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Re: [civilwarwest] Re: General swapping

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  • Martin Williams
    It was Couch. Sumner had left the Army of the Potomac after Fredericksburg and was under orders to take command of the Department of Missouri when he died in
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 4, 2003
      It was Couch.  Sumner had left the Army of the Potomac after Fredericksburg and was under orders to take command of the Department of Missouri when he died in March, 1863 (thus giving Schofield his first big chance, I think).
       
      As for Rosecrans, he apparently was so rattled by events at Chickamauga that he was fairly ineffective commanding in Missouri in 1864, especially when he had to deal with Price's invasion.   (And I would not have counted him in this regard because he moved from one western command that happened to be east of the other western command he moved to.  I also wouldn't count him as a failed eastern general- McClellan took the credit for the campaign he managed in western Virginia in 1861, he was displaced from that command to give Fremont something important to do the following year and he was later assigned to relieve Pope in command of the Army of the Mississippi.)
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: hank9174
      Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 5:07 PM
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: General swapping

      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene"
      <wh_keene@y...> wrote:
      >
      > - I didn't know that Darius Couch was oft-derided.  He did continue
      > to play a big role in the east through the Gettysburg campaign.
      >

      I may have confused Couch with Sumner...

      Was Couch one of those disgusted with Hooker at C-ville or was it
      Sumner? If Couch, then I withdraw the 'oft-derided' description ;)


      HankC



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    • William H Keene
      ... continue ... Sumner died on his way to command in the west after Fredricksburg, so being sent west did not help his performance. Couch quit the AoP in
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 4, 2003
        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@m...> wrote:
        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene"
        > <wh_keene@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > - I didn't know that Darius Couch was oft-derided. He did
        continue
        > > to play a big role in the east through the Gettysburg campaign.
        > >
        >
        > I may have confused Couch with Sumner...
        >
        > Was Couch one of those disgusted with Hooker at C-ville or was it
        > Sumner? If Couch, then I withdraw the 'oft-derided' description ;)

        Sumner died on his way to command in the west after Fredricksburg, so
        being sent west did not help his performance.

        Couch quit the AoP in disgust at Hooker after C-ville, then got
        assigned to command in PA (not with the AoP but in the State Capitol)
        during the Gettysburg campaign, then ended up out west during 1864
        for Nashville and then was in the North Carolina campaign as a
        division commander (I think).

        -Will
      • William H Keene
        ... Halleck expected Burnside to move down toward Chattanooga around the time of Chickamauga. I don t think it was a reasonable expectation. I thought, but
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 4, 2003
          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@m...> wrote:
          > ...
          > I may be wrong, but wasn't Burnside expected to assist Grant and
          > Thomas at Chattanooga more than he did and later he prompted
          > Sherman's forced march to his releif when none was needed?

          Halleck expected Burnside to move down toward Chattanooga around the
          time of Chickamauga. I don't think it was a reasonable expectation.
          I thought, but could be wrong, that the prompting for releif to be
          sent to Knoxville came from Lincoln.

          -Will
        • Harry Smeltzer
          Politically, I think it was important for a Union presence to be in Knoxville at the time. Important for Lincoln. Also, Burnside flat out asked Halleck what
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 4, 2003

            Politically, I think it was important for a Union presence to be in Knoxville at the time.  Important for Lincoln.

             

            Also, Burnside flat out asked Halleck what he wanted, and as usual Old Brains gave no definitive reply.

             

            HArry

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: William H Keene [mailto:wh_keene@...]
            Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 6:12 PM
            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: General swapping

             

            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@m...> wrote:
            > ...
            > I may be wrong, but wasn't Burnside expected to assist Grant and
            > Thomas at Chattanooga more than he did and later he prompted
            > Sherman's forced march to his releif when none was needed?

            Halleck expected Burnside to move down toward Chattanooga around the
            time of Chickamauga.  I don't think it was a reasonable expectation.
            I thought, but could be wrong, that the prompting for releif to be
            sent to Knoxville came from Lincoln.

            -Will





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          • hartshje
            I believe you are correct Will. The gang in Washington were obessessed with not losing E. Tenn. and so were hounding Grant to save Burnside. When Sherman
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 4, 2003
              I believe you are correct Will. The gang in Washington were
              obessessed with not losing E. Tenn. and so were hounding Grant to
              save Burnside. When Sherman arrived, he was surprised to find the
              Knoxville garrison living high on the hog, and Burnside's men were
              equally shocked that they had supposedly been starving all this
              time. They certainly did not think they needed to be saved.

              Joe

              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene"
              <wh_keene@y...> wrote:
              > Halleck expected Burnside to move down toward Chattanooga around
              > the time of Chickamauga. I don't think it was a reasonable
              > expectation. I thought, but could be wrong, that the prompting
              > for releif to be sent to Knoxville came from Lincoln.
              >
              > -Will
              >
              > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@m...> wrote:
              > > ...
              > > I may be wrong, but wasn't Burnside expected to assist Grant and
              > > Thomas at Chattanooga more than he did and later he prompted
              > > Sherman's forced march to his releif when none was needed?
              >
            • hank9174
              ... Fredericksburg and was under orders to take command of the Department of Missouri when he died in March, 1863 (thus giving Schofield his first big chance,
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 5, 2003
                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Williams"
                <williams484@m...> wrote:
                > It was Couch. Sumner had left the Army of the Potomac after
                Fredericksburg and was under orders to take command of the Department
                of Missouri when he died in March, 1863 (thus giving Schofield his
                first big chance, I think).
                >
                Correct. I was confused - no longer.

                >
                > As for Rosecrans, he apparently was so rattled by events at
                Chickamauga that he was fairly ineffective commanding in Missouri in
                1864, especially when he had to deal with Price's invasion. (And I
                would not have counted him in this regard because he moved from one
                western command that happened to be east of the other western command
                he moved to. I also wouldn't count him as a failed eastern general-
                McClellan took the credit for the campaign he managed in western
                Virginia in 1861, he was displaced from that command to give Fremont
                something important to do the following year and he was later
                assigned to relieve Pope in command of the Army of the Mississippi.)
                >

                Rosecrans did a good administrative job of integrating militia,
                volunteers and regular army in alleviating the Missouri guerilla war
                in 1864. (At least from a military aspect, the civilians may care do
                differ.) He improved the system of fortified block houses, created a
                system of cavalry sweeps and 'armored' railroad cars for better
                defense against marauders.

                Rosecrans sent a force that deflected Price's 1864 raid at Ironton
                away from St. Louis into the Missouri hinterlands where it pretty
                much died of it's own weight and lack of purpose.


                HankC
              • hank9174
                ... Capitol) ... You are correct. Somewher by brain wired Sumner being sent west into Couch. How did Couch get there? I assume he was still active duty after
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 5, 2003
                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene"
                  <wh_keene@y...> wrote:

                  > Couch quit the AoP in disgust at Hooker after C-ville, then got
                  > assigned to command in PA (not with the AoP but in the State
                  Capitol)
                  > during the Gettysburg campaign, then ended up out west during 1864
                  > for Nashville and then was in the North Carolina campaign as a
                  > division commander (I think).
                  >

                  You are correct. Somewher by brain wired Sumner being sent west into
                  Couch.

                  How did Couch get there? I assume he was still active duty after his
                  Pa service and was merely assigned west. What did he do between
                  July'63 and Dec'64?
                • hank9174
                  ... out ... S.D. Lee appears to be a CSA general who continued to improve after moving west. Nothing spectacular, but he commanded both infantry and cavalry in
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 5, 2003
                    --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hank9174" <clarkc@m...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Much is made of Lee's ability to move sub-par performing generals
                    out
                    > of his theatre.
                    >

                    S.D. Lee appears to be a CSA general who continued to improve after
                    moving west. Nothing spectacular, but he commanded both infantry and
                    cavalry in a competent manner.

                    Was he moved west for 'pure' reasons? His and EP Alexander's careers
                    appear to be very similar in style and substance...


                    HankC
                  • Martin Williams
                    Thanks for clearing that up. Couch commanded the Department of the Susquehanna from June 11, 1863 to December 1, 1864, when it was renamed the Department of
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 5, 2003
                      Thanks for clearing that up.
                       
                      Couch commanded the Department of the Susquehanna from June 11, 1863 to December 1, 1864, when it was renamed the Department of Pennsylvania.   His replacement was George Cadwalader.  This is going outside of the scope of this group, but for what it is worth when Couch took command his headquarters was at Chambersburg and the Department consisted of all of Pennsylvania east of Johnstown.  By the end of the month headquarters was at Harrisburg.  Subsequently the western half of the state and part of Ohio was added to the Department.  When Cadwalader took over headquarters was announced as being at Philadelphia.
                       
                       
                       
                       



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                    • hartshje
                      Couch also had a son in the Army of the Potomac who fought with a Massachusetts regiment IIRC, and was presumed killed at Cold Harbor in 1864. At least, he
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 5, 2003
                        Couch also had a son in the Army of the Potomac who fought with a
                        Massachusetts regiment IIRC, and was presumed killed at Cold Harbor
                        in 1864. At least, he was never heard from again following that
                        battle. Maybe Couch took a leave of absence at this time, before
                        heading west (just speculating).

                        Joe

                        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Williams"
                        <williams484@m...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Couch commanded the Department of the Susquehanna from June 11,
                        1863 to December 1, 1864, when it was renamed the Department of
                        Pennsylvania. His replacement was George Cadwalader. This is going
                        outside of the scope of this group, but for what it is worth when
                        Couch took command his headquarters was at Chambersburg and the
                        Department consisted of all of Pennsylvania east of Johnstown. By
                        the end of the month headquarters was at Harrisburg. Subsequently
                        the western half of the state and part of Ohio was added to the
                        Department. When Cadwalader took over headquarters was announced as
                        being at Philadelphia.
                        >
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