      So true, so true, so true...Tom M.

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                                      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM
                                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                      rated leader of the Civil War?

                                      Tom,

                                      I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career
                                      was
                                      impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                                      overshadowed by others.

                                      Jim


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                                      To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                                      Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                      rated
                                      leader of the Civil War?


                                      > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                                      > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                                      > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                                      > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                                      > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                      > leader of the Civil War?
                                      >
                                      > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                                      > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                                      > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                      >
                                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                      >
                                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >




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                                    • ron
                                      Don t know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA. ... From: Norris Darrall Reply-To:
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                        Don't know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA.

                                        ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                                        From: "Norris Darrall" <norrisdarrall@...>
                                        Reply-To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:22:52 -0000

                                        ><html><body>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        ><tt>
                                        >--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <BR>
                                        ><nkitav@r...> wrote:<BR>
                                        ><BR>
                                        >> <BR>
                                        >> Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed <BR>
                                        >military leader of the Civil War?<BR>
                                        >> <BR>
                                        ><BR>
                                        >My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea <BR>
                                        >Ridge, commanded three Departments in the Trans-Mississippi, checked <BR>
                                        >Price's Raid in 64, and died the day after Christmas in '66 before he <BR>
                                        >could write a whole lot.<BR>
                                        ><BR>
                                        >Norris<BR>
                                        ><BR>
                                        ></tt>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        ><br>
                                        ><tt><hr width="500">
                                        ><b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                                        ><ul>
                                        ><li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/</a><br> 
                                        ><li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a href="mailto:civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br> 
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                                        >
                                        >
                                      • hartshje
                                        Sorry Tom, Hope you feel better now. Didn t mean to ruffle your feathers. We really can t discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to the books
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                          Sorry Tom,

                                          Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                          really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                          the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                          Joe H.

                                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                          > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                          his
                                          > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                          exact
                                          > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                          so he
                                          > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                          > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                          > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                          > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                          was now
                                          > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                          or two
                                          > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                          on
                                          > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                          direction,
                                          > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                          division
                                          > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                          what
                                          > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                          read
                                          > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                          > Brenner's Hill.
                                          > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                          > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                          > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                          turn
                                          > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                          awaiting
                                          > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                          the
                                          > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                          > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                          > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                          > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                          Being
                                          > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                          present
                                          > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                          knew
                                          > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                          confusion for
                                          > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                          were on
                                          > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                          > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                          At
                                          > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                          on
                                          > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                          now
                                          > the over all commander.
                                          > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                          As
                                          > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                          corps
                                          > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                          > with limited visibility.
                                          > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                          > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                          > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                          rated
                                          > leader of the Civil War?
                                          >
                                          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                          > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                          > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                          > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                          >
                                          > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                          > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                          >
                                          > JOE
                                          >
                                          > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                          > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                          > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                          > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                          > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                          > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                          > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                          > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                          > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                          > rated
                                          > > leader of the Civil War?
                                          > >
                                          > > Tom,
                                          > >
                                          > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                          > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                          > has
                                          > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                          > >
                                          > > Joe
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                          > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                          > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                          > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                          > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                          every
                                          > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                          > > > Tom Mix
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                          > >
                                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
                                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
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                                        • tmix
                                          Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some research. Tom M. ... From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 03,
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 3, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some
                                            research. Tom M.

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                                            Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 12:41 AM
                                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                            leader of the Civil War?

                                            Sorry Tom,

                                            Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                            really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                            the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                            Joe H.

                                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                            > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                            his
                                            > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                            exact
                                            > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                            so he
                                            > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                            > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                            > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                            > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                            was now
                                            > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                            or two
                                            > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                            on
                                            > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                            direction,
                                            > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                            division
                                            > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                            what
                                            > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                            read
                                            > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                            > Brenner's Hill.
                                            > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                            > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                            > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                            turn
                                            > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                            awaiting
                                            > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                            the
                                            > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                            > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                            > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                            > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                            Being
                                            > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                            present
                                            > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                            knew
                                            > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                            confusion for
                                            > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                            were on
                                            > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                            > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                            At
                                            > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                            on
                                            > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                            now
                                            > the over all commander.
                                            > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                            As
                                            > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                            corps
                                            > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                            > with limited visibility.
                                            > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                            > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                            > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                            rated
                                            > leader of the Civil War?
                                            >
                                            > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                            > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                            > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                            > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                            >
                                            > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                            > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                            >
                                            > JOE
                                            >
                                            > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                            > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                            > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                            > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                            > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                            > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                            > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                            > >
                                            > > -----Original Message-----
                                            > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                            > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                            > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                            > rated
                                            > > leader of the Civil War?
                                            > >
                                            > > Tom,
                                            > >
                                            > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                            > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                            > has
                                            > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                            > >
                                            > > Joe
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                            > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                            > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                            > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                            > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                            every
                                            > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                            > > > Tom Mix
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                            > >
                                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >
                                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                            >
                                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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