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Cavalry raiders seminar

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  • jim@gwe.net
    Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar in Richmond on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as well as Mosby and Wilson,
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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      Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar in Richmond
      on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as well as Mosby and
      Wilson, presented by Jeff Wert, Dr. Brian Steele Wills, Dr. James Ramage,
      and Edwin C. Bearss (who wrote Forrest at Bryce's Crossroads). The seminar
      is being presented by the Pamplin Park people. Sounds like it ought to be
      worthwhile.

      Jim
    • M. E. Heatherington
      Dear Group: ... A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows: 1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a passing way,
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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        Dear Group:

        On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:16:51, <jim@...> wrote:

        >Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar
        >in Richmond on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as
        >well as Mosby and >Wilson, presented by Jeff Wert, Dr. Brian
        >Steele Wills, Dr. James Ramage, and Edwin C. Bearss (who wrote
        >Forrest at Bryce's Crossroads). The seminar is being presented by
        >the Pamplin Park people. Sounds like it ought to be worthwhile.

        A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows:

        1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a
        passing way, or is it entirely Confederate? (The Union Col. B. H. Grierson
        is my special project right now. Am much interested in him, but also in the
        pushy Wilson and the hapless Streight.)

        2. What about the mechanics of the conference, e.g., where in Richmond?
        what cost? where/how to register? who benefits/sponsors?

        3. Forgive my ignorance, but who is/are "the Pamplin Park people"? Is there
        a way to get hold of them directly: a Web site, a phone number?

        ...and, while we're at it, what about "American Military University"
        (www.amunet.edu)? Anybody know anything about it?

        Yours, with interest,
        Madelon
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      • jim@gwe.net
        Wilson s Alabama raid will also be covered. Info on the conference at: www.pamplinpark.org/events.html I believe it is $150 per person for the two days which
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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          Wilson's Alabama raid will also be covered. Info on the conference at:
          www.pamplinpark.org/events.html

          I believe it is $150 per person for the two days which includes all meals
          and a narrated bus trip that follows JEB Stuart's path around McClellan.

          Jim

          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Cavalry raiders seminar


          > Dear Group:
          >
          > On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:16:51, <jim@...> wrote:
          >
          > >Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar
          > >in Richmond on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as
          > >well as Mosby and >Wilson, presented by Jeff Wert, Dr. Brian
          > >Steele Wills, Dr. James Ramage, and Edwin C. Bearss (who wrote
          > >Forrest at Bryce's Crossroads). The seminar is being presented by
          > >the Pamplin Park people. Sounds like it ought to be worthwhile.
          >
          > A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows:
          >
          > 1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a
          > passing way, or is it entirely Confederate? (The Union Col. B. H.
          Grierson
          > is my special project right now. Am much interested in him, but also in
          the
          > pushy Wilson and the hapless Streight.)
          >
          > 2. What about the mechanics of the conference, e.g., where in Richmond?
          > what cost? where/how to register? who benefits/sponsors?
          >
          > 3. Forgive my ignorance, but who is/are "the Pamplin Park people"? Is
          there
          > a way to get hold of them directly: a Web site, a phone number?
          >
          > ...and, while we're at it, what about "American Military University"
          > (www.amunet.edu)? Anybody know anything about it?
          >
          > Yours, with interest,
          > Madelon
          > _________________________________________________________________________
          > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
          >
          > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
          > http://profiles.msn.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • jim@gwe.net
          Just to make it easy, here is the announcement from Pamplin Park s web page: Pamplin Historical Park Announces Symposium Cavalry Raiders and Guerrillas will
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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            Just to make it easy, here is the announcement from Pamplin Park's web page:


            Pamplin Historical Park Announces Symposium

            "Cavalry Raiders and Guerrillas" will be the theme of the 4th annual Pamplin
            Historical Park Symposium, October 21 and 22 in Richmond, Virginia. The
            symposium will be held at the Holiday Inn Central.

            The introduction into cavalry doctrine of large-scale mounted raids is one
            of the least recognized innovations of the American Civil War. Gen. J.E.B.
            Stuart generally receives credit for this change in the use of the mounted
            arm, though other leaders such as Nathan Bedford Forrest, John Hunt Morgan,
            Benjamin Grierson, George Stoneman and James H. Wilson helped perfect the
            science by war's end.

            The event will feature lectures by some of the leading authorities on the
            subject. Speakers and their topics are: Edwin C. Bearss, "Wilson's Alabama
            Raid"; Dr. Steven Davis, "Civil War Cavalry Raids: Just What Did They
            Achieve?"; Jeffrey D. Wert, "Mosby's Rangers"; Dr. Brian Steel Wills,
            "Nathan Bedford Forrest"; Dr. James A Ramage, "John Hunt Morgan: Confederate
            Raider and Folk Hero."

            The symposium will also feature a bus tour of J.E.B. Stuart's ride around
            McClellan. The tour will be led by Ed Bearss and A. Wilson Greene.

            Cost for the symposium is $150 per person and includes meals. A special room
            rate of $59 is available at the Holiday Inn Central (804-359-9441). For
            symposium information or reservations, call toll free 1-877-PAMPLIN.
          • David Woodbury
            ... Madelon, Pamplin Park is the new, privately funded Civil War park near Petersburg. Its grounds present some of the best surviving trenches from the
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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              At 2:41 PM -0400 9/30/00, M. E. Heatherington wrote:
              >3. Forgive my ignorance, but who is/are "the Pamplin Park people"? Is there
              >a way to get hold of them directly: a Web site, a phone number?

              Madelon,

              Pamplin Park is the new, privately funded Civil War park near
              Petersburg. Its grounds present some of the best surviving trenches
              from the Petersburg lines, and their big attraction is the National
              Museum of the Civil War Soldier. It's a pretty impressive place, with
              first-rate historians on staff (e.g., Arthur Bergeron and A. Wilson
              Greene).

              Grierson is mentioned in the seminar literature, but not specifically
              after a speaker's name as a topic. Maybe Steven Davis will talk about
              him. Looks like it's all Confederate except Bearss is talking about
              Wilson's Raid (to Selma).

              http://www.pamplinpark.org/

              From the web site:

              Pamplin Historical Park Announces Symposium

              "Cavalry Raiders and Guerrillas" will be the theme of the 4th annual
              Pamplin Historical Park Symposium,
              October 21 and 22 in Richmond, Virginia. The symposium will be held
              at the Holiday Inn Central.

              The introduction into cavalry doctrine of large-scale mounted raids
              is one of the least recognized innovations of the American Civil War.
              Gen. J.E.B. Stuart generally receives credit for this change in the
              use of the mounted arm, though other leaders such as Nathan Bedford
              Forrest, John Hunt Morgan, Benjamin Grierson, George Stoneman and
              James H. Wilson helped perfect the science by war's end.

              The event will feature lectures by some of the leading authorities on
              the subject. Speakers and their topics are: Edwin C. Bearss,
              "Wilson's Alabama Raid"; Dr. Steven Davis, "Civil War Cavalry Raids:
              Just What Did They Achieve?"; Jeffrey D. Wert, "Mosby's Rangers"; Dr.
              Brian Steel Wills, "Nathan Bedford Forrest"; Dr. James A Ramage,
              "John Hunt Morgan: Confederate Raider and Folk Hero."

              The symposium will also feature a bus tour of J.E.B. Stuart's ride
              around McClellan. The tour will be led by Ed Bearss and A. Wilson
              Greene.

              Cost for the symposium is $150 per person and includes meals. A
              special room rate of $59 is available at the Holiday Inn Central
              (804-359-9441). For symposium information or reservations, call toll
              free
              1-877-PAMPLIN.
            • csacavalier@aol.com
              In a message dated 09/30/2000 11:43:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, meheatherington@hotmail.com writes:
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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                In a message dated 09/30/2000 11:43:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                meheatherington@... writes:

                << A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows:
                1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a
                passing way, or is it entirely Confederate? (The Union Col. B. H. Grierson
                is my special project right now. Am much interested in him, but also in the
                pushy Wilson and the hapless Streight.)>>

                Dear Madelon,
                Actually I believe they will be discussing innovative raiders. Colonel
                Grierson's success was largely dependent upon the fact that we were too busy
                at Vicksburg to really pay him much attention in Mississippi. Wilson did
                have an excellent raid...toward the end when most of our men, supplies, and
                horses were...well...by then we was flat wore out!! And Streight...."Not the
                first time a bluff beat a straight."

                Regards,

                Steve
              • M. E. Heatherington
                In a message dated Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:11:51 EDT, wrote [responding to a question of mine about the cavalry conference at Pamplin Park,
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 28, 2000
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                  In a message dated Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:11:51 EDT, <csacavalier@...>
                  wrote [responding to a question of mine about the cavalry conference at
                  Pamplin Park, namely, would there be any discussion of *Union* cavalry at
                  the conference, specifically of Grierson or Wilson or even the hapless
                  Streight. (Answer, by the way: yes, but not much; it was mostly focused on
                  Eastern Confederate cavalry.)]:

                  > Dear Madelon,
                  > Actually I believe they will be discussing innovative raiders.
                  >Colonel Grierson's success was largely dependent upon the fact that we
                  >were too busy at Vicksburg to really pay him much attention in
                  >Mississippi. Wilson did have an excellent raid...toward the end when
                  >most of our men, supplies, and horses were...well...by then we was flat
                  >wore out!! And Streight...."Not the first time a bluff beat a
                  >straight."
                  > Regards,
                  > Steve

                  First, let me apologize for having taken so long to offer a substantive
                  response. Part of the intervening time, I spent at the conference; part of
                  the time, I spent on finishing my novel about Grierson, all 474 typescript
                  pages of it [whew!], which I have been researching for more than five years
                  and writing for the last six months, and which I now am getting ready to
                  seek an agent and/or publisher for, before starting on the next book in the
                  series, about Chick-Chatt; and part of the time, I spent puzzling over why
                  you felt you had to take such a hammer to me for what I thought was a fairly
                  straightforward question.

                  It's not that I don't admire the wit in your reply: "Streight" - "straight":
                  a real a thigh-slapper. I fear I've heard it before, but that surely does
                  not diminish its charm.

                  Nor is it just that stichomythic repartee over the Net is not really my
                  strong suit, although -- if I read aright the tone of your post -- that may
                  have been what you had in mind. Foolish *moi* had assumed that manners
                  might take precedence over badinage, but what do I know?

                  No, the real puzzler for me in your response was the contrast between how
                  cavalierly authoritative, how redolent of sprezzatura, you sounded, vs. how,
                  ahem, erroneous your assertions -- assumptions? -- are. I hate to be so
                  blunt; it's not my style; but I'm sorry, dear Steve, you do not have your
                  facts ... straight. In fact, concerning Grierson, you have the cause-effect
                  chain backward. To be specific:

                  * "we were too busy at Vicksburg" -- no, Vicksburg hadn't happened yet.
                  The raid was over by May 2; Grant was still moving inland, not even at
                  the Big Black yet. The siege, and preparations for averting it or
                  accommodating it, was still nearly a month away. Pemberton had not
                  yet brought himself to understand just how great the jeopardy was
                  (Johnston had, but see below).

                  * "to really pay him much attention in Mississippi" -- actually,
                  Pemberton was paying Grierson so *much* attention in Mississippi that
                  he(P) scattered his forces all over the state trying to catch Grierson
                  and begged for more bodies from Joe Johnston, who of course never sent
                  anything but shrewd tactical observations.

                  In other words, throughout the second half of April 1863, Pemberton focused
                  so heavily on the raiders, and vacuumed up so many of his troops (not just
                  cavalry) in trying to catch them, that his panic was of significant
                  assistance to Grant. Thus, Grierson's raid was resoundingly successful both
                  in its primary tactical purpose, blowing smoke and making Pemberton crazy,
                  and in its secondary and tertiary ones (2=destroying Confederate railroads,
                  wires, supplies; 3=getting out). In some respects, I would argue,
                  Grierson's raid -- along with other distractions put forth by Grant at the
                  same time (see below) -- had genuine strategic success far beyond its
                  tactical effectiveness, precisely because the raid was so instrumental in
                  bringing about the unlocking of Lincoln's "key" to the Mississippi ... and
                  that's not even counting the effect of the city's loss on the Confederacy.

                  As for your comments about Wilson and Streight, you have taken the usual
                  Confederate line on both: first, that Wilson caught "us" at a bad time,
                  therefore wasn't really a 'good' raid, and second, that Streight's was
                  clownish. You may be aware of, even if you do not give credence to, other
                  positions regarding those two. I should like to mention them here.

                  First, if value is to be awarded to a military campaign *only* if the
                  opposing forces are equal, will we not have to rewrite most of history's
                  assessments? (I pass in silence over your implication that if "we" had been
                  not quite so "flat wore out" -- not to mention under-strength because of
                  desertions -- "we" coulda been a contendah.) Second, Streight's expedition,
                  however much of a nominal failure it was, still *did* manage to tie up the
                  otherwise formidable N. B. Forrest for several weeks -- and, as I am the
                  first to concede, was key in distracting Forrest from Grierson.

                  Finally, I am unsure as to exactly what you mean when you imply -- "Actually
                  I believe they will be discussing innovative raiders" -- that Grierson was
                  *not* "innovative" and would be much obliged if you would care to explain
                  your meaning.

                  Regards,
                  Madelon E. Heatherington
                  _________________________________________________________________________
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                • csacavalier@aol.com
                  Dear Madelon, Dang....another good story ruined by the facts. Have you ever noticed that we have a tendency sometimes to sound like we are all studying
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 30, 2000
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                    Dear Madelon,
                    Dang....another good story ruined by the facts. <grin>
                    Have you ever noticed that we have a tendency sometimes to sound like we
                    are all studying for a particularly difficult bar exam? I didn't mean to
                    interrupt your studies or to gore your ox....it was just a lame attempt to
                    raise a smile. I promise I'll be more careful around them sacred bovines.
                    Think of me as moving down here to the far end of the table and I'll be the
                    one doodling in the notebook anxiously waiting for the recess bell.

                    Regards,

                    Steve
                  • M. E. Heatherington
                    Dear Stevie: Time to grow up now. Regards, Madelon ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 5, 2000
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                      Dear Stevie:
                      Time to grow up now.
                      Regards,
                      Madelon


                      >From: csacavalier@...
                      >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                      >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Cavalry raiders seminar
                      >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:52:11 EST
                      >
                      >Dear Madelon,
                      > Dang....another good story ruined by the facts. <grin>
                      > Have you ever noticed that we have a tendency sometimes to sound like
                      >we
                      >are all studying for a particularly difficult bar exam? I didn't mean to
                      >interrupt your studies or to gore your ox....it was just a lame attempt to
                      >raise a smile. I promise I'll be more careful around them sacred bovines.
                      >Think of me as moving down here to the far end of the table and I'll be the
                      >one doodling in the notebook anxiously waiting for the recess bell.
                      >
                      >Regards,
                      >
                      >Steve

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                    • M. E. Heatherington
                      Dear Stevie: Time to grow up now. Regards, Madelon ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 5, 2000
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                        Dear Stevie:
                        Time to grow up now.
                        Regards,
                        Madelon


                        >From: csacavalier@...
                        >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                        >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Cavalry raiders seminar
                        >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:52:11 EST
                        >
                        >Dear Madelon,
                        > Dang....another good story ruined by the facts. <grin>
                        > Have you ever noticed that we have a tendency sometimes to sound like
                        >we
                        >are all studying for a particularly difficult bar exam? I didn't mean to
                        >interrupt your studies or to gore your ox....it was just a lame attempt to
                        >raise a smile. I promise I'll be more careful around them sacred bovines.
                        >Think of me as moving down here to the far end of the table and I'll be the
                        >one doodling in the notebook anxiously waiting for the recess bell.
                        >
                        >Regards,
                        >
                        >Steve

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