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Cavalry raiders seminar

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  • jim@gwe.net
    Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar in Richmond on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as well as Mosby and Wilson,
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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      Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar in Richmond
      on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as well as Mosby and
      Wilson, presented by Jeff Wert, Dr. Brian Steele Wills, Dr. James Ramage,
      and Edwin C. Bearss (who wrote Forrest at Bryce's Crossroads). The seminar
      is being presented by the Pamplin Park people. Sounds like it ought to be
      worthwhile.

      Jim
    • jim@gwe.net
      Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar in Richmond on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as well as Mosby and Wilson,
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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        Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar in Richmond
        on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as well as Mosby and
        Wilson, presented by Jeff Wert, Dr. Brian Steele Wills, Dr. James Ramage,
        and Edwin C. Bearss (who wrote Forrest at Bryce's Crossroads). The seminar
        is being presented by the Pamplin Park people. Sounds like it ought to be
        worthwhile.

        Jim
      • M. E. Heatherington
        Dear Group: ... A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows: 1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a passing way,
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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          Dear Group:

          On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:16:51, <jim@...> wrote:

          >Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar
          >in Richmond on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as
          >well as Mosby and >Wilson, presented by Jeff Wert, Dr. Brian
          >Steele Wills, Dr. James Ramage, and Edwin C. Bearss (who wrote
          >Forrest at Bryce's Crossroads). The seminar is being presented by
          >the Pamplin Park people. Sounds like it ought to be worthwhile.

          A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows:

          1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a
          passing way, or is it entirely Confederate? (The Union Col. B. H. Grierson
          is my special project right now. Am much interested in him, but also in the
          pushy Wilson and the hapless Streight.)

          2. What about the mechanics of the conference, e.g., where in Richmond?
          what cost? where/how to register? who benefits/sponsors?

          3. Forgive my ignorance, but who is/are "the Pamplin Park people"? Is there
          a way to get hold of them directly: a Web site, a phone number?

          ...and, while we're at it, what about "American Military University"
          (www.amunet.edu)? Anybody know anything about it?

          Yours, with interest,
          Madelon
          _________________________________________________________________________
          Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

          Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
          http://profiles.msn.com
        • M. E. Heatherington
          Dear Group: ... A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows: 1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a passing way,
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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            Dear Group:

            On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:16:51, <jim@...> wrote:

            >Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar
            >in Richmond on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as
            >well as Mosby and >Wilson, presented by Jeff Wert, Dr. Brian
            >Steele Wills, Dr. James Ramage, and Edwin C. Bearss (who wrote
            >Forrest at Bryce's Crossroads). The seminar is being presented by
            >the Pamplin Park people. Sounds like it ought to be worthwhile.

            A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows:

            1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a
            passing way, or is it entirely Confederate? (The Union Col. B. H. Grierson
            is my special project right now. Am much interested in him, but also in the
            pushy Wilson and the hapless Streight.)

            2. What about the mechanics of the conference, e.g., where in Richmond?
            what cost? where/how to register? who benefits/sponsors?

            3. Forgive my ignorance, but who is/are "the Pamplin Park people"? Is there
            a way to get hold of them directly: a Web site, a phone number?

            ...and, while we're at it, what about "American Military University"
            (www.amunet.edu)? Anybody know anything about it?

            Yours, with interest,
            Madelon
            _________________________________________________________________________
            Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

            Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
            http://profiles.msn.com
          • jim@gwe.net
            Wilson s Alabama raid will also be covered. Info on the conference at: www.pamplinpark.org/events.html I believe it is $150 per person for the two days which
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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              Wilson's Alabama raid will also be covered. Info on the conference at:
              www.pamplinpark.org/events.html

              I believe it is $150 per person for the two days which includes all meals
              and a narrated bus trip that follows JEB Stuart's path around McClellan.

              Jim

              Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Cavalry raiders seminar


              > Dear Group:
              >
              > On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:16:51, <jim@...> wrote:
              >
              > >Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar
              > >in Richmond on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as
              > >well as Mosby and >Wilson, presented by Jeff Wert, Dr. Brian
              > >Steele Wills, Dr. James Ramage, and Edwin C. Bearss (who wrote
              > >Forrest at Bryce's Crossroads). The seminar is being presented by
              > >the Pamplin Park people. Sounds like it ought to be worthwhile.
              >
              > A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows:
              >
              > 1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a
              > passing way, or is it entirely Confederate? (The Union Col. B. H.
              Grierson
              > is my special project right now. Am much interested in him, but also in
              the
              > pushy Wilson and the hapless Streight.)
              >
              > 2. What about the mechanics of the conference, e.g., where in Richmond?
              > what cost? where/how to register? who benefits/sponsors?
              >
              > 3. Forgive my ignorance, but who is/are "the Pamplin Park people"? Is
              there
              > a way to get hold of them directly: a Web site, a phone number?
              >
              > ...and, while we're at it, what about "American Military University"
              > (www.amunet.edu)? Anybody know anything about it?
              >
              > Yours, with interest,
              > Madelon
              > _________________________________________________________________________
              > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
              >
              > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
              > http://profiles.msn.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • jim@gwe.net
              Wilson s Alabama raid will also be covered. Info on the conference at: www.pamplinpark.org/events.html I believe it is $150 per person for the two days which
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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                Wilson's Alabama raid will also be covered. Info on the conference at:
                www.pamplinpark.org/events.html

                I believe it is $150 per person for the two days which includes all meals
                and a narrated bus trip that follows JEB Stuart's path around McClellan.

                Jim

                Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Cavalry raiders seminar


                > Dear Group:
                >
                > On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:16:51, <jim@...> wrote:
                >
                > >Is anyone planning to attend the two day cavalry raiders seminar
                > >in Richmond on Oct. 21/22? Forrest, and Morgan will be topics as
                > >well as Mosby and >Wilson, presented by Jeff Wert, Dr. Brian
                > >Steele Wills, Dr. James Ramage, and Edwin C. Bearss (who wrote
                > >Forrest at Bryce's Crossroads). The seminar is being presented by
                > >the Pamplin Park people. Sounds like it ought to be worthwhile.
                >
                > A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows:
                >
                > 1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a
                > passing way, or is it entirely Confederate? (The Union Col. B. H.
                Grierson
                > is my special project right now. Am much interested in him, but also in
                the
                > pushy Wilson and the hapless Streight.)
                >
                > 2. What about the mechanics of the conference, e.g., where in Richmond?
                > what cost? where/how to register? who benefits/sponsors?
                >
                > 3. Forgive my ignorance, but who is/are "the Pamplin Park people"? Is
                there
                > a way to get hold of them directly: a Web site, a phone number?
                >
                > ...and, while we're at it, what about "American Military University"
                > (www.amunet.edu)? Anybody know anything about it?
                >
                > Yours, with interest,
                > Madelon
                > _________________________________________________________________________
                > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
                >
                > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
                > http://profiles.msn.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • jim@gwe.net
                Just to make it easy, here is the announcement from Pamplin Park s web page: Pamplin Historical Park Announces Symposium Cavalry Raiders and Guerrillas will
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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                  Just to make it easy, here is the announcement from Pamplin Park's web page:


                  Pamplin Historical Park Announces Symposium

                  "Cavalry Raiders and Guerrillas" will be the theme of the 4th annual Pamplin
                  Historical Park Symposium, October 21 and 22 in Richmond, Virginia. The
                  symposium will be held at the Holiday Inn Central.

                  The introduction into cavalry doctrine of large-scale mounted raids is one
                  of the least recognized innovations of the American Civil War. Gen. J.E.B.
                  Stuart generally receives credit for this change in the use of the mounted
                  arm, though other leaders such as Nathan Bedford Forrest, John Hunt Morgan,
                  Benjamin Grierson, George Stoneman and James H. Wilson helped perfect the
                  science by war's end.

                  The event will feature lectures by some of the leading authorities on the
                  subject. Speakers and their topics are: Edwin C. Bearss, "Wilson's Alabama
                  Raid"; Dr. Steven Davis, "Civil War Cavalry Raids: Just What Did They
                  Achieve?"; Jeffrey D. Wert, "Mosby's Rangers"; Dr. Brian Steel Wills,
                  "Nathan Bedford Forrest"; Dr. James A Ramage, "John Hunt Morgan: Confederate
                  Raider and Folk Hero."

                  The symposium will also feature a bus tour of J.E.B. Stuart's ride around
                  McClellan. The tour will be led by Ed Bearss and A. Wilson Greene.

                  Cost for the symposium is $150 per person and includes meals. A special room
                  rate of $59 is available at the Holiday Inn Central (804-359-9441). For
                  symposium information or reservations, call toll free 1-877-PAMPLIN.
                • jim@gwe.net
                  Just to make it easy, here is the announcement from Pamplin Park s web page: Pamplin Historical Park Announces Symposium Cavalry Raiders and Guerrillas will
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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                    Just to make it easy, here is the announcement from Pamplin Park's web page:


                    Pamplin Historical Park Announces Symposium

                    "Cavalry Raiders and Guerrillas" will be the theme of the 4th annual Pamplin
                    Historical Park Symposium, October 21 and 22 in Richmond, Virginia. The
                    symposium will be held at the Holiday Inn Central.

                    The introduction into cavalry doctrine of large-scale mounted raids is one
                    of the least recognized innovations of the American Civil War. Gen. J.E.B.
                    Stuart generally receives credit for this change in the use of the mounted
                    arm, though other leaders such as Nathan Bedford Forrest, John Hunt Morgan,
                    Benjamin Grierson, George Stoneman and James H. Wilson helped perfect the
                    science by war's end.

                    The event will feature lectures by some of the leading authorities on the
                    subject. Speakers and their topics are: Edwin C. Bearss, "Wilson's Alabama
                    Raid"; Dr. Steven Davis, "Civil War Cavalry Raids: Just What Did They
                    Achieve?"; Jeffrey D. Wert, "Mosby's Rangers"; Dr. Brian Steel Wills,
                    "Nathan Bedford Forrest"; Dr. James A Ramage, "John Hunt Morgan: Confederate
                    Raider and Folk Hero."

                    The symposium will also feature a bus tour of J.E.B. Stuart's ride around
                    McClellan. The tour will be led by Ed Bearss and A. Wilson Greene.

                    Cost for the symposium is $150 per person and includes meals. A special room
                    rate of $59 is available at the Holiday Inn Central (804-359-9441). For
                    symposium information or reservations, call toll free 1-877-PAMPLIN.
                  • David Woodbury
                    ... Madelon, Pamplin Park is the new, privately funded Civil War park near Petersburg. Its grounds present some of the best surviving trenches from the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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                      At 2:41 PM -0400 9/30/00, M. E. Heatherington wrote:
                      >3. Forgive my ignorance, but who is/are "the Pamplin Park people"? Is there
                      >a way to get hold of them directly: a Web site, a phone number?

                      Madelon,

                      Pamplin Park is the new, privately funded Civil War park near
                      Petersburg. Its grounds present some of the best surviving trenches
                      from the Petersburg lines, and their big attraction is the National
                      Museum of the Civil War Soldier. It's a pretty impressive place, with
                      first-rate historians on staff (e.g., Arthur Bergeron and A. Wilson
                      Greene).

                      Grierson is mentioned in the seminar literature, but not specifically
                      after a speaker's name as a topic. Maybe Steven Davis will talk about
                      him. Looks like it's all Confederate except Bearss is talking about
                      Wilson's Raid (to Selma).

                      http://www.pamplinpark.org/

                      From the web site:

                      Pamplin Historical Park Announces Symposium

                      "Cavalry Raiders and Guerrillas" will be the theme of the 4th annual
                      Pamplin Historical Park Symposium,
                      October 21 and 22 in Richmond, Virginia. The symposium will be held
                      at the Holiday Inn Central.

                      The introduction into cavalry doctrine of large-scale mounted raids
                      is one of the least recognized innovations of the American Civil War.
                      Gen. J.E.B. Stuart generally receives credit for this change in the
                      use of the mounted arm, though other leaders such as Nathan Bedford
                      Forrest, John Hunt Morgan, Benjamin Grierson, George Stoneman and
                      James H. Wilson helped perfect the science by war's end.

                      The event will feature lectures by some of the leading authorities on
                      the subject. Speakers and their topics are: Edwin C. Bearss,
                      "Wilson's Alabama Raid"; Dr. Steven Davis, "Civil War Cavalry Raids:
                      Just What Did They Achieve?"; Jeffrey D. Wert, "Mosby's Rangers"; Dr.
                      Brian Steel Wills, "Nathan Bedford Forrest"; Dr. James A Ramage,
                      "John Hunt Morgan: Confederate Raider and Folk Hero."

                      The symposium will also feature a bus tour of J.E.B. Stuart's ride
                      around McClellan. The tour will be led by Ed Bearss and A. Wilson
                      Greene.

                      Cost for the symposium is $150 per person and includes meals. A
                      special room rate of $59 is available at the Holiday Inn Central
                      (804-359-9441). For symposium information or reservations, call toll
                      free
                      1-877-PAMPLIN.
                    • David Woodbury
                      ... Madelon, Pamplin Park is the new, privately funded Civil War park near Petersburg. Its grounds present some of the best surviving trenches from the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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                        At 2:41 PM -0400 9/30/00, M. E. Heatherington wrote:
                        >3. Forgive my ignorance, but who is/are "the Pamplin Park people"? Is there
                        >a way to get hold of them directly: a Web site, a phone number?

                        Madelon,

                        Pamplin Park is the new, privately funded Civil War park near
                        Petersburg. Its grounds present some of the best surviving trenches
                        from the Petersburg lines, and their big attraction is the National
                        Museum of the Civil War Soldier. It's a pretty impressive place, with
                        first-rate historians on staff (e.g., Arthur Bergeron and A. Wilson
                        Greene).

                        Grierson is mentioned in the seminar literature, but not specifically
                        after a speaker's name as a topic. Maybe Steven Davis will talk about
                        him. Looks like it's all Confederate except Bearss is talking about
                        Wilson's Raid (to Selma).

                        http://www.pamplinpark.org/

                        From the web site:

                        Pamplin Historical Park Announces Symposium

                        "Cavalry Raiders and Guerrillas" will be the theme of the 4th annual
                        Pamplin Historical Park Symposium,
                        October 21 and 22 in Richmond, Virginia. The symposium will be held
                        at the Holiday Inn Central.

                        The introduction into cavalry doctrine of large-scale mounted raids
                        is one of the least recognized innovations of the American Civil War.
                        Gen. J.E.B. Stuart generally receives credit for this change in the
                        use of the mounted arm, though other leaders such as Nathan Bedford
                        Forrest, John Hunt Morgan, Benjamin Grierson, George Stoneman and
                        James H. Wilson helped perfect the science by war's end.

                        The event will feature lectures by some of the leading authorities on
                        the subject. Speakers and their topics are: Edwin C. Bearss,
                        "Wilson's Alabama Raid"; Dr. Steven Davis, "Civil War Cavalry Raids:
                        Just What Did They Achieve?"; Jeffrey D. Wert, "Mosby's Rangers"; Dr.
                        Brian Steel Wills, "Nathan Bedford Forrest"; Dr. James A Ramage,
                        "John Hunt Morgan: Confederate Raider and Folk Hero."

                        The symposium will also feature a bus tour of J.E.B. Stuart's ride
                        around McClellan. The tour will be led by Ed Bearss and A. Wilson
                        Greene.

                        Cost for the symposium is $150 per person and includes meals. A
                        special room rate of $59 is available at the Holiday Inn Central
                        (804-359-9441). For symposium information or reservations, call toll
                        free
                        1-877-PAMPLIN.
                      • csacavalier@aol.com
                        In a message dated 09/30/2000 11:43:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, meheatherington@hotmail.com writes:
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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                          In a message dated 09/30/2000 11:43:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                          meheatherington@... writes:

                          << A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows:
                          1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a
                          passing way, or is it entirely Confederate? (The Union Col. B. H. Grierson
                          is my special project right now. Am much interested in him, but also in the
                          pushy Wilson and the hapless Streight.)>>

                          Dear Madelon,
                          Actually I believe they will be discussing innovative raiders. Colonel
                          Grierson's success was largely dependent upon the fact that we were too busy
                          at Vicksburg to really pay him much attention in Mississippi. Wilson did
                          have an excellent raid...toward the end when most of our men, supplies, and
                          horses were...well...by then we was flat wore out!! And Streight...."Not the
                          first time a bluff beat a straight."

                          Regards,

                          Steve
                        • csacavalier@aol.com
                          In a message dated 09/30/2000 11:43:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, meheatherington@hotmail.com writes:
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 30, 2000
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                            In a message dated 09/30/2000 11:43:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
                            meheatherington@... writes:

                            << A few questions about this seminar, for anybody who knows:
                            1. Are any *Union* cavalry raiders likely to be covered, in more than a
                            passing way, or is it entirely Confederate? (The Union Col. B. H. Grierson
                            is my special project right now. Am much interested in him, but also in the
                            pushy Wilson and the hapless Streight.)>>

                            Dear Madelon,
                            Actually I believe they will be discussing innovative raiders. Colonel
                            Grierson's success was largely dependent upon the fact that we were too busy
                            at Vicksburg to really pay him much attention in Mississippi. Wilson did
                            have an excellent raid...toward the end when most of our men, supplies, and
                            horses were...well...by then we was flat wore out!! And Streight...."Not the
                            first time a bluff beat a straight."

                            Regards,

                            Steve
                          • M. E. Heatherington
                            In a message dated Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:11:51 EDT, wrote [responding to a question of mine about the cavalry conference at Pamplin Park,
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 28, 2000
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                              In a message dated Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:11:51 EDT, <csacavalier@...>
                              wrote [responding to a question of mine about the cavalry conference at
                              Pamplin Park, namely, would there be any discussion of *Union* cavalry at
                              the conference, specifically of Grierson or Wilson or even the hapless
                              Streight. (Answer, by the way: yes, but not much; it was mostly focused on
                              Eastern Confederate cavalry.)]:

                              > Dear Madelon,
                              > Actually I believe they will be discussing innovative raiders.
                              >Colonel Grierson's success was largely dependent upon the fact that we
                              >were too busy at Vicksburg to really pay him much attention in
                              >Mississippi. Wilson did have an excellent raid...toward the end when
                              >most of our men, supplies, and horses were...well...by then we was flat
                              >wore out!! And Streight...."Not the first time a bluff beat a
                              >straight."
                              > Regards,
                              > Steve

                              First, let me apologize for having taken so long to offer a substantive
                              response. Part of the intervening time, I spent at the conference; part of
                              the time, I spent on finishing my novel about Grierson, all 474 typescript
                              pages of it [whew!], which I have been researching for more than five years
                              and writing for the last six months, and which I now am getting ready to
                              seek an agent and/or publisher for, before starting on the next book in the
                              series, about Chick-Chatt; and part of the time, I spent puzzling over why
                              you felt you had to take such a hammer to me for what I thought was a fairly
                              straightforward question.

                              It's not that I don't admire the wit in your reply: "Streight" - "straight":
                              a real a thigh-slapper. I fear I've heard it before, but that surely does
                              not diminish its charm.

                              Nor is it just that stichomythic repartee over the Net is not really my
                              strong suit, although -- if I read aright the tone of your post -- that may
                              have been what you had in mind. Foolish *moi* had assumed that manners
                              might take precedence over badinage, but what do I know?

                              No, the real puzzler for me in your response was the contrast between how
                              cavalierly authoritative, how redolent of sprezzatura, you sounded, vs. how,
                              ahem, erroneous your assertions -- assumptions? -- are. I hate to be so
                              blunt; it's not my style; but I'm sorry, dear Steve, you do not have your
                              facts ... straight. In fact, concerning Grierson, you have the cause-effect
                              chain backward. To be specific:

                              * "we were too busy at Vicksburg" -- no, Vicksburg hadn't happened yet.
                              The raid was over by May 2; Grant was still moving inland, not even at
                              the Big Black yet. The siege, and preparations for averting it or
                              accommodating it, was still nearly a month away. Pemberton had not
                              yet brought himself to understand just how great the jeopardy was
                              (Johnston had, but see below).

                              * "to really pay him much attention in Mississippi" -- actually,
                              Pemberton was paying Grierson so *much* attention in Mississippi that
                              he(P) scattered his forces all over the state trying to catch Grierson
                              and begged for more bodies from Joe Johnston, who of course never sent
                              anything but shrewd tactical observations.

                              In other words, throughout the second half of April 1863, Pemberton focused
                              so heavily on the raiders, and vacuumed up so many of his troops (not just
                              cavalry) in trying to catch them, that his panic was of significant
                              assistance to Grant. Thus, Grierson's raid was resoundingly successful both
                              in its primary tactical purpose, blowing smoke and making Pemberton crazy,
                              and in its secondary and tertiary ones (2=destroying Confederate railroads,
                              wires, supplies; 3=getting out). In some respects, I would argue,
                              Grierson's raid -- along with other distractions put forth by Grant at the
                              same time (see below) -- had genuine strategic success far beyond its
                              tactical effectiveness, precisely because the raid was so instrumental in
                              bringing about the unlocking of Lincoln's "key" to the Mississippi ... and
                              that's not even counting the effect of the city's loss on the Confederacy.

                              As for your comments about Wilson and Streight, you have taken the usual
                              Confederate line on both: first, that Wilson caught "us" at a bad time,
                              therefore wasn't really a 'good' raid, and second, that Streight's was
                              clownish. You may be aware of, even if you do not give credence to, other
                              positions regarding those two. I should like to mention them here.

                              First, if value is to be awarded to a military campaign *only* if the
                              opposing forces are equal, will we not have to rewrite most of history's
                              assessments? (I pass in silence over your implication that if "we" had been
                              not quite so "flat wore out" -- not to mention under-strength because of
                              desertions -- "we" coulda been a contendah.) Second, Streight's expedition,
                              however much of a nominal failure it was, still *did* manage to tie up the
                              otherwise formidable N. B. Forrest for several weeks -- and, as I am the
                              first to concede, was key in distracting Forrest from Grierson.

                              Finally, I am unsure as to exactly what you mean when you imply -- "Actually
                              I believe they will be discussing innovative raiders" -- that Grierson was
                              *not* "innovative" and would be much obliged if you would care to explain
                              your meaning.

                              Regards,
                              Madelon E. Heatherington
                              _________________________________________________________________________
                              Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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                            • M. E. Heatherington
                              In a message dated Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:11:51 EDT, wrote [responding to a question of mine about the cavalry conference at Pamplin Park,
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 28, 2000
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                                In a message dated Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:11:51 EDT, <csacavalier@...>
                                wrote [responding to a question of mine about the cavalry conference at
                                Pamplin Park, namely, would there be any discussion of *Union* cavalry at
                                the conference, specifically of Grierson or Wilson or even the hapless
                                Streight. (Answer, by the way: yes, but not much; it was mostly focused on
                                Eastern Confederate cavalry.)]:

                                > Dear Madelon,
                                > Actually I believe they will be discussing innovative raiders.
                                >Colonel Grierson's success was largely dependent upon the fact that we
                                >were too busy at Vicksburg to really pay him much attention in
                                >Mississippi. Wilson did have an excellent raid...toward the end when
                                >most of our men, supplies, and horses were...well...by then we was flat
                                >wore out!! And Streight...."Not the first time a bluff beat a
                                >straight."
                                > Regards,
                                > Steve

                                First, let me apologize for having taken so long to offer a substantive
                                response. Part of the intervening time, I spent at the conference; part of
                                the time, I spent on finishing my novel about Grierson, all 474 typescript
                                pages of it [whew!], which I have been researching for more than five years
                                and writing for the last six months, and which I now am getting ready to
                                seek an agent and/or publisher for, before starting on the next book in the
                                series, about Chick-Chatt; and part of the time, I spent puzzling over why
                                you felt you had to take such a hammer to me for what I thought was a fairly
                                straightforward question.

                                It's not that I don't admire the wit in your reply: "Streight" - "straight":
                                a real a thigh-slapper. I fear I've heard it before, but that surely does
                                not diminish its charm.

                                Nor is it just that stichomythic repartee over the Net is not really my
                                strong suit, although -- if I read aright the tone of your post -- that may
                                have been what you had in mind. Foolish *moi* had assumed that manners
                                might take precedence over badinage, but what do I know?

                                No, the real puzzler for me in your response was the contrast between how
                                cavalierly authoritative, how redolent of sprezzatura, you sounded, vs. how,
                                ahem, erroneous your assertions -- assumptions? -- are. I hate to be so
                                blunt; it's not my style; but I'm sorry, dear Steve, you do not have your
                                facts ... straight. In fact, concerning Grierson, you have the cause-effect
                                chain backward. To be specific:

                                * "we were too busy at Vicksburg" -- no, Vicksburg hadn't happened yet.
                                The raid was over by May 2; Grant was still moving inland, not even at
                                the Big Black yet. The siege, and preparations for averting it or
                                accommodating it, was still nearly a month away. Pemberton had not
                                yet brought himself to understand just how great the jeopardy was
                                (Johnston had, but see below).

                                * "to really pay him much attention in Mississippi" -- actually,
                                Pemberton was paying Grierson so *much* attention in Mississippi that
                                he(P) scattered his forces all over the state trying to catch Grierson
                                and begged for more bodies from Joe Johnston, who of course never sent
                                anything but shrewd tactical observations.

                                In other words, throughout the second half of April 1863, Pemberton focused
                                so heavily on the raiders, and vacuumed up so many of his troops (not just
                                cavalry) in trying to catch them, that his panic was of significant
                                assistance to Grant. Thus, Grierson's raid was resoundingly successful both
                                in its primary tactical purpose, blowing smoke and making Pemberton crazy,
                                and in its secondary and tertiary ones (2=destroying Confederate railroads,
                                wires, supplies; 3=getting out). In some respects, I would argue,
                                Grierson's raid -- along with other distractions put forth by Grant at the
                                same time (see below) -- had genuine strategic success far beyond its
                                tactical effectiveness, precisely because the raid was so instrumental in
                                bringing about the unlocking of Lincoln's "key" to the Mississippi ... and
                                that's not even counting the effect of the city's loss on the Confederacy.

                                As for your comments about Wilson and Streight, you have taken the usual
                                Confederate line on both: first, that Wilson caught "us" at a bad time,
                                therefore wasn't really a 'good' raid, and second, that Streight's was
                                clownish. You may be aware of, even if you do not give credence to, other
                                positions regarding those two. I should like to mention them here.

                                First, if value is to be awarded to a military campaign *only* if the
                                opposing forces are equal, will we not have to rewrite most of history's
                                assessments? (I pass in silence over your implication that if "we" had been
                                not quite so "flat wore out" -- not to mention under-strength because of
                                desertions -- "we" coulda been a contendah.) Second, Streight's expedition,
                                however much of a nominal failure it was, still *did* manage to tie up the
                                otherwise formidable N. B. Forrest for several weeks -- and, as I am the
                                first to concede, was key in distracting Forrest from Grierson.

                                Finally, I am unsure as to exactly what you mean when you imply -- "Actually
                                I believe they will be discussing innovative raiders" -- that Grierson was
                                *not* "innovative" and would be much obliged if you would care to explain
                                your meaning.

                                Regards,
                                Madelon E. Heatherington
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                              • csacavalier@aol.com
                                Dear Madelon, Dang....another good story ruined by the facts. Have you ever noticed that we have a tendency sometimes to sound like we are all studying
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 30, 2000
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                                  Dear Madelon,
                                  Dang....another good story ruined by the facts. <grin>
                                  Have you ever noticed that we have a tendency sometimes to sound like we
                                  are all studying for a particularly difficult bar exam? I didn't mean to
                                  interrupt your studies or to gore your ox....it was just a lame attempt to
                                  raise a smile. I promise I'll be more careful around them sacred bovines.
                                  Think of me as moving down here to the far end of the table and I'll be the
                                  one doodling in the notebook anxiously waiting for the recess bell.

                                  Regards,

                                  Steve
                                • csacavalier@aol.com
                                  Dear Madelon, Dang....another good story ruined by the facts. Have you ever noticed that we have a tendency sometimes to sound like we are all studying
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 30, 2000
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                                    Dear Madelon,
                                    Dang....another good story ruined by the facts. <grin>
                                    Have you ever noticed that we have a tendency sometimes to sound like we
                                    are all studying for a particularly difficult bar exam? I didn't mean to
                                    interrupt your studies or to gore your ox....it was just a lame attempt to
                                    raise a smile. I promise I'll be more careful around them sacred bovines.
                                    Think of me as moving down here to the far end of the table and I'll be the
                                    one doodling in the notebook anxiously waiting for the recess bell.

                                    Regards,

                                    Steve
                                  • M. E. Heatherington
                                    Dear Stevie: Time to grow up now. Regards, Madelon ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Nov 5, 2000
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                                      Dear Stevie:
                                      Time to grow up now.
                                      Regards,
                                      Madelon


                                      >From: csacavalier@...
                                      >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                                      >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                                      >Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Cavalry raiders seminar
                                      >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:52:11 EST
                                      >
                                      >Dear Madelon,
                                      > Dang....another good story ruined by the facts. <grin>
                                      > Have you ever noticed that we have a tendency sometimes to sound like
                                      >we
                                      >are all studying for a particularly difficult bar exam? I didn't mean to
                                      >interrupt your studies or to gore your ox....it was just a lame attempt to
                                      >raise a smile. I promise I'll be more careful around them sacred bovines.
                                      >Think of me as moving down here to the far end of the table and I'll be the
                                      >one doodling in the notebook anxiously waiting for the recess bell.
                                      >
                                      >Regards,
                                      >
                                      >Steve

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                                    • M. E. Heatherington
                                      Dear Stevie: Time to grow up now. Regards, Madelon ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Nov 5, 2000
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                                        Dear Stevie:
                                        Time to grow up now.
                                        Regards,
                                        Madelon


                                        >From: csacavalier@...
                                        >Reply-To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                                        >To: civilwarwest@egroups.com
                                        >Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Cavalry raiders seminar
                                        >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:52:11 EST
                                        >
                                        >Dear Madelon,
                                        > Dang....another good story ruined by the facts. <grin>
                                        > Have you ever noticed that we have a tendency sometimes to sound like
                                        >we
                                        >are all studying for a particularly difficult bar exam? I didn't mean to
                                        >interrupt your studies or to gore your ox....it was just a lame attempt to
                                        >raise a smile. I promise I'll be more careful around them sacred bovines.
                                        >Think of me as moving down here to the far end of the table and I'll be the
                                        >one doodling in the notebook anxiously waiting for the recess bell.
                                        >
                                        >Regards,
                                        >
                                        >Steve

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