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Re: [civilwarwest] Re: General Sir Arthur Lyon Fremantle

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  • P. B. Jones
    I look forward to Mark s answer on this as well since what I find on the web varies somewhat on exact titles. See:
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 27, 2003
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      I look forward to Mark's answer on this as well since what I find on the web varies somewhat on exact titles. 
      See: 
      http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/knighthoods.htm  on Orders of Knighthood as they apply to Military men and
       
      Best regards.
       
      Pat
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: hartshje
      Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 2:59 PM
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: General Sir Arthur Lyon Fremantle

      *snip*
      One last question
      though;  what does "KCMG" and "GCMG" stand for?


    • Mark Peters
      ... Joe and Pat, I m pleased that you found the information of some interest. The web sites Pat suggested are Commonwealth, rather than British, and rules are
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 28, 2003
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        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hartshje" <Hartshje@a...> wrote:

        Joe and Pat,

        I'm pleased that you found the information of some interest. The web
        sites Pat suggested are Commonwealth, rather than British, and rules
        are a little different with the honours accorded.

        May I suggest the following English web site, that deals with all
        issues of "wealth and snobbery". The two sections that, I believe,
        will provide most use are 'Peerage' and 'Baronetage and Etiquette'.
        It does provide a pretty good description of the history and rewards
        associated with services to the crown.

        http://www.debretts.co.uk/index.html

        I will try to clarify the situation with regards to the awards.
        Fremantle received his CB (Companion of the Bath - 3rd Grade of 'The
        Most Honourable Order of the Bath') for his services in the Sudan. I
        believe that the Bath, named in the title, is related to the spa
        City, of the same name, in the west of England. Very popular with
        the rich during the Georgian era!

        Joe was correct in the full names of the KCMG and GCMG. These would
        have been awarded for his latter administrative duties, on behalf of
        the crown.

        Best wishes,

        Mark



        > Pat,
        >
        > Very intriguing site you referenced about Knighthoods. It appears
        > that KCMG stands for Knight Commander of the Order of St. Michael
        and
        > St. George, and that GCMG stands for Grand Cross same Order. There
        > were (are still?) two Orders, the other being Order of Bath. This
        > last sounds like Saturday night at the Walton's residence :-)
        > Thanks for listing it.
        >
        > Joe
        >
        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "pbjdesigns" <jones@p...>
        wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > I look forward to Mark's answer on this as well since what I find
        > > on the web varies somewhat on exact titles.
        > > See:
        > > http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/knighthoods.htm on
        > > Orders of Knighthood as they apply to Military men, and
        > > http://www.halifax-
        > today.co.uk/specialfeatures/triviatrail/mmm215.html#13
        > >
        > > Best regards.
        > >
        > > Pat
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hartshje" <Hartshje@a...>
        > wrote:
        > > > Mark,
        > > >
        > > > Thank you for your bio. It was interesting and informative.
        > > > It's been about 20 yrs since I read Killer Angels, so I don't
        > > > remember how Fremantle was portrayed in the book, but I think
        > > > most of the characters were over sentimentalized, which carried
        > > > over into the movies. I was rather sure that the real
        Fremantle
        > > > was more "soldierly" than what I saw in the movie. One last
        > > > question though; what does "KCMG" and "GCMG" stand for?
        > > >
        > > > Regards,
        > > > Joe
      • hartshje
        Mark, Thank you for responding to our queries. I m always ready to learn about something new and interesting. Two of your replies (identical ones) came
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 28, 2003
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          Mark,

          Thank you for responding to our queries. I'm always ready to learn
          about something new and interesting. Two of your replies (identical
          ones) came through to my private email, which is fine. I tried to
          reply to you but my email was returned. I will try again at
          your "mark-peters" address. Some other subjects were included that
          are not relevant here.

          Regards,
          Joe

          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Peters" <mark-peters@m...>
          wrote:
          > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hartshje" <Hartshje@a...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Joe and Pat,
          >
          > I'm pleased that you found the information of some interest. The
          web
          > sites Pat suggested are Commonwealth, rather than British, and
          rules
          > are a little different with the honours accorded.
          >
          > May I suggest the following English web site, that deals with all
          > issues of "wealth and snobbery". The two sections that, I believe,
          > will provide most use are 'Peerage' and 'Baronetage and
          Etiquette'.
          > It does provide a pretty good description of the history and
          rewards
          > associated with services to the crown.
          >
          > http://www.debretts.co.uk/index.html
          >
          > I will try to clarify the situation with regards to the awards.
          > Fremantle received his CB (Companion of the Bath - 3rd Grade
          of 'The
          > Most Honourable Order of the Bath') for his services in the Sudan.
          I
          > believe that the Bath, named in the title, is related to the spa
          > City, of the same name, in the west of England. Very popular with
          > the rich during the Georgian era!
          >
          > Joe was correct in the full names of the KCMG and GCMG. These
          would
          > have been awarded for his latter administrative duties, on behalf
          of
          > the crown.
          >
          > Best wishes,
          >
          > Mark
          >
          >
          >
          > > Pat,
          > >
          > > Very intriguing site you referenced about Knighthoods. It
          appears
          > > that KCMG stands for Knight Commander of the Order of St. Michael
          > and
          > > St. George, and that GCMG stands for Grand Cross same Order.
          There
          > > were (are still?) two Orders, the other being Order of Bath.
          This
          > > last sounds like Saturday night at the Walton's residence :-)
          > > Thanks for listing it.
          > >
          > > Joe
          > >
          > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "pbjdesigns" <jones@p...>
          > wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I look forward to Mark's answer on this as well since what I
          find
          > > > on the web varies somewhat on exact titles.
          > > > See:
          > > > http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/knighthoods.htm on
          > > > Orders of Knighthood as they apply to Military men, and
          > > > http://www.halifax-
          > > today.co.uk/specialfeatures/triviatrail/mmm215.html#13
          > > >
          > > > Best regards.
          > > >
          > > > Pat
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hartshje" <Hartshje@a...>
          > > wrote:
          > > > > Mark,
          > > > >
          > > > > Thank you for your bio. It was interesting and informative.
          > > > > It's been about 20 yrs since I read Killer Angels, so I don't
          > > > > remember how Fremantle was portrayed in the book, but I think
          > > > > most of the characters were over sentimentalized, which
          carried
          > > > > over into the movies. I was rather sure that the real
          > Fremantle
          > > > > was more "soldierly" than what I saw in the movie. One last
          > > > > question though; what does "KCMG" and "GCMG" stand for?
          > > > >
          > > > > Regards,
          > > > > Joe
        • seophas@aol.com
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 28, 2003
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          • seophas@aol.com
            The Order of the Bath is exactly as the name implies. In Norman society members of the peerage were assigned certain tasks in the service of the ruler. The
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 28, 2003
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              The Order of the Bath is exactly as the name implies. In Norman society
              members
              of the peerage were assigned certain tasks in the service of the ruler. The
              most
              trusted accompanied him while performing his personal needs, thus Knight
              Companion of the Bath. (I believe the Privy Council has a different derivation)
              The highest Order is, of course, that of the Garter. Membership is so
              exclusive
              that a Garter Knight must die before another is created.
              An interesting tale is told regarding the creation of this Order by Edward l
              l l.
              During a ball a certain Countess is said to have lost one of her garters,
              causing
              a great deal of shock to the assemblage. To relieve her discomfort the King
              picked up the offending strip of cloth and wrapped it around his own thigh,
              saying
              "Honi Soit Que Mal Pense" (Evil to he who evil thinks). It is difficult to
              understand
              why, in the rather loose morality of those times, the simple dropping of an
              article
              of clothing would create a stir. The explanation is that it was a red garter,
              only
              worn by the concubine of the leader of a witches coven. By placing it around
              his
              thigh Edward was serving notice that this was something the court did not want
              to involve itself in.
            • P. B. Jones
              Thank you, Mark. Not a subject I expected to be encountering on CWWT. ;) I think the link within yours that was most helpful was:
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 28, 2003
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                Thank you, Mark.  Not a subject I expected to be encountering on CWWT.  ;)
                 
                I think the link within yours that was most helpful was:
                http://www.debretts.co.uk/etiquette/orders_and_decorations.html concerning British Orders and Decorations.  . 
                 
                Best regards.
                 
                Pat
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 4:37 AM
                Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: General Sir Arthur Lyon Fremantle

                --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "hartshje" <Hartshje@a...> wrote:

                Joe and Pat,

                I'm pleased that you found the information of some interest.  The web
                sites Pat suggested are Commonwealth, rather than British, and rules
                are a little different with the honours accorded.

                May I suggest the following English web site, that deals with all
                issues of "wealth and snobbery".  The two sections that, I believe,
                will provide most use are 'Peerage' and 'Baronetage and Etiquette'. 
                It does provide a pretty good description of the history and rewards
                associated with services to the crown.

                http://www.debretts.co.uk/index.html

                I will try to clarify the situation with regards to the awards. 
                Fremantle received his CB (Companion of the Bath - 3rd Grade of 'The
                Most Honourable Order of the Bath') for his services in the Sudan.  I
                believe that the Bath, named in the title, is related to the spa
                City, of the same name, in the west of England.  Very popular with
                the rich during the Georgian era!

                Joe was correct in the full names of the KCMG and GCMG.  These would
                have been awarded for his latter administrative duties, on behalf of
                the crown.   

                Best wishes,
                 
                Mark
              • pbjdesigns
                Hope this doesn t/didn t confuse anyone. Obviously it s been bouncing somewhere in cyberspace since August 27th. ... on the web varies somewhat on exact
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 7, 2003
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                  Hope this doesn't/didn't confuse anyone. Obviously it's been
                  bouncing somewhere in cyberspace since August 27th.

                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "P. B. Jones" <jones@p...> wrote:
                  > I look forward to Mark's answer on this as well since what I find
                  on the web varies somewhat on exact titles.
                  > See:
                  > http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-medals/knighthoods.htm on
                  Orders of Knighthood as they apply to Military men and
                  > http://www.halifax-
                  today.co.uk/specialfeatures/triviatrail/mmm215.html#13
                  >
                  > Best regards.
                  >
                  > Pat
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: hartshje
                  > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 2:59 PM
                  > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: General Sir Arthur Lyon Fremantle
                  >
                  >
                  > *snip*
                  > One last question
                  > though; what does "KCMG" and "GCMG" stand for?
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