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Re: General swapping

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  • William H Keene
    ... Halleck expected Burnside to move down toward Chattanooga around the time of Chickamauga. I don t think it was a reasonable expectation. I thought, but
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 4, 2003
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      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@m...> wrote:
      > ...
      > I may be wrong, but wasn't Burnside expected to assist Grant and
      > Thomas at Chattanooga more than he did and later he prompted
      > Sherman's forced march to his releif when none was needed?

      Halleck expected Burnside to move down toward Chattanooga around the
      time of Chickamauga. I don't think it was a reasonable expectation.
      I thought, but could be wrong, that the prompting for releif to be
      sent to Knoxville came from Lincoln.

      -Will
    • Harry Smeltzer
      Politically, I think it was important for a Union presence to be in Knoxville at the time. Important for Lincoln. Also, Burnside flat out asked Halleck what
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 4, 2003
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        Politically, I think it was important for a Union presence to be in Knoxville at the time.  Important for Lincoln.

         

        Also, Burnside flat out asked Halleck what he wanted, and as usual Old Brains gave no definitive reply.

         

        HArry

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: William H Keene [mailto:wh_keene@...]
        Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 6:12 PM
        To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: General swapping

         

        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@m...> wrote:
        > ...
        > I may be wrong, but wasn't Burnside expected to assist Grant and
        > Thomas at Chattanooga more than he did and later he prompted
        > Sherman's forced march to his releif when none was needed?

        Halleck expected Burnside to move down toward Chattanooga around the
        time of Chickamauga.  I don't think it was a reasonable expectation.
        I thought, but could be wrong, that the prompting for releif to be
        sent to Knoxville came from Lincoln.

        -Will





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      • hartshje
        I believe you are correct Will. The gang in Washington were obessessed with not losing E. Tenn. and so were hounding Grant to save Burnside. When Sherman
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 4, 2003
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          I believe you are correct Will. The gang in Washington were
          obessessed with not losing E. Tenn. and so were hounding Grant to
          save Burnside. When Sherman arrived, he was surprised to find the
          Knoxville garrison living high on the hog, and Burnside's men were
          equally shocked that they had supposedly been starving all this
          time. They certainly did not think they needed to be saved.

          Joe

          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene"
          <wh_keene@y...> wrote:
          > Halleck expected Burnside to move down toward Chattanooga around
          > the time of Chickamauga. I don't think it was a reasonable
          > expectation. I thought, but could be wrong, that the prompting
          > for releif to be sent to Knoxville came from Lincoln.
          >
          > -Will
          >
          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@m...> wrote:
          > > ...
          > > I may be wrong, but wasn't Burnside expected to assist Grant and
          > > Thomas at Chattanooga more than he did and later he prompted
          > > Sherman's forced march to his releif when none was needed?
          >
        • hank9174
          ... Fredericksburg and was under orders to take command of the Department of Missouri when he died in March, 1863 (thus giving Schofield his first big chance,
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 5, 2003
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            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Williams"
            <williams484@m...> wrote:
            > It was Couch. Sumner had left the Army of the Potomac after
            Fredericksburg and was under orders to take command of the Department
            of Missouri when he died in March, 1863 (thus giving Schofield his
            first big chance, I think).
            >
            Correct. I was confused - no longer.

            >
            > As for Rosecrans, he apparently was so rattled by events at
            Chickamauga that he was fairly ineffective commanding in Missouri in
            1864, especially when he had to deal with Price's invasion. (And I
            would not have counted him in this regard because he moved from one
            western command that happened to be east of the other western command
            he moved to. I also wouldn't count him as a failed eastern general-
            McClellan took the credit for the campaign he managed in western
            Virginia in 1861, he was displaced from that command to give Fremont
            something important to do the following year and he was later
            assigned to relieve Pope in command of the Army of the Mississippi.)
            >

            Rosecrans did a good administrative job of integrating militia,
            volunteers and regular army in alleviating the Missouri guerilla war
            in 1864. (At least from a military aspect, the civilians may care do
            differ.) He improved the system of fortified block houses, created a
            system of cavalry sweeps and 'armored' railroad cars for better
            defense against marauders.

            Rosecrans sent a force that deflected Price's 1864 raid at Ironton
            away from St. Louis into the Missouri hinterlands where it pretty
            much died of it's own weight and lack of purpose.


            HankC
          • hank9174
            ... Capitol) ... You are correct. Somewher by brain wired Sumner being sent west into Couch. How did Couch get there? I assume he was still active duty after
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 5, 2003
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              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene"
              <wh_keene@y...> wrote:

              > Couch quit the AoP in disgust at Hooker after C-ville, then got
              > assigned to command in PA (not with the AoP but in the State
              Capitol)
              > during the Gettysburg campaign, then ended up out west during 1864
              > for Nashville and then was in the North Carolina campaign as a
              > division commander (I think).
              >

              You are correct. Somewher by brain wired Sumner being sent west into
              Couch.

              How did Couch get there? I assume he was still active duty after his
              Pa service and was merely assigned west. What did he do between
              July'63 and Dec'64?
            • hank9174
              ... out ... S.D. Lee appears to be a CSA general who continued to improve after moving west. Nothing spectacular, but he commanded both infantry and cavalry in
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 5, 2003
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                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@m...> wrote:
                >
                > Much is made of Lee's ability to move sub-par performing generals
                out
                > of his theatre.
                >

                S.D. Lee appears to be a CSA general who continued to improve after
                moving west. Nothing spectacular, but he commanded both infantry and
                cavalry in a competent manner.

                Was he moved west for 'pure' reasons? His and EP Alexander's careers
                appear to be very similar in style and substance...


                HankC
              • Martin Williams
                Thanks for clearing that up. Couch commanded the Department of the Susquehanna from June 11, 1863 to December 1, 1864, when it was renamed the Department of
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 5, 2003
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                  Thanks for clearing that up.
                   
                  Couch commanded the Department of the Susquehanna from June 11, 1863 to December 1, 1864, when it was renamed the Department of Pennsylvania.   His replacement was George Cadwalader.  This is going outside of the scope of this group, but for what it is worth when Couch took command his headquarters was at Chambersburg and the Department consisted of all of Pennsylvania east of Johnstown.  By the end of the month headquarters was at Harrisburg.  Subsequently the western half of the state and part of Ohio was added to the Department.  When Cadwalader took over headquarters was announced as being at Philadelphia.
                   
                   
                   
                   



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                • hartshje
                  Couch also had a son in the Army of the Potomac who fought with a Massachusetts regiment IIRC, and was presumed killed at Cold Harbor in 1864. At least, he
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 5, 2003
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                    Couch also had a son in the Army of the Potomac who fought with a
                    Massachusetts regiment IIRC, and was presumed killed at Cold Harbor
                    in 1864. At least, he was never heard from again following that
                    battle. Maybe Couch took a leave of absence at this time, before
                    heading west (just speculating).

                    Joe

                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Williams"
                    <williams484@m...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Couch commanded the Department of the Susquehanna from June 11,
                    1863 to December 1, 1864, when it was renamed the Department of
                    Pennsylvania. His replacement was George Cadwalader. This is going
                    outside of the scope of this group, but for what it is worth when
                    Couch took command his headquarters was at Chambersburg and the
                    Department consisted of all of Pennsylvania east of Johnstown. By
                    the end of the month headquarters was at Harrisburg. Subsequently
                    the western half of the state and part of Ohio was added to the
                    Department. When Cadwalader took over headquarters was announced as
                    being at Philadelphia.
                    >
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