Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: "Well toward the northern end of Missionary Ridge"

Expand Messages
  • William H Keene
    ... Sure it is. Advances were typically led by skirmishers. This was standard practice. ... Since Sherman secured the heights down to but not including
    Message 1 of 156 , Aug 3 9:15 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "josepharose" <josepharose@y...>
      wrote:
      > ...
      > "Skirmishing" is not the same as "advancing."

      Sure it is. Advances were typically led by skirmishers. This was
      standard practice.


      > ...
      > Think of it this way: "about" a certain point might mean within 1/4
      > mile or so, depending on the circumstances. If a river or other
      > major obstacle is between you and the destination, it effectively
      > means that you are not nearly as "about."

      Since Sherman secured the heights down to but not including Tunnel
      Hill, seems like "about" to me. The valley turned out to not be such
      a major obstacle.


      > Fine. From wherever Sherman started, he came up short.

      It has been apparent that this is your opinion. And it appears that
      no matter what Sherman did he would come up short for you.


      > Sherman was supposed "to secure the heights from the northern
      > extremity to about the railroad tunnel before the enemy can
      > concentrate against him." He didn't.

      And I contend that he did since he secured an important part of the
      heights before the enemy concentrated against him.


      > No, after Sherman "secure[d] the heights from the northern
      extremity
      > to about the railroad tunnel," the ridge was to be "carried," and
      > only afterwards was he ordered that "[f]arther movements will then
      > depend on those of the enemy. Sherman did not do what he was
      > supposed to do.

      From my understanding of the orders "secure the heights from the
      northern extremity to about the railroad tunnel" and "the ridge
      carried" are the same concept.


      > Granger was to do what Geary did on the southern end.

      Since Sherman already had men to do this, I once again point out that
      this seems like an odd plan.


      > ...
      > No. Sherman was *supposed* to attack southward alomg the ridge.
      > Granger was to be parallel with him but lower on the near slope.
      > Thomas was not supposed to attack eastward.

      So you claim, though Grant claimed otherwise.


      > Thomas' juncture was to be made with Sherman, "making your advance
      > well toward the northern end of Missionary Ridge." The plan
      > directed him towards Tunnel Hill.

      Sure, in a general sense. But the plan did not direct him TO Tunnel
      Hill.


      > Roughly a third. It would take a finer analysis--and more defined
      > terms--to determine this. You also discounted Baird.


      So now it takes a finer analysis. Hadn't you done that before in
      order to arrive at your "facts" or are you now admitting it is "an
      opinion"?

      And I don't think Baird should be counted. I don;t veen think the
      rest of Howard's force should be counter, but I was trying to be
      accomadating. So maybe we should count Dodge and Osterhaus too. How
      about Hulrbut and McPherson too cause I know you want to get this
      fraction as low as possible.



      > The skirmishers started earlier, but Sherman was ordered instead
      > to, "attack the enemy at the point most advantageous from your
      > position at early dawn to-morrow morning." That's "attack," and
      > not "skirmish."

      How does one determine what is "the point most advantageous"?
      How does one determine the position of the enemy? During the civil
      war this was done by sending forward a skirmish line in front of your
      assualt force. Even when the enemy position was known, skimish lines
      often preceded the assualt force.


      > Before the attack, there is no indication whatsoever that Grant
      > expected Orchard Knob would be carried or held.

      Nor that Thomas considered it either. But I would expect that both
      would have thought about it since it was a key spot to moving in that
      direction.

      -Will
    • William H Keene
      ... Sure it is. Advances were typically led by skirmishers. This was standard practice. ... Since Sherman secured the heights down to but not including
      Message 156 of 156 , Aug 3 9:15 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "josepharose" <josepharose@y...>
        wrote:
        > ...
        > "Skirmishing" is not the same as "advancing."

        Sure it is. Advances were typically led by skirmishers. This was
        standard practice.


        > ...
        > Think of it this way: "about" a certain point might mean within 1/4
        > mile or so, depending on the circumstances. If a river or other
        > major obstacle is between you and the destination, it effectively
        > means that you are not nearly as "about."

        Since Sherman secured the heights down to but not including Tunnel
        Hill, seems like "about" to me. The valley turned out to not be such
        a major obstacle.


        > Fine. From wherever Sherman started, he came up short.

        It has been apparent that this is your opinion. And it appears that
        no matter what Sherman did he would come up short for you.


        > Sherman was supposed "to secure the heights from the northern
        > extremity to about the railroad tunnel before the enemy can
        > concentrate against him." He didn't.

        And I contend that he did since he secured an important part of the
        heights before the enemy concentrated against him.


        > No, after Sherman "secure[d] the heights from the northern
        extremity
        > to about the railroad tunnel," the ridge was to be "carried," and
        > only afterwards was he ordered that "[f]arther movements will then
        > depend on those of the enemy. Sherman did not do what he was
        > supposed to do.

        From my understanding of the orders "secure the heights from the
        northern extremity to about the railroad tunnel" and "the ridge
        carried" are the same concept.


        > Granger was to do what Geary did on the southern end.

        Since Sherman already had men to do this, I once again point out that
        this seems like an odd plan.


        > ...
        > No. Sherman was *supposed* to attack southward alomg the ridge.
        > Granger was to be parallel with him but lower on the near slope.
        > Thomas was not supposed to attack eastward.

        So you claim, though Grant claimed otherwise.


        > Thomas' juncture was to be made with Sherman, "making your advance
        > well toward the northern end of Missionary Ridge." The plan
        > directed him towards Tunnel Hill.

        Sure, in a general sense. But the plan did not direct him TO Tunnel
        Hill.


        > Roughly a third. It would take a finer analysis--and more defined
        > terms--to determine this. You also discounted Baird.


        So now it takes a finer analysis. Hadn't you done that before in
        order to arrive at your "facts" or are you now admitting it is "an
        opinion"?

        And I don't think Baird should be counted. I don;t veen think the
        rest of Howard's force should be counter, but I was trying to be
        accomadating. So maybe we should count Dodge and Osterhaus too. How
        about Hulrbut and McPherson too cause I know you want to get this
        fraction as low as possible.



        > The skirmishers started earlier, but Sherman was ordered instead
        > to, "attack the enemy at the point most advantageous from your
        > position at early dawn to-morrow morning." That's "attack," and
        > not "skirmish."

        How does one determine what is "the point most advantageous"?
        How does one determine the position of the enemy? During the civil
        war this was done by sending forward a skirmish line in front of your
        assualt force. Even when the enemy position was known, skimish lines
        often preceded the assualt force.


        > Before the attack, there is no indication whatsoever that Grant
        > expected Orchard Knob would be carried or held.

        Nor that Thomas considered it either. But I would expect that both
        would have thought about it since it was a key spot to moving in that
        direction.

        -Will
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.