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Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

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  • virginia_cajun
    ... military leader of the Civil War? ... With the exception of his fine work defending Charleston and Petersburg, Beauregard s record has little to commend
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
      <nkitav@r...> wrote:
      > All,
      >
      > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
      >
      > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
      military leader of the Civil War?
      >
      > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
      >
      > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
      > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
      >
      > Jim

      With the exception of his fine work defending Charleston and
      Petersburg, Beauregard's record has little to commend it. That's
      tough for a fellow Louisianan to say, but that has been the verdict
      of history and the assessment of most Civil War historians. Kirby
      Smith was a walking disaster. His only shining moment was at First
      Manassas. He dragged Bragg into Kentucky and then refused to
      cooperate with him. Banished to the Trans-Mississippi, he had on
      blinders concerning the reconquest of Missouri and blew opportunities
      to strike strong blows against Union forces, particularly in the Red
      River Campaign of 1864.

      One of the most under recognized Confederate generals of high rank
      was Richard Taylor. He had his faults, but he learned the art of
      leadership under Stonewall Jackson and fought superbly during the
      Valley Campaign of 1862. Almost single-handedly, he saved his adopted
      state (LA) from being completely overrun and defeated a larger army
      during the Red River Campaign. Had it not been for Kirby Smith's
      bungling, he might have crushed Banks' army and forced the
      destruction of Porter's fleet on Red River. This would have at least
      delayed Union victory for a number of months.
    • Norris Darrall
      ... military leader of the Civil War? ... My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea Ridge, commanded three Departments in the
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
        <nkitav@r...> wrote:

        >
        > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
        military leader of the Civil War?
        >

        My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea
        Ridge, commanded three Departments in the Trans-Mississippi, checked
        Price's Raid in 64, and died the day after Christmas in '66 before he
        could write a whole lot.

        Norris
      • david owens
        In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn t get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well. On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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          In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn't get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well.  On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was a great leader who wanted to win but didn't want to spill blood needlessly and was labeled as having a case of the slows which prevented people from recognizing his great ability.

          "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <nkitav@...> wrote:
          All,
           
          Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
           
          Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
           
          My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
           
          1. P.G.T. Beauregard
          2. Edmund Kirby Smith
           
          Jim



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        • Mary Hawthorne
          One more thing about Thomas is that as a Virginian he still wasn t trusted as well. Cleburne was a foreigner and hence no trust there as well. IMHO The press
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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            One more thing about Thomas is that as a Virginian he still wasn't trusted as well. Cleburne was a foreigner and hence no trust there as well. IMHO The press and the people back then did not want to make heros out of foreigners ( Cleburne) or, for the lack of a better term, "transplants from the South" (Thomas)
            Bluelady
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:02 AM
            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

            In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn't get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well.  On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was a great leader who wanted to win but didn't want to spill blood needlessly and was labeled as having a case of the slows which prevented people from recognizing his great ability.

            "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <nkitav@...> wrote:
            All,
             
            Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
             
            Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
             
            My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
             
            1. P.G.T. Beauregard
            2. Edmund Kirby Smith
             
            Jim



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          • tmix
            I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some. Tom M. ... From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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              I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
              Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
              To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
              Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

               

              All,

               

              Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...

               

              Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?

               

              My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...

               

              1. P.G.T. Beauregard

              2. Edmund Kirby Smith

               

              Jim




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            • tmix
              Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every now and then. Slocum is never discussed.  Tom Mix

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: tmix [mailto:tmix@...]
                Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:00 PM
                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                 

                I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
                To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                 

                All,

                 

                Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...

                 

                Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?

                 

                My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...

                 

                1. P.G.T. Beauregard

                2. Edmund Kirby Smith

                 

                Jim

                 


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              • Terry Johnston
                Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men. Terry
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                  Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men.

                  Terry

                  tmix wrote:

                  Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every now and then. Slocum is never discussed.  Tom Mix

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: tmix [mailto:tmix@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:00 PM
                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                  I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
                  To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                  All,
                  Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                  Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
                  My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals... 
                  1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                  2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                  Jim

                • pvtupscope
                  I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary, for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent escape south to Baton Rouge.
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                    I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                    for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                    escape south to Baton Rouge.
                  • tmix
                    I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after Gettysburg, can t
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                      I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                      seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                      Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                      leader of the Civil War?

                      I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                      for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                      escape south to Baton Rouge.






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                    • hartshje
                      Tom, As the E.T. is verbotten, I won t get into details. Slocum s overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has got to disqualify him
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                        Tom,

                        As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                        overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
                        got to disqualify him IMO.

                        Joe

                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                        > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                        > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                        > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                        > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                        > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                        > Tom Mix
                        >
                      • tmix
                        In Henry s defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be set up as the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                          In Henry's defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great
                          deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be
                          set up as the next fall guy, he wanted to be sure of his orders and
                          exactly what Meade wanted him to do. Was he being directed to change his
                          responsibilities entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at
                          once or piece miel? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                          Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he fought
                          remarkably well, taking and holding Culp's Hill. Yes, his movement was
                          delayed but not the results. The hill was not quite as open as is
                          depicted in the movie "Gettysburg" despite what Tremble said. Should he
                          have moved quicker: yes. But he did have a valid reason to delay. I
                          believe he may have been the last Corps commander to be told of Meade's
                          promotion. There was a lot of confusion in the upper ranks of the AoP.
                          Remember, when Meade was awakened to be told of his responsibilities and
                          asked to take the promotion, he thought he was about to be arrested. Can
                          you imagine how Slocum felt when he was told to leave the flank open and
                          move toward Gettysburg and away from the Harrisburg direction?
                          Thus, under rated.
                          Thanks, Tom M.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                          leader of the Civil War?

                          Tom,

                          As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                          overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
                          got to disqualify him IMO.

                          Joe

                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                          > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                          > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                          > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                          > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                          > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                          > Tom Mix
                          >





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                        • hartshje
                          Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your nomination of
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                            Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                            have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                            nomination of Beauregard.

                            I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                            but down. A lot this was his own doing. He matched Jeff D. for
                            snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                            (or his writing hand still). Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                            submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                            when he really had good ideas. But on the battlefield under pressure
                            he did a pretty good job. When he first came to the west, he
                            immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                            wouldn't listen.

                            I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                            But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                            Joe H.

                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                            <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                            > All,
                            >
                            > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                            >
                            > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                            military leader of the Civil War?
                            >
                            > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                            >
                            > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                            > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                            >
                            > Jim
                          • hartshje
                            ... AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET? JOE ... rated ... has
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                              > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                              > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                              > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                              AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                              AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                              JOE

                              > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                              > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                              > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                              > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                              > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                              > fought remarkably well . . .
                              > Thanks, Tom M.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                              > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                              > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                              rated
                              > leader of the Civil War?
                              >
                              > Tom,
                              >
                              > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                              > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                              has
                              > got to disqualify him IMO.
                              >
                              > Joe
                              >
                              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                              > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                              > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                              > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                              > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                              > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                              > > Tom Mix
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
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                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            • carole d hanson
                              If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                                If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                                 
                                On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                                Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                                have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                                nomination of Beauregard.

                                I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                                but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                                snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                                (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                                submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                                when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                                he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                                immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                                wouldn't listen. 

                                I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                                But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                                Joe H.

                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                                <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                                > All,
                                >
                                > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                                >
                                > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                                military leader of the Civil War?
                                >
                                > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                                >
                                > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                                > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                                >
                                > Jim


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                              • tmix
                                He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact time of this is
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                                  He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his
                                  first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact
                                  time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death so he
                                  assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                  confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                  reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                  3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock was now
                                  in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile or two
                                  from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance on
                                  the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that direction,
                                  which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other division
                                  was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to what
                                  the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they read
                                  it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                  Brenner's Hill.
                                  Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                  assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                  senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to turn
                                  command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was awaiting
                                  some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by the
                                  possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                  Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                  that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                  according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present. Being
                                  one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was present
                                  to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum knew
                                  how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the confusion for
                                  others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions were on
                                  the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                  arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command. At
                                  this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move on
                                  Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was now
                                  the over all commander.
                                  Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac. As
                                  the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his corps
                                  (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                  with limited visibility.
                                  Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                                  Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                  leader of the Civil War?

                                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                  > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                  > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                  > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                                  AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                  AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                                  JOE

                                  > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                  > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                  > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                  > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                  > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                  > fought remarkably well . . .
                                  > Thanks, Tom M.
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                  > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                  > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                  rated
                                  > leader of the Civil War?
                                  >
                                  > Tom,
                                  >
                                  > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                  > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                  has
                                  > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                  >
                                  > Joe
                                  >
                                  > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                  > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                  > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                  > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                  > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                                  > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                  > > Tom Mix
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
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                                • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                                  Tom, I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is overshadowed
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
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                                    Tom,

                                    I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was
                                    impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                                    overshadowed by others.

                                    Jim


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                                    To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                    leader of the Civil War?


                                    > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                                    > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                                    > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                                    > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                                    > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                    > leader of the Civil War?
                                    >
                                    > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                                    > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                                    > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                    >
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                                    >
                                  • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                                    Carol, I think part of Beauregard s problem was that there was a lot of bad blood between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                      Carol,
                                       
                                      I think part of Beauregard's problem was that there was a lot of "bad blood" between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to the time when Davis was Secretary of War... maybe as far as the Mexican War. If Davis said "white", Beuregard would say "black" simply from reflex, and vise-versa. Davis would not use Beauregard to his potential for the same reason.
                                       
                                      Jim
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:16 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                                      If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                                       
                                      On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                                      Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                                      have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                                      nomination of Beauregard.

                                      I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                                      but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                                      snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                                      (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                                      submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                                      when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                                      he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                                      immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                                      wouldn't listen. 

                                      I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                                      But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                                      Joe H.

                                      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                                      <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                                      > All,
                                      >
                                      > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                                      >
                                      > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                                      military leader of the Civil War?
                                      >
                                      > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                                      >
                                      > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                                      > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                                      >
                                      > Jim




                                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                                    • tmix
                                      So true, so true, so true...Tom M. ... From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@rol.ru] Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM To:
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        So true, so true, so true...Tom M.

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                                        Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM
                                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                        rated leader of the Civil War?

                                        Tom,

                                        I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career
                                        was
                                        impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                                        overshadowed by others.

                                        Jim


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                                        To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                                        Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                        rated
                                        leader of the Civil War?


                                        > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                                        > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                                        > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                                        > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                                        > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                        > leader of the Civil War?
                                        >
                                        > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                                        > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                                        > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                        >
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                                        > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        >




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                                      • ron
                                        Don t know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA. ... From: Norris Darrall Reply-To:
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                          Don't know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA.

                                          ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                                          From: "Norris Darrall" <norrisdarrall@...>
                                          Reply-To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:22:52 -0000

                                          ><html><body>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          ><tt>
                                          >--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <BR>
                                          ><nkitav@r...> wrote:<BR>
                                          ><BR>
                                          >> <BR>
                                          >> Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed <BR>
                                          >military leader of the Civil War?<BR>
                                          >> <BR>
                                          ><BR>
                                          >My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea <BR>
                                          >Ridge, commanded three Departments in the Trans-Mississippi, checked <BR>
                                          >Price's Raid in 64, and died the day after Christmas in '66 before he <BR>
                                          >could write a whole lot.<BR>
                                          ><BR>
                                          >Norris<BR>
                                          ><BR>
                                          ></tt>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          ><br>
                                          ><tt><hr width="500">
                                          ><b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                                          ><ul>
                                          ><li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/</a><br> 
                                          ><li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a href="mailto:civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br> 
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                                          >
                                          >
                                        • hartshje
                                          Sorry Tom, Hope you feel better now. Didn t mean to ruffle your feathers. We really can t discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to the books
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
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                                            Sorry Tom,

                                            Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                            really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                            the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                            Joe H.

                                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                            > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                            his
                                            > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                            exact
                                            > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                            so he
                                            > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                            > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                            > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                            > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                            was now
                                            > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                            or two
                                            > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                            on
                                            > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                            direction,
                                            > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                            division
                                            > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                            what
                                            > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                            read
                                            > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                            > Brenner's Hill.
                                            > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                            > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                            > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                            turn
                                            > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                            awaiting
                                            > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                            the
                                            > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                            > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                            > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                            > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                            Being
                                            > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                            present
                                            > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                            knew
                                            > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                            confusion for
                                            > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                            were on
                                            > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                            > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                            At
                                            > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                            on
                                            > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                            now
                                            > the over all commander.
                                            > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                            As
                                            > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                            corps
                                            > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                            > with limited visibility.
                                            > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                            > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                            > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                            rated
                                            > leader of the Civil War?
                                            >
                                            > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                            > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                            > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                            > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                            >
                                            > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                            > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                            >
                                            > JOE
                                            >
                                            > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                            > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                            > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                            > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                            > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                            > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                            > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                            > >
                                            > > -----Original Message-----
                                            > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                            > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                            > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                            > rated
                                            > > leader of the Civil War?
                                            > >
                                            > > Tom,
                                            > >
                                            > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                            > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                            > has
                                            > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                            > >
                                            > > Joe
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                            > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                            > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                            > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                            > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                            every
                                            > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                            > > > Tom Mix
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                            > >
                                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >
                                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                          • tmix
                                            Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some research. Tom M. ... From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 03,
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jan 3, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some
                                              research. Tom M.

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                                              Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 12:41 AM
                                              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                              leader of the Civil War?

                                              Sorry Tom,

                                              Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                              really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                              the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                              Joe H.

                                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                              > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                              his
                                              > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                              exact
                                              > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                              so he
                                              > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                              > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                              > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                              > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                              was now
                                              > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                              or two
                                              > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                              on
                                              > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                              direction,
                                              > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                              division
                                              > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                              what
                                              > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                              read
                                              > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                              > Brenner's Hill.
                                              > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                              > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                              > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                              turn
                                              > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                              awaiting
                                              > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                              the
                                              > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                              > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                              > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                              > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                              Being
                                              > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                              present
                                              > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                              knew
                                              > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                              confusion for
                                              > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                              were on
                                              > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                              > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                              At
                                              > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                              on
                                              > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                              now
                                              > the over all commander.
                                              > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                              As
                                              > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                              corps
                                              > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                              > with limited visibility.
                                              > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                              > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                              > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                              rated
                                              > leader of the Civil War?
                                              >
                                              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                              > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                              > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                              > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                              >
                                              > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                              > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                              >
                                              > JOE
                                              >
                                              > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                              > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                              > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                              > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                              > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                              > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                              > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                              > >
                                              > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                              > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                              > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                              > rated
                                              > > leader of the Civil War?
                                              > >
                                              > > Tom,
                                              > >
                                              > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                              > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                              > has
                                              > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                              > >
                                              > > Joe
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                              > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                              > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                              > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                              > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                              every
                                              > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                              > > > Tom Mix
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > >
                                              > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                              > >
                                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > >
                                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                              >
                                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                              >
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