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  • rockeurgri@aol.com
    IMHO The following statement seems to be rhetorical and false. ... adopted was a message of defiance to the federal Constitution, government, and courts and a
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
      IMHO The following statement seems to be rhetorical and false.
      >>"The message that was sent when it [the Georgia State flag] was
      adopted was a message of defiance to the federal Constitution,
      government, and courts and a message to the Black citizens of that
      state that the state would engage in Massive Resistance to any and
      all efforts to protect and enforce the rights of Blacks under the US
      Constitution, especially the 14th and 15th Amendments" >>

      In 1955, an Atlanta attorney suggested a new state flag for Georgia
      that would embody the Confederate Battle Flag, also known as the
      "Southern Cross". During the 1956 session of the general assembly,
      state senators introduced Senate Bill 98 to change the state flag to
      incorporate the battle flag. It had previously held the First
      National Flag, better known as the "Stars and Bars". This was signed
      into law of Feb. 13, 1956. John Bell, the designer of this flag,
      stated that the purpose for the change was to honor ancestors who
      fought and died.

      Rosa Parks, after a long day of work refused to give up her seat to a
      man on December 1, 1955. This lead to her arrest and trial, a 381-day
      Montgomery bus boycott, and, finally, the Supreme Court's ruling in
      November 1956 that segregation on transportation is unconstitutional.
      This is generally regarded as the beginning of the civil rights
      movement.

      The Atlanta Journal, in a 1992 investigation of the changing of the
      flag, stated that no evidence exists to link the change with racial
      motives. For all practical purposes, the "Stars and Stripes"
      represents the enslavement of a race of people. One should also look
      to our neighbors here in the south. Take the time to look at
      Tennessee, Florida, Arkansas, and Alabama for echoes of that Battle
      Flag. These, and especially Mississippi, must be next on the grand
      'racism symbol' score which must be settled.

      Ed Roberts a.k.a. Rockeur
      Atlanta, GEORGIA
    • Margaret D. Blough
      Message text written by INTERNET:civilwarwest@egroups.com ... IMHO The following statement seems to be rhetorical and false. ... adopted was a message of
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
        Message text written by INTERNET:civilwarwest@egroups.com
        >
        IMHO The following statement seems to be rhetorical and false.
        >>"The message that was sent when it [the Georgia State flag] was
        adopted was a message of defiance to the federal Constitution,
        government, and courts and a message to the Black citizens of that
        state that the state would engage in Massive Resistance to any and
        all efforts to protect and enforce the rights of Blacks under the US
        Constitution, especially the 14th and 15th Amendments" >>

        In 1955, an Atlanta attorney suggested a new state flag for Georgia
        that would embody the Confederate Battle Flag, also known as the
        "Southern Cross". During the 1956 session of the general assembly,
        state senators introduced Senate Bill 98 to change the state flag to
        incorporate the battle flag. It had previously held the First
        National Flag, better known as the "Stars and Bars". This was signed
        into law of Feb. 13, 1956. John Bell, the designer of this flag,
        stated that the purpose for the change was to honor ancestors who
        fought and died.

        Rosa Parks, after a long day of work refused to give up her seat to a
        man on December 1, 1955. This lead to her arrest and trial, a 381-day
        Montgomery bus boycott, and, finally, the Supreme Court's ruling in
        November 1956 that segregation on transportation is unconstitutional.
        This is generally regarded as the beginning of the civil rights
        movement.

        The Atlanta Journal, in a 1992 investigation of the changing of the
        flag, stated that no evidence exists to link the change with racial
        motives. For all practical purposes, the "Stars and Stripes"
        represents the enslavement of a race of people. One should also look
        to our neighbors here in the south. Take the time to look at
        Tennessee, Florida, Arkansas, and Alabama for echoes of that Battle
        Flag. These, and especially Mississippi, must be next on the grand
        'racism symbol' score which must be settled.

        Ed Roberts a.k.a. Rockeur
        Atlanta, GEORGIA
        <

        Ed,

        There was a little thing known as "Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka
        Kansas, et al." that had been decided in 1954, which overruled the 1896
        decision of "Plessy v. Ferguson" and Plessy's approval of "separate but
        equal" (Plessy actually dealt with a Jim Crow transportation system).
        Brown was the culmination of a series of lawsuits, principally by the NAACP
        Legal Defense Fund, that attacked segregation at its legal foundations
        with the overturning of Plessy as its goal. Rosa Parks' act was not all
        that spontaneous but a part of a ongoing campaign that began in the 1940s
        against de jure segregation. The best book I've seen on this whole period
        is " Simple Justice: The History of Brown v. Board of Education and Black
        America's Struggle for Equality" by Richard Kluger, which, although first
        published in 1977 is still in print and published by Vintage Books.

        In any event, I'm baffled as to how replacing a flag that included the
        first Confederate National flag was needed to honor ancestors who had
        fought and died for the Confederacy. John Bell could say anything he
        wanted to about the reason for the change but you cannot remove the act
        from its context. Massive Resistance was a fact and open state policy in
        the southern states as the records currently being released from the 1950s
        and 1960s of the Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission confirm. In
        addition, perhaps, in choosing a flag to represent a state and =ALL= of
        its people, that portion of the people who had been collectively denied the
        franchise might want to have a say in the design of the flag, and that
        includes Mississippi where people were murdered in the 1960s for trying to
        help Blacks register to vote. I am half Scottish and proud of it, but I'm
        don't believe that the Pennsylvania state flag should included either the
        lion of St. Andrews or the saltire.

        Regards,

        Margaret D. Blough
      • Margaret D. Blough
        Message text written by INTERNET:civilwarwest@egroups.com ... IMHO The following statement seems to be rhetorical and false. ... adopted was a message of
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
          Message text written by INTERNET:civilwarwest@egroups.com
          >
          IMHO The following statement seems to be rhetorical and false.
          >>"The message that was sent when it [the Georgia State flag] was
          adopted was a message of defiance to the federal Constitution,
          government, and courts and a message to the Black citizens of that
          state that the state would engage in Massive Resistance to any and
          all efforts to protect and enforce the rights of Blacks under the US
          Constitution, especially the 14th and 15th Amendments" >>

          In 1955, an Atlanta attorney suggested a new state flag for Georgia
          that would embody the Confederate Battle Flag, also known as the
          "Southern Cross". During the 1956 session of the general assembly,
          state senators introduced Senate Bill 98 to change the state flag to
          incorporate the battle flag. It had previously held the First
          National Flag, better known as the "Stars and Bars". This was signed
          into law of Feb. 13, 1956. John Bell, the designer of this flag,
          stated that the purpose for the change was to honor ancestors who
          fought and died.

          Rosa Parks, after a long day of work refused to give up her seat to a
          man on December 1, 1955. This lead to her arrest and trial, a 381-day
          Montgomery bus boycott, and, finally, the Supreme Court's ruling in
          November 1956 that segregation on transportation is unconstitutional.
          This is generally regarded as the beginning of the civil rights
          movement.

          The Atlanta Journal, in a 1992 investigation of the changing of the
          flag, stated that no evidence exists to link the change with racial
          motives. For all practical purposes, the "Stars and Stripes"
          represents the enslavement of a race of people. One should also look
          to our neighbors here in the south. Take the time to look at
          Tennessee, Florida, Arkansas, and Alabama for echoes of that Battle
          Flag. These, and especially Mississippi, must be next on the grand
          'racism symbol' score which must be settled.

          Ed Roberts a.k.a. Rockeur
          Atlanta, GEORGIA
          <

          Ed,

          There was a little thing known as "Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka
          Kansas, et al." that had been decided in 1954, which overruled the 1896
          decision of "Plessy v. Ferguson" and Plessy's approval of "separate but
          equal" (Plessy actually dealt with a Jim Crow transportation system).
          Brown was the culmination of a series of lawsuits, principally by the NAACP
          Legal Defense Fund, that attacked segregation at its legal foundations
          with the overturning of Plessy as its goal. Rosa Parks' act was not all
          that spontaneous but a part of a ongoing campaign that began in the 1940s
          against de jure segregation. The best book I've seen on this whole period
          is " Simple Justice: The History of Brown v. Board of Education and Black
          America's Struggle for Equality" by Richard Kluger, which, although first
          published in 1977 is still in print and published by Vintage Books.

          In any event, I'm baffled as to how replacing a flag that included the
          first Confederate National flag was needed to honor ancestors who had
          fought and died for the Confederacy. John Bell could say anything he
          wanted to about the reason for the change but you cannot remove the act
          from its context. Massive Resistance was a fact and open state policy in
          the southern states as the records currently being released from the 1950s
          and 1960s of the Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission confirm. In
          addition, perhaps, in choosing a flag to represent a state and =ALL= of
          its people, that portion of the people who had been collectively denied the
          franchise might want to have a say in the design of the flag, and that
          includes Mississippi where people were murdered in the 1960s for trying to
          help Blacks register to vote. I am half Scottish and proud of it, but I'm
          don't believe that the Pennsylvania state flag should included either the
          lion of St. Andrews or the saltire.

          Regards,

          Margaret D. Blough
        • aldrichr@dsmo.com
          ... US ... to ... signed ... a ... day ... unconstitutional. ... look ... Topeka ... 1896 ... but ... system). ... the NAACP ... foundations ... not all ...
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
            --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, "Margaret D. Blough"
            <102505.271@C...> wrote:
            > Message text written by INTERNET:civilwarwest@egroups.com
            > >
            > IMHO The following statement seems to be rhetorical and false.
            > >>"The message that was sent when it [the Georgia State flag] was
            > adopted was a message of defiance to the federal Constitution,
            > government, and courts and a message to the Black citizens of that
            > state that the state would engage in Massive Resistance to any and
            > all efforts to protect and enforce the rights of Blacks under the
            US
            > Constitution, especially the 14th and 15th Amendments" >>
            >
            > In 1955, an Atlanta attorney suggested a new state flag for Georgia
            > that would embody the Confederate Battle Flag, also known as the
            > "Southern Cross". During the 1956 session of the general assembly,
            > state senators introduced Senate Bill 98 to change the state flag
            to
            > incorporate the battle flag. It had previously held the First
            > National Flag, better known as the "Stars and Bars". This was
            signed
            > into law of Feb. 13, 1956. John Bell, the designer of this flag,
            > stated that the purpose for the change was to honor ancestors who
            > fought and died.
            >
            > Rosa Parks, after a long day of work refused to give up her seat to
            a
            > man on December 1, 1955. This lead to her arrest and trial, a 381-
            day
            > Montgomery bus boycott, and, finally, the Supreme Court's ruling in
            > November 1956 that segregation on transportation is
            unconstitutional.
            > This is generally regarded as the beginning of the civil rights
            > movement.
            >
            > The Atlanta Journal, in a 1992 investigation of the changing of the
            > flag, stated that no evidence exists to link the change with racial
            > motives. For all practical purposes, the "Stars and Stripes"
            > represents the enslavement of a race of people. One should also
            look
            > to our neighbors here in the south. Take the time to look at
            > Tennessee, Florida, Arkansas, and Alabama for echoes of that Battle
            > Flag. These, and especially Mississippi, must be next on the grand
            > 'racism symbol' score which must be settled.
            >
            > Ed Roberts a.k.a. Rockeur
            > Atlanta, GEORGIA
            > <
            >
            > Ed,
            >
            > There was a little thing known as "Brown v. Board of Education of
            Topeka
            > Kansas, et al." that had been decided in 1954, which overruled the
            1896
            > decision of "Plessy v. Ferguson" and Plessy's approval of "separate
            but
            > equal" (Plessy actually dealt with a Jim Crow transportation
            system).
            > Brown was the culmination of a series of lawsuits, principally by
            the NAACP
            > Legal Defense Fund, that attacked segregation at its legal
            foundations
            > with the overturning of Plessy as its goal. Rosa Parks' act was
            not all
            > that spontaneous but a part of a ongoing campaign that began in the
            1940s
            > against de jure segregation. The best book I've seen on this whole
            period
            > is " Simple Justice: The History of Brown v. Board of Education and
            Black
            > America's Struggle for Equality" by Richard Kluger, which, although
            first
            > published in 1977 is still in print and published by Vintage Books.
            >
            > In any event, I'm baffled as to how replacing a flag that included
            the
            > first Confederate National flag was needed to honor ancestors who
            had
            > fought and died for the Confederacy. John Bell could say anything
            he
            > wanted to about the reason for the change but you cannot remove the
            act
            > from its context. Massive Resistance was a fact and open state
            policy in
            > the southern states as the records currently being released from
            the 1950s
            > and 1960s of the Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission
            confirm. In
            > addition, perhaps, in choosing a flag to represent a state and
            =ALL= of
            > its people, that portion of the people who had been collectively
            denied the
            > franchise might want to have a say in the design of the flag, and
            that
            > includes Mississippi where people were murdered in the 1960s for
            trying to
            > help Blacks register to vote. I am half Scottish and proud of it,
            but I'm
            > don't believe that the Pennsylvania state flag should included
            either the
            > lion of St. Andrews or the saltire.
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Margaret D. Blough
          • aldrichr@dsmo.com
            ... US ... to ... signed ... a ... day ... unconstitutional. ... look ... Topeka ... 1896 ... but ... system). ... the NAACP ... foundations ... not all ...
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
              --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, "Margaret D. Blough"
              <102505.271@C...> wrote:
              > Message text written by INTERNET:civilwarwest@egroups.com
              > >
              > IMHO The following statement seems to be rhetorical and false.
              > >>"The message that was sent when it [the Georgia State flag] was
              > adopted was a message of defiance to the federal Constitution,
              > government, and courts and a message to the Black citizens of that
              > state that the state would engage in Massive Resistance to any and
              > all efforts to protect and enforce the rights of Blacks under the
              US
              > Constitution, especially the 14th and 15th Amendments" >>
              >
              > In 1955, an Atlanta attorney suggested a new state flag for Georgia
              > that would embody the Confederate Battle Flag, also known as the
              > "Southern Cross". During the 1956 session of the general assembly,
              > state senators introduced Senate Bill 98 to change the state flag
              to
              > incorporate the battle flag. It had previously held the First
              > National Flag, better known as the "Stars and Bars". This was
              signed
              > into law of Feb. 13, 1956. John Bell, the designer of this flag,
              > stated that the purpose for the change was to honor ancestors who
              > fought and died.
              >
              > Rosa Parks, after a long day of work refused to give up her seat to
              a
              > man on December 1, 1955. This lead to her arrest and trial, a 381-
              day
              > Montgomery bus boycott, and, finally, the Supreme Court's ruling in
              > November 1956 that segregation on transportation is
              unconstitutional.
              > This is generally regarded as the beginning of the civil rights
              > movement.
              >
              > The Atlanta Journal, in a 1992 investigation of the changing of the
              > flag, stated that no evidence exists to link the change with racial
              > motives. For all practical purposes, the "Stars and Stripes"
              > represents the enslavement of a race of people. One should also
              look
              > to our neighbors here in the south. Take the time to look at
              > Tennessee, Florida, Arkansas, and Alabama for echoes of that Battle
              > Flag. These, and especially Mississippi, must be next on the grand
              > 'racism symbol' score which must be settled.
              >
              > Ed Roberts a.k.a. Rockeur
              > Atlanta, GEORGIA
              > <
              >
              > Ed,
              >
              > There was a little thing known as "Brown v. Board of Education of
              Topeka
              > Kansas, et al." that had been decided in 1954, which overruled the
              1896
              > decision of "Plessy v. Ferguson" and Plessy's approval of "separate
              but
              > equal" (Plessy actually dealt with a Jim Crow transportation
              system).
              > Brown was the culmination of a series of lawsuits, principally by
              the NAACP
              > Legal Defense Fund, that attacked segregation at its legal
              foundations
              > with the overturning of Plessy as its goal. Rosa Parks' act was
              not all
              > that spontaneous but a part of a ongoing campaign that began in the
              1940s
              > against de jure segregation. The best book I've seen on this whole
              period
              > is " Simple Justice: The History of Brown v. Board of Education and
              Black
              > America's Struggle for Equality" by Richard Kluger, which, although
              first
              > published in 1977 is still in print and published by Vintage Books.
              >
              > In any event, I'm baffled as to how replacing a flag that included
              the
              > first Confederate National flag was needed to honor ancestors who
              had
              > fought and died for the Confederacy. John Bell could say anything
              he
              > wanted to about the reason for the change but you cannot remove the
              act
              > from its context. Massive Resistance was a fact and open state
              policy in
              > the southern states as the records currently being released from
              the 1950s
              > and 1960s of the Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission
              confirm. In
              > addition, perhaps, in choosing a flag to represent a state and
              =ALL= of
              > its people, that portion of the people who had been collectively
              denied the
              > franchise might want to have a say in the design of the flag, and
              that
              > includes Mississippi where people were murdered in the 1960s for
              trying to
              > help Blacks register to vote. I am half Scottish and proud of it,
              but I'm
              > don't believe that the Pennsylvania state flag should included
              either the
              > lion of St. Andrews or the saltire.
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Margaret D. Blough
            • Margaret D. Blough
              Message text written by INTERNET:civilwarwest@egroups.com ... Dear Margaret Blough, I agree with your views 100%. I would love to add more, but recognize that
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
                Message text written by INTERNET:civilwarwest@egroups.com
                >
                Dear Margaret Blough,

                I agree with your views 100%. I would love to add more, but
                recognize that this is an off-topic and inflammatory subject (not
                introduced by you) that really shouldn't continue to be pursued if we
                are going to maintain a collegial atmosphere in this discussion group.

                Bob Aldrich <

                Bob,

                I think you're right on all of the points you make, including the
                inadvisability of pursuing this any further in this group. Fundamentally,
                I believe that this is something that the citizens of each of the states
                where this is an issue will have to decide.

                Regards,

                Margaret
              • Margaret D. Blough
                Message text written by INTERNET:civilwarwest@egroups.com ... Dear Margaret Blough, I agree with your views 100%. I would love to add more, but recognize that
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
                  Message text written by INTERNET:civilwarwest@egroups.com
                  >
                  Dear Margaret Blough,

                  I agree with your views 100%. I would love to add more, but
                  recognize that this is an off-topic and inflammatory subject (not
                  introduced by you) that really shouldn't continue to be pursued if we
                  are going to maintain a collegial atmosphere in this discussion group.

                  Bob Aldrich <

                  Bob,

                  I think you're right on all of the points you make, including the
                  inadvisability of pursuing this any further in this group. Fundamentally,
                  I believe that this is something that the citizens of each of the states
                  where this is an issue will have to decide.

                  Regards,

                  Margaret
                • averygacav@aol.com
                  Two cents worth from a Georgia native. I would resist any effort to pretend that the Civil War never happened or to pretend that the brave men that fell in
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 3, 2000
                    Two cents worth from a Georgia native. I would resist any effort to pretend
                    that the Civil War never happened or to pretend that the brave men that fell
                    in defense of their country deserved less respect than any other veterans BUT
                    the southern cross battle flag is not what my ancestors fought for. To honor
                    these men we ought to INSIST that the national flag fly over the southern
                    capitals, ALL of them, to shown a shared history. There is no place in this
                    country for racism and we wouldn't be arguing in support of any other flag
                    adopted by racist organisatons.
                  • averygacav@aol.com
                    Two cents worth from a Georgia native. I would resist any effort to pretend that the Civil War never happened or to pretend that the brave men that fell in
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 3, 2000
                      Two cents worth from a Georgia native. I would resist any effort to pretend
                      that the Civil War never happened or to pretend that the brave men that fell
                      in defense of their country deserved less respect than any other veterans BUT
                      the southern cross battle flag is not what my ancestors fought for. To honor
                      these men we ought to INSIST that the national flag fly over the southern
                      capitals, ALL of them, to shown a shared history. There is no place in this
                      country for racism and we wouldn't be arguing in support of any other flag
                      adopted by racist organisatons.
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