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Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Longstreet, the AoT, Bragg & Davis

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  • LWhite64@aol.com
    In a message dated 10/8/03 7:58:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Lee also wanted Longstreet back, Lee had been against Longstreet going west and wasnt happy
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 8, 2003
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      In a message dated 10/8/03 7:58:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, james2044@... writes:

      ) Lee didn't want Longstreet sitting on his duff.  Horn uses the
      term "barren victories" as something Lee was warning against.


      Lee also wanted Longstreet back, Lee had been against Longstreet going west and wasnt happy with him gone, and had been trying to get him back since the moment they learned Knoxville had been abandoned.


      2) Davis wanted a blow struck.  He had a childish faith that w/o
      resources battlefield victory could be attained.


      Well the odds werent that far fetched in the Knoxville Campaign, plus Longstreet was facing Burnside, not someone that had a great reputation, plus it did make sense, they were afraid Burnside was going to come down from Knoxville to get to Grant, they also knew Sherman was on his way, if both forces got to Chattanooga it was curtains.  It was a gamble, a bad one, but once again with Bragg, a plan on paper looks great, but weather, logistics, etc throw it off track.


      3) Bragg was having real problems in Chattanooga and Longstreet
      wasn't silent about them.

      And a good deal of those problems came from Longstreet sulking on Lookout Mtn and also becomeing involved in one of the worst fueds of the War, that between Micah Jenkins and Evander Law.  This had a horrible ripple effect on all of the 1st Corps units that Fall/Winter.

      4) Everyone seems to have had an intrest in Burnside about this time.


      See above, also in a case of Irony, one of the things that prompted Grant into action on the Chattanooga front was worrying that about Burnside's safety at Knoxville. 





    • hank9174
      Did Bragg know the size of Longsteet s reinforcement and it s timetable of arrival from the east in September 1863? I m amazed that Bragg would start the
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 9, 2003
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        Did Bragg know the size of Longsteet's reinforcement and it's
        timetable of arrival from the east in September 1863?

        I'm amazed that Bragg would start the battle of Chickamauga before
        the entire force was up. 3 brigades took part in the battle, but 5
        brigades and the artillery battalion of 30 guns arrived too late.

        Consider that Bragg had a deficiency of infantry and was fighting on
        the tactical offensive. Did he wish the AoT to have a victory without
        the help of Longstreet's columns?

        I wonder how much he knew of their imminent arrival as no one
        prepared to meet Longstreet and escort him to HQ. IIRC, it was 10
        days from departure at Louisa Court House until the ANV forces were
        completely deployed.


        HankC
      • LWhite64@aol.com
        Well Bragg knew they were on the way, but he was trying to take advantage of the oportunity that he had before him of destroying Crittenden s Corps at Lee and
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 9, 2003
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          Well Bragg knew they were on the way, but he was trying to take advantage of the oportunity that he had before him of destroying Crittenden's Corps at Lee and Gordon's Mill before Thomas and McCook could link up with it, he also would cut off the others from getting back to the defences of Chattanooga. He couldnt wait for Longstreet, in fact Bragg wanted the movement that led to the battle to begin on Sept 17.

          Lee
        • Martin Williams
          There is a good essay on this by Edward Carr Franks in the book Leadership and Command in the American Civil War. It discusses Bragg s options at
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 10, 2003
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            There is a good essay on this by Edward Carr Franks in the book "Leadership and Command in the American Civil War."  It discusses Bragg's options at Chattanooga, why Carter Stevenson and his division were first sent up to Knoxville, and why Longstreet was selected to replace him. 
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: james2044
            Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 7:56 PM
            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Longstreet, the AoT, Bragg & Davis


            > Just for the record on this, the idea to send Longstreet to get
            Burnside was
            > Davis' and Lee's.  Lee wanted Longstreet back, and Davis was
            trying to
            > accommodate him.
            >

            Lee;

            I can't find a reference for this but my understanding is this:

            1) Lee didn't want Longstreet sitting on his duff.  Horn uses the
            term "barren victories" as something Lee was warning against.

            2) Davis wanted a blow struck.  He had a childish faith that w/o
            resources battlefield victory could be attained.

            3) Bragg was having real problems in Chattanooga and Longstreet
            wasn't silent about them.

            4) Everyone seems to have had an intrest in Burnside about this time.

            IMO, Bragg knowing he couldn't get rid of Longstreet, needing to
            keep Davis happy and wanting to remove the most logical replacement
            for him, it's a no brainer.

            James2044



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          • Martin Williams
            What I remember of this is that all of Longstreet s Corps- Hood s, McLaws , and Pickett s Divisions- were supposed to go, at least in the first draft of the
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 11, 2003
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              What I remember of this is that all of Longstreet's Corps- Hood's, McLaws', and Pickett's Divisions- were supposed to go, at least in the first draft of the plan.  Pickett himself pointed out that the three (Virginia) brigades he actually had present at Gettysburg were in no shape for further action, so he and they were left in Virginia.  Of the other two, Jenkins' South Carolina Brigade was attached to Hood's Division, thus laying the foundations for the feud with Law, and Corse's Virginia Brigade presumably would have been attached to McLaws' Division.  I say "presumably" because when Richmond took another look at the situation it remembered that Corse had been sent off to southwestern Virginia in response to the other part of the problem- Burnside's advance from Knoxville toward that area.  So, another Virginia brigade, Wise's, which was on garrison duty, was sent instead. 
               
              (For those keeping track of such things, Wise's was the only Virginia brigade sent in Longstreet's Corps.  Hood's Division included the Texas Brigade, which also had the AoNV's only Arkansas regiment, one brigade from Alabama and two from Georgia.  McLaw's Division had one brigade from Mississippi, one from South Carolina, and two from Georgia.  I mention this because McMurry in "Two Great Rebel Armies" implies somewhere- I have the book in front of me but I haven't got time to look for the citation- that the Corps consisted of nothing but Virginia brigades.)
               
              Next, I recall reading that Richmond considered that two of the four Georgia brigades could not be taken all the way into Georgia because of morale problems.  That might have been due to hard fighting or just plain homesickness or both.  Instead they were supposed to be sent to Charleston to replace brigades from its garrison.  I further think these two brigades recovered in time to join the Corps before Chattanooga and from there went to Knoxville.   Again, I'd follow up on who actually went where for how long but I'm running out of time.
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: hank9174
              Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 9:15 AM
              Subject: [civilwarwest] Longstreet move west


              Did Bragg know the size of Longsteet's reinforcement and it's
              timetable of arrival from the east in September 1863?

              I'm amazed that Bragg would start the battle of Chickamauga before
              the entire force was up. 3 brigades took part in the battle, but 5
              brigades and the artillery battalion of 30 guns arrived too late.

              Consider that Bragg had a deficiency of infantry and was fighting on
              the tactical offensive. Did he wish the AoT to have a victory without
              the help of Longstreet's columns?

              I wonder how much he knew of their imminent arrival as no one
              prepared to meet Longstreet and escort him to HQ. IIRC, it was 10
              days from departure at Louisa Court House until the ANV forces were
              completely deployed.


              HankC



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            • LWhite64@aol.com
              in regards to the Georgians, the only Brigade of Longstreet s Georgians to fight in the Battle was Benning s. Wofford s Brigade was in the area, but asigned
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 11, 2003
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                in regards to the Georgians,  the only Brigade of Longstreet's Georgians to fight in the Battle was Benning's.  Wofford's Brigade was in the area, but asigned to duties in the rear.  BryaN'S and Anderson's Brigades arrived in the next couple of days after the Battle.

                Lee
              • Martin Williams
                Found this in the ORs, Volume 29 (a Forbidden Zone volume): On 9/9, Lee wrote to Davis that all three divisions were on the way to Hanover Junction.
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 12, 2003
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                  Found this in the ORs, Volume 29 (a Forbidden Zone volume):
                   
                  On 9/9, Lee wrote to Davis that all three divisions were on the way to Hanover Junction.  Longstreet had proposed that Pickett's Division take the place of Jenkins' and Wise's brigades in the Richmond defenses, with the former to join Hood's Division and the latter McLaws'.  Longstreet had also selected two Georgia brigades for Charleston, one from each division. "He does not want to take them into Georgia for fear of desertion." In a second message on that date Lee notified Davis that Anderson's was the brigade chosen from Hood's Division.
                   
                  On 9/10, Lee reported to Davis that "Anderson's Brigade...and Bryan's Brigade...are selected by General Longstreet to go to Charleston.  If preferred Wise and Jenkins could go in their place..." In his indorsement Davis concurred with Lee, "unless there be reason to fear straggling from the brigades named..."
                   
                  On the 11th, Jenkins' Brigade was assigned to Hood's Division and Wise was ordered to Charleston.
                   
                  On the 12th, Longstreet informed Lee that "Anderson's brigade was so far on its way to Charleston...that it could not be diverted," that he had decided to replace it in Hood's Division with Jenkins' Brigade, and that had Jenkins continued to Charleston he (Longstreet) felt that Beauregard would have kept both brigades.
                   
                  Oh, and on 9/4 Longstreet in a letter to Lee suggested that his corps remain with the AoNV, that Bragg be transferred to take command of it while he (Longstreet) replaced Bragg as commanding general of the AoT, and that the only troops Longstreet needed to take with him were Jenkins', Wise's and John R. Cooke's brigades and some artillery.  (Cooke's Brigade, which belonged to Heth's Division, like Jenkins' and Corse's had been held in Virginia during the Gettysburg campaign.)
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 10:00 PM
                  Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Longstreet move west

                  in regards to the Georgians,  the only Brigade of Longstreet's Georgians to fight in the Battle was Benning's.  Wofford's Brigade was in the area, but asigned to duties in the rear.  BryaN'S and Anderson's Brigades arrived in the next couple of days after the Battle.

                  Lee

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                • Dave Smith
                  I agree with what Lee says, but I m still amazed at the seeming lack of concern about the arrival of Longstreet s forces. Bragg evidenced, through his staff or
                  Message 8 of 8 , Oct 14, 2003
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                    I agree with what Lee says, but I'm still amazed at the seeming lack
                    of concern about the arrival of Longstreet's forces.

                    Bragg evidenced, through his staff or otherwise, concern about
                    Longstreet's whereabouts, even though he tactically assigned half of
                    his army to Old Pete prior to going to sleep the night of September
                    19 - and before Longstreet's arrival!

                    I've suggested this before; we know of Lee's staff, we know of
                    Longstreet and Jackson's staffs, but who - other than William
                    Mackall, do we know of regarding Bragg's staff?

                    Unless it's poor Pollack Lee who couldn't seem to get the Polk
                    breakfast thingy straight ...

                    Dave

                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, LWhite64@a... wrote:
                    > Well Bragg knew they were on the way, but he was trying to take
                    advantage of the oportunity that he had before him of destroying
                    Crittenden's Corps at Lee and Gordon's Mill before Thomas and McCook
                    could link up with it, he also would cut off the others from getting
                    back to the defences of Chattanooga. He couldnt wait for Longstreet,
                    in fact Bragg wanted the movement that led to the battle to begin on
                    Sept 17.
                    >
                    > Lee
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