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NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

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  • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
    All, Here s a new question... We ve been bashing all of the bad ones... Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
      All,
       
      Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
       
      Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
       
      My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
       
      1. P.G.T. Beauregard
      2. Edmund Kirby Smith
       
      Jim
    • virginia_cajun
      ... military leader of the Civil War? ... With the exception of his fine work defending Charleston and Petersburg, Beauregard s record has little to commend
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
        <nkitav@r...> wrote:
        > All,
        >
        > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
        >
        > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
        military leader of the Civil War?
        >
        > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
        >
        > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
        > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
        >
        > Jim

        With the exception of his fine work defending Charleston and
        Petersburg, Beauregard's record has little to commend it. That's
        tough for a fellow Louisianan to say, but that has been the verdict
        of history and the assessment of most Civil War historians. Kirby
        Smith was a walking disaster. His only shining moment was at First
        Manassas. He dragged Bragg into Kentucky and then refused to
        cooperate with him. Banished to the Trans-Mississippi, he had on
        blinders concerning the reconquest of Missouri and blew opportunities
        to strike strong blows against Union forces, particularly in the Red
        River Campaign of 1864.

        One of the most under recognized Confederate generals of high rank
        was Richard Taylor. He had his faults, but he learned the art of
        leadership under Stonewall Jackson and fought superbly during the
        Valley Campaign of 1862. Almost single-handedly, he saved his adopted
        state (LA) from being completely overrun and defeated a larger army
        during the Red River Campaign. Had it not been for Kirby Smith's
        bungling, he might have crushed Banks' army and forced the
        destruction of Porter's fleet on Red River. This would have at least
        delayed Union victory for a number of months.
      • Norris Darrall
        ... military leader of the Civil War? ... My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea Ridge, commanded three Departments in the
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
          <nkitav@r...> wrote:

          >
          > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
          military leader of the Civil War?
          >

          My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea
          Ridge, commanded three Departments in the Trans-Mississippi, checked
          Price's Raid in 64, and died the day after Christmas in '66 before he
          could write a whole lot.

          Norris
        • david owens
          In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn t get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well. On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
            In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn't get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well.  On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was a great leader who wanted to win but didn't want to spill blood needlessly and was labeled as having a case of the slows which prevented people from recognizing his great ability.

            "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <nkitav@...> wrote:
            All,
             
            Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
             
            Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
             
            My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
             
            1. P.G.T. Beauregard
            2. Edmund Kirby Smith
             
            Jim



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          • Mary Hawthorne
            One more thing about Thomas is that as a Virginian he still wasn t trusted as well. Cleburne was a foreigner and hence no trust there as well. IMHO The press
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
              One more thing about Thomas is that as a Virginian he still wasn't trusted as well. Cleburne was a foreigner and hence no trust there as well. IMHO The press and the people back then did not want to make heros out of foreigners ( Cleburne) or, for the lack of a better term, "transplants from the South" (Thomas)
              Bluelady
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:02 AM
              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

              In the west I think Pat Cleburne was a great leader that didn't get his due and also E. Kirby Smith as well.  On the federal side I think George H. Thomas was a great leader who wanted to win but didn't want to spill blood needlessly and was labeled as having a case of the slows which prevented people from recognizing his great ability.

              "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <nkitav@...> wrote:
              All,
               
              Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
               
              Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
               
              My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
               
              1. P.G.T. Beauregard
              2. Edmund Kirby Smith
               
              Jim



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            • tmix
              I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some. Tom M. ... From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004

                I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
                To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                 

                All,

                 

                Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...

                 

                Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?

                 

                My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...

                 

                1. P.G.T. Beauregard

                2. Edmund Kirby Smith

                 

                Jim




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              • tmix
                Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004

                  Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every now and then. Slocum is never discussed.  Tom Mix

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: tmix [mailto:tmix@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:00 PM
                  To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                   

                  I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
                  To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                   

                  All,

                   

                  Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...

                   

                  Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?

                   

                  My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...

                   

                  1. P.G.T. Beauregard

                  2. Edmund Kirby Smith

                   

                  Jim

                   


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                • Terry Johnston
                  Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men. Terry
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                    Has anyone voted for Isaac Stevens yet? Not a western theatre guy, but a great leader of men.

                    Terry

                    tmix wrote:

                    Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum. It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every now and then. Slocum is never discussed.  Tom Mix

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: tmix [mailto:tmix@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 12:00 PM
                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                    I will have to cast a vote for Frank Cheatham. I may pick one for the North too but I need to think on that some.  Tom M.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:34 AM
                    To: Civil-War@yahoogroups.com
                    Cc: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com; StudyoftheCivilWar@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [civilwarwest] NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                    All,
                    Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                    Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed military leader of the Civil War?
                    My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals... 
                    1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                    2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                    Jim

                  • pvtupscope
                    I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary, for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent escape south to Baton Rouge.
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                      I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                      for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                      escape south to Baton Rouge.
                    • tmix
                      I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after Gettysburg, can t
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                        I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                        seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                        Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                        leader of the Civil War?

                        I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                        for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                        escape south to Baton Rouge.






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                      • hartshje
                        Tom, As the E.T. is verbotten, I won t get into details. Slocum s overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has got to disqualify him
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                          Tom,

                          As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                          overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
                          got to disqualify him IMO.

                          Joe

                          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                          > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                          > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                          > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                          > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                          > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                          > Tom Mix
                          >
                        • tmix
                          In Henry s defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be set up as the
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                            In Henry's defense, Meade had just gotten command, there was a great
                            deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders, Slocum did not want to be
                            set up as the next fall guy, he wanted to be sure of his orders and
                            exactly what Meade wanted him to do. Was he being directed to change his
                            responsibilities entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at
                            once or piece miel? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                            Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he fought
                            remarkably well, taking and holding Culp's Hill. Yes, his movement was
                            delayed but not the results. The hill was not quite as open as is
                            depicted in the movie "Gettysburg" despite what Tremble said. Should he
                            have moved quicker: yes. But he did have a valid reason to delay. I
                            believe he may have been the last Corps commander to be told of Meade's
                            promotion. There was a lot of confusion in the upper ranks of the AoP.
                            Remember, when Meade was awakened to be told of his responsibilities and
                            asked to take the promotion, he thought he was about to be arrested. Can
                            you imagine how Slocum felt when he was told to leave the flank open and
                            move toward Gettysburg and away from the Harrisburg direction?
                            Thus, under rated.
                            Thanks, Tom M.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                            Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                            leader of the Civil War?

                            Tom,

                            As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                            overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg has
                            got to disqualify him IMO.

                            Joe

                            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                            > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                            > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                            > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                            > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                            > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                            > Tom Mix
                            >





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                          • hartshje
                            Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your nomination of
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                              Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                              have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                              nomination of Beauregard.

                              I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                              but down. A lot this was his own doing. He matched Jeff D. for
                              snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                              (or his writing hand still). Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                              submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                              when he really had good ideas. But on the battlefield under pressure
                              he did a pretty good job. When he first came to the west, he
                              immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                              wouldn't listen.

                              I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                              But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                              Joe H.

                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                              <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                              > All,
                              >
                              > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                              >
                              > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                              military leader of the Civil War?
                              >
                              > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                              >
                              > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                              > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                              >
                              > Jim
                            • hartshje
                              ... AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET? JOE ... rated ... has
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                                AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                                JOE

                                > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                > fought remarkably well . . .
                                > Thanks, Tom M.
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                rated
                                > leader of the Civil War?
                                >
                                > Tom,
                                >
                                > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                has
                                > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                >
                                > Joe
                                >
                                > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                                > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                > > Tom Mix
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                >
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                              • carole d hanson
                                If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                                  If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                                   
                                  On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                                  Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                                  have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                                  nomination of Beauregard.

                                  I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                                  but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                                  snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                                  (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                                  submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                                  when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                                  he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                                  immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                                  wouldn't listen. 

                                  I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                                  But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                                  Joe H.

                                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                                  <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                                  > All,
                                  >
                                  > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                                  >
                                  > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                                  military leader of the Civil War?
                                  >
                                  > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                                  >
                                  > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                                  > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                                  >
                                  > Jim


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                                • tmix
                                  He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact time of this is
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                                    He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received his
                                    first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the exact
                                    time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death so he
                                    assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                    confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                    reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                    3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock was now
                                    in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile or two
                                    from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance on
                                    the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that direction,
                                    which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other division
                                    was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to what
                                    the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they read
                                    it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                    Brenner's Hill.
                                    Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                    assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                    senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to turn
                                    command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was awaiting
                                    some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by the
                                    possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                    Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                    that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                    according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present. Being
                                    one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was present
                                    to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum knew
                                    how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the confusion for
                                    others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions were on
                                    the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                    arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command. At
                                    this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move on
                                    Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was now
                                    the over all commander.
                                    Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac. As
                                    the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his corps
                                    (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                    with limited visibility.
                                    Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                                    Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                    To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                    leader of the Civil War?

                                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                    > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                    > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                    > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.

                                    AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                    AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?

                                    JOE

                                    > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                    > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                    > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                    > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                    > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                    > fought remarkably well . . .
                                    > Thanks, Tom M.
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                    > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                    > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                    rated
                                    > leader of the Civil War?
                                    >
                                    > Tom,
                                    >
                                    > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                    > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                    has
                                    > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                    >
                                    > Joe
                                    >
                                    > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                    > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                    > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                    > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                    > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned every
                                    > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                    > > Tom Mix
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                    >
                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
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                                  • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                                    Tom, I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is overshadowed
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 1, 2004
                                      Tom,

                                      I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career was
                                      impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                                      overshadowed by others.

                                      Jim


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                                      To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                                      Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                      leader of the Civil War?


                                      > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                                      > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                                      > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                                      > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                                      > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                      > leader of the Civil War?
                                      >
                                      > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                                      > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                                      > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                      >
                                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                      >
                                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
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                                      >
                                    • Lt. Col. James L. Choron
                                      Carol, I think part of Beauregard s problem was that there was a lot of bad blood between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
                                        Carol,
                                         
                                        I think part of Beauregard's problem was that there was a lot of "bad blood" between him and Jefferson Davis, and it went back well before the War, to the time when Davis was Secretary of War... maybe as far as the Mexican War. If Davis said "white", Beuregard would say "black" simply from reflex, and vise-versa. Davis would not use Beauregard to his potential for the same reason.
                                         
                                        Jim
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 10:16 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated leader of the Civil War?

                                        If General Good-looking had his mouth sewed shut except on the battlefield and his writing hand crippled as you have suggested, I agree he is underrated.  Though in his home state, he was always a hero. Carole
                                         
                                        On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 04:01:54 -0000 "hartshje" <Hartshje@...> writes:
                                        Well Jim, I have been reading through all these nominations others
                                        have submitted, but so far I think I am the only one who seconds your
                                        nomination of Beauregard.

                                        I think poor Bo suffered from starting at the top with no where to go
                                        but down.  A lot this was his own doing.  He matched Jeff D. for
                                        snooty pride, and didn't seem to know when to keep his big mouth shut
                                        (or his writing hand still).  Kind of like the boy who cried wolf, he
                                        submitted so many farfetched strategy schemes that no one listened
                                        when he really had good ideas.  But on the battlefield under pressure
                                        he did a pretty good job.  When he first came to the west, he
                                        immediately saw the need to reinforce Fts.Henry/Donelson, but ASJ
                                        wouldn't listen. 

                                        I'm not saying he should be ranked in the category of Grant, Lee, etc.
                                        But he is definitely much underrated (IMO).

                                        Joe H.

                                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron"
                                        <nkitav@r...> wrote:
                                        > All,
                                        >
                                        > Here's a new question... We've been bashing all of the bad ones...
                                        >
                                        > Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed
                                        military leader of the Civil War?
                                        >
                                        > My own vote is split... both are Confederate Generals...
                                        >
                                        > 1. P.G.T. Beauregard
                                        > 2. Edmund Kirby Smith
                                        >
                                        > Jim




                                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                                      • tmix
                                        So true, so true, so true...Tom M. ... From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@rol.ru] Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM To:
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
                                          So true, so true, so true...Tom M.

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Lt. Col. James L. Choron [mailto:nkitav@...]
                                          Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:04 AM
                                          To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                          rated leader of the Civil War?

                                          Tom,

                                          I have to agree with you about Ben Grierson. His post Civil War career
                                          was
                                          impressive as well, although overlooked by most historians. He is
                                          overshadowed by others.

                                          Jim


                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "tmix" <tmix@...>
                                          To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:35 AM
                                          Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                          rated
                                          leader of the Civil War?


                                          > I came real close to naming Grierson too. He accomplished a lot and
                                          > seems to be relegated to a footnote. But I went with Slocum who, after
                                          > Gettysburg, can't even get a footnote. Tom M.
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: pvtupscope [mailto:PvtUpScope@...]
                                          > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 6:26 PM
                                          > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                          > leader of the Civil War?
                                          >
                                          > I always have admired General Benjamin Grierson, US Calvary,
                                          > for his thrilling raid on Newton Station and his subsequent
                                          > escape south to Baton Rouge.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
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                                          >




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                                        • ron
                                          Don t know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA. ... From: Norris Darrall Reply-To:
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
                                            Don't know about over or underated, but my favorite was Francis Marian Cockrell, CSA.

                                            ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                                            From: "Norris Darrall" <norrisdarrall@...>
                                            Reply-To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 14:22:52 -0000

                                            ><html><body>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            ><tt>
                                            >--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Lt. Col. James L. Choron" <BR>
                                            ><nkitav@r...> wrote:<BR>
                                            ><BR>
                                            >> <BR>
                                            >> Who do you think was the most under rated, or under acclaimed <BR>
                                            >military leader of the Civil War?<BR>
                                            >> <BR>
                                            ><BR>
                                            >My first thought goes to Samuel R. Curtis, Union commander at Pea <BR>
                                            >Ridge, commanded three Departments in the Trans-Mississippi, checked <BR>
                                            >Price's Raid in 64, and died the day after Christmas in '66 before he <BR>
                                            >could write a whole lot.<BR>
                                            ><BR>
                                            >Norris<BR>
                                            ><BR>
                                            ></tt>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            ><br>
                                            ><tt><hr width="500">
                                            ><b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                                            ><ul>
                                            ><li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/</a><br> 
                                            ><li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a href="mailto:civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br> 
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                                            >
                                            ></body></html>
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • hartshje
                                            Sorry Tom, Hope you feel better now. Didn t mean to ruffle your feathers. We really can t discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to the books
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jan 2, 2004
                                              Sorry Tom,

                                              Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                              really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                              the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                              Joe H.

                                              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                              > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                              his
                                              > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                              exact
                                              > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                              so he
                                              > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                              > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                              > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                              > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                              was now
                                              > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                              or two
                                              > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                              on
                                              > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                              direction,
                                              > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                              division
                                              > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                              what
                                              > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                              read
                                              > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                              > Brenner's Hill.
                                              > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                              > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                              > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                              turn
                                              > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                              awaiting
                                              > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                              the
                                              > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                              > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                              > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                              > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                              Being
                                              > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                              present
                                              > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                              knew
                                              > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                              confusion for
                                              > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                              were on
                                              > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                              > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                              At
                                              > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                              on
                                              > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                              now
                                              > the over all commander.
                                              > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                              As
                                              > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                              corps
                                              > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                              > with limited visibility.
                                              > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                              > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                              > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                              rated
                                              > leader of the Civil War?
                                              >
                                              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                              > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                              > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                              > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                              >
                                              > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                              > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                              >
                                              > JOE
                                              >
                                              > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                              > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                              > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                              > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                              > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                              > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                              > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                              > >
                                              > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                              > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                              > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                              > rated
                                              > > leader of the Civil War?
                                              > >
                                              > > Tom,
                                              > >
                                              > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                              > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                              > has
                                              > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                              > >
                                              > > Joe
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                              > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                              > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                              > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                              > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                              every
                                              > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                              > > > Tom Mix
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > >
                                              > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                              > >
                                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > >
                                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                              >
                                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                            • tmix
                                              Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some research. Tom M. ... From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, January 03,
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jan 3, 2004
                                                Thanks, Joe. No problem. I kind of needed a little push to do some
                                                research. Tom M.

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@...]
                                                Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 12:41 AM
                                                To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under rated
                                                leader of the Civil War?

                                                Sorry Tom,

                                                Hope you feel better now. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. We
                                                really can't discuss this here, but I promise you I will go back to
                                                the books and see how far off or right on either of us is.

                                                Joe H.

                                                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                                > He was not THAT late. You over estimate and over state. He received
                                                his
                                                > first request for assistance at around 2:00 from Howard but the
                                                exact
                                                > time of this is uncertain. Slocum was not told of Reynolds' death
                                                so he
                                                > assumed Reynolds to be still in command. This meant he was somewhat
                                                > confused as to why Howard was writing. Howard did not write for
                                                > reinforcements, just for his advice and a request for speed. About
                                                > 3-4:00 he received news of Reynolds' death but also that Hancock
                                                was now
                                                > in command. At this time his men were well on their way only mile
                                                or two
                                                > from Gettysburg. Slocum received a request for immediate assistance
                                                on
                                                > the left. Slocum immediately sent Geary's division in that
                                                direction,
                                                > which was Cemetery Hill. He then informed Howard that his other
                                                division
                                                > was moving up on his "right". Hancock and Howard were unsure as to
                                                what
                                                > the "right" meant as they were standing on Cemetery Hill when they
                                                read
                                                > it. They saw Culp's Hill on the right while Slocum was looking at
                                                > Brenner's Hill.
                                                > Also, based on the message that Hancock was now in command, Slocum
                                                > assumed that he had been supplanted of command despite his being the
                                                > senior general. He did not know that Hancock had been directed to
                                                turn
                                                > command over to Slocum who was the senior general. So, he was
                                                awaiting
                                                > some direction and orders. There is no report of his being upset by
                                                the
                                                > possibility of Hancock being placed in charge.
                                                > Slocum arrived on Cemetery Hill around 4:30-5:00. Hancock explained
                                                > that, as senior general on the ground, Slocum was to assume command
                                                > according to orders from Gen. Meade. Gen. Howard was not present.
                                                Being
                                                > one for formality, Slocum refused command until Gen. Howard was
                                                present
                                                > to confirm and see the change in command. Both Hancock and Slocum
                                                knew
                                                > how sensitive Howard was. Plus, Slocum wanted to avoid the
                                                confusion for
                                                > others that he was feeling. At this point both of his divisions
                                                were on
                                                > the field and one engaged and the other about to be. Gen. Howard
                                                > arrived about 6:00. At that point Gen. Slocum took formal command.
                                                At
                                                > this point he rode to Gen. Alpheus Williams' division about to move
                                                on
                                                > Brenner Hill to tell him to assume command of 12th corps as he was
                                                now
                                                > the over all commander.
                                                > Williams cancelled his move on Brenner Hill and went into bivouac.
                                                As
                                                > the commander of 12th Corps, he had no idea of where half of his
                                                corps
                                                > (Geary) was at. It was now after 7:00 and dark. It was a wooded area
                                                > with limited visibility.
                                                > Slocum then took and held Culp's Hill. Enough said.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                                > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 10:10 PM
                                                > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                                rated
                                                > leader of the Civil War?
                                                >
                                                > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                                > > In Henry's (Slocum's) defense, Meade had just gotten command,
                                                > > there was a great deal of insecurity among the Corps commanders,
                                                > > and Slocum did not want to be set up as the next fall guy.
                                                >
                                                > AH! THAT SAYS IT ALL RIGHT THERE. WHILE THOUSAND WERE BEING KILLED
                                                > AND MAIMED AND TOTAL DISASTER LOOMED, THIS WAS HIS MINDSET?
                                                >
                                                > JOE
                                                >
                                                > > He wanted to be sure of his orders and exactly what Meade wanted
                                                > > him to do. Was he being directed to change his responsibilities
                                                > > entirely? Was he supposed to move his whole Corps at once or
                                                > > piecemeal? Where was Ewell? Was Harrisburg to be left open? Was
                                                > > Meade really in command? Once he got his questions answered, he
                                                > > fought remarkably well . . .
                                                > > Thanks, Tom M.
                                                > >
                                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > From: hartshje [mailto:Hartshje@a...]
                                                > > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 9:19 PM
                                                > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: NEW THREAD... Who was the most under
                                                > rated
                                                > > leader of the Civil War?
                                                > >
                                                > > Tom,
                                                > >
                                                > > As the E.T. is verbotten, I won't get into details. Slocum's
                                                > > overall record is solid, but his inaction on day 1 at Gettysburg
                                                > has
                                                > > got to disqualify him IMO.
                                                > >
                                                > > Joe
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tmix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                                                > > > Ok, I now have my most under rated Union general: Henry Slocum.
                                                > > > It is more like he is ignored rather than under rated. He was a
                                                > > > fine Corps Commander in both theaters of operation. Joe Hooker
                                                > > > also deserves consideration but at least he gets mentioned
                                                every
                                                > > > now and then. Slocum is never discussed.
                                                > > > Tom Mix
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >
                                                > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                                > >
                                                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                > >
                                                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                                                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/
                                                >
                                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > civilwarwest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
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