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Longstreet in the West

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  • thecoys@together.net
    There was some talk about Ol Pete going west in hopes to assume command of the western army. I am currently reading Wert s biography on Longstreet. In this
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 26, 2000
      There was some talk about Ol' Pete going west in hopes to assume command
      of the western army. I am currently reading Wert's biography on
      Longstreet. In this book Wert makes the case that Longstreet befriended
      both Beauregard and Joe Johnston while at Manassas at the expense of and
      much to the chagrin of Jeff. Davis. If this is the case did Longstreet
      have real expectations to assume command of the AoT? And, if given
      command, would it have made any difference since we have Wauhatchie (sp)
      and Knoxville as examples?

      In F, C, & L

      Kevin S. Coy
    • thecoys@together.net
      There was some talk about Ol Pete going west in hopes to assume command of the western army. I am currently reading Wert s biography on Longstreet. In this
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 26, 2000
        There was some talk about Ol' Pete going west in hopes to assume command
        of the western army. I am currently reading Wert's biography on
        Longstreet. In this book Wert makes the case that Longstreet befriended
        both Beauregard and Joe Johnston while at Manassas at the expense of and
        much to the chagrin of Jeff. Davis. If this is the case did Longstreet
        have real expectations to assume command of the AoT? And, if given
        command, would it have made any difference since we have Wauhatchie (sp)
        and Knoxville as examples?

        In F, C, & L

        Kevin S. Coy
      • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
        Kevin: In This Terrible Sound, Cozzens seems to imply that Longstreet privately expressed a desire to be put in command over Bragg at Chattanooga (this was
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 26, 2000
          Kevin:
          In "This Terrible Sound," Cozzens seems to imply that Longstreet
          privately expressed a desire to be put in command over Bragg at
          Chattanooga (this was prior to Longstreet going west, Chickamauga,
          etc.), but publicly would not suggest it (for fear he would be seen as
          ambitious?). IIRC, he was publicly in favor of someone superceding
          Bragg. As to Longstreet's failures, they may have resulted as much from
          his tendency to sulk (which may have been his greatest failing) as to an
          outright inability to exercise independent command. Of course, I'm not
          well-versed on Knoxville or Wauhatchie so he may well have made serious
          blunders in those cases. Someone else may want to comment on those
          battles. At the risk of starting another Grant vs. Thomas type of
          thread, I do have the impression that Longstreet's legacy has been
          seriously damaged by those who were unhappy with his reconciliation with
          Grant, et al. I think this is an interesting point, given that he was
          good friends before the war (and related to Grant by marriage) with many
          of the same Northerners he was conciliatory to after the war.
          Andy

          thecoys@... wrote:
          >
          > There was some talk about Ol' Pete going west in hopes to assume command
          > of the western army. I am currently reading Wert's biography on
          > Longstreet. In this book Wert makes the case that Longstreet befriended
          > both Beauregard and Joe Johnston while at Manassas at the expense of and
          > much to the chagrin of Jeff. Davis. If this is the case did Longstreet
          > have real expectations to assume command of the AoT? And, if given
          > command, would it have made any difference since we have Wauhatchie (sp)
          > and Knoxville as examples?
          >
          > In F, C, & L
          >
          > Kevin S. Coy
          >
        • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
          Kevin: In This Terrible Sound, Cozzens seems to imply that Longstreet privately expressed a desire to be put in command over Bragg at Chattanooga (this was
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 26, 2000
            Kevin:
            In "This Terrible Sound," Cozzens seems to imply that Longstreet
            privately expressed a desire to be put in command over Bragg at
            Chattanooga (this was prior to Longstreet going west, Chickamauga,
            etc.), but publicly would not suggest it (for fear he would be seen as
            ambitious?). IIRC, he was publicly in favor of someone superceding
            Bragg. As to Longstreet's failures, they may have resulted as much from
            his tendency to sulk (which may have been his greatest failing) as to an
            outright inability to exercise independent command. Of course, I'm not
            well-versed on Knoxville or Wauhatchie so he may well have made serious
            blunders in those cases. Someone else may want to comment on those
            battles. At the risk of starting another Grant vs. Thomas type of
            thread, I do have the impression that Longstreet's legacy has been
            seriously damaged by those who were unhappy with his reconciliation with
            Grant, et al. I think this is an interesting point, given that he was
            good friends before the war (and related to Grant by marriage) with many
            of the same Northerners he was conciliatory to after the war.
            Andy

            thecoys@... wrote:
            >
            > There was some talk about Ol' Pete going west in hopes to assume command
            > of the western army. I am currently reading Wert's biography on
            > Longstreet. In this book Wert makes the case that Longstreet befriended
            > both Beauregard and Joe Johnston while at Manassas at the expense of and
            > much to the chagrin of Jeff. Davis. If this is the case did Longstreet
            > have real expectations to assume command of the AoT? And, if given
            > command, would it have made any difference since we have Wauhatchie (sp)
            > and Knoxville as examples?
            >
            > In F, C, & L
            >
            > Kevin S. Coy
            >
          • jrayelliot@aol.com
            I have read somewhere that Davis wanted R.E. Lee to go west and had even suggested it . Lee did not want to go west. I think Longstreet may have been a
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 26, 2000
              I have read somewhere that Davis wanted R.E. Lee to go west and had even "suggested it". Lee did not want to go west. I think Longstreet may have been a compromise.

              Another interesting thing, Longstreet's legacy may have been damaged more by his statements about Lee not being able to think of the war in broader terms than Virginia. That got him into serious hot water with most southerners.
            • jrayelliot@aol.com
              I have read somewhere that Davis wanted R.E. Lee to go west and had even suggested it . Lee did not want to go west. I think Longstreet may have been a
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 26, 2000
                I have read somewhere that Davis wanted R.E. Lee to go west and had even "suggested it". Lee did not want to go west. I think Longstreet may have been a compromise.

                Another interesting thing, Longstreet's legacy may have been damaged more by his statements about Lee not being able to think of the war in broader terms than Virginia. That got him into serious hot water with most southerners.
              • The Coys
                Wow. Some of you have some interesting top ten lists. I think they show we all have some bias and favorites. :) I m curious how on a couple of lists,
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
                  Wow.  Some of you have some interesting "top ten" lists.  I think they show we all have some bias and favorites. :)  I'm curious how on a couple of lists, Longstreet made it as one of the best western generals.  I believe Rick Moody and Tom Mix had him on their lists.  I like Ol' Pete in Ashley Wilkes' eastern army, LOL.  But what did he do that was so great in the western theater.  He had a couple of good hours at Chickamauga but did kinda poorly after that, IMHO.
                   
                  Why was Longstreet on the lists?
                   
                  Kevin S. Coy  
                • Rick Moody
                  I put Longstreet and Hood on my list based upon last months discussions on Chickamauga. Dave Powell convinced me that their performance was exemplary that day
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
                    I put Longstreet and Hood on my list based upon last
                    months discussions on Chickamauga. Dave Powell
                    convinced me that their performance was exemplary that
                    day and with out their quick action Chickamauga could
                    have had a much different result. Longstreet was in
                    the west from Chickamauga until just before
                    Chattanooga. I am also of the opinion that had
                    Longstreet stayed out west with JEJohnston. The
                    battles on the way to Atlanta would have been much
                    more difficult. Longstreet and Johnston would have
                    been a very tough nut to crack.

                    I could be wrong but there is a first time for
                    everything! :-) But opinions are opinions and are
                    totaly subjective.

                    Rick Moody




                    --- The Coys <thecoys@...> wrote:

                    > Wow. Some of you have some interesting "top ten"
                    > lists. I think they show we all have some bias and
                    > favorites. :) I'm curious how on a couple of lists,
                    > Longstreet made it as one of the best western
                    > generals. I believe Rick Moody and Tom Mix had him
                    > on their lists. I like Ol' Pete in Ashley Wilkes'
                    > eastern army, LOL. But what did he do that was so
                    > great in the western theater. He had a couple of
                    > good hours at Chickamauga but did kinda poorly after
                    > that, IMHO.
                    >
                    > Why was Longstreet on the lists?
                    >
                    > Kevin S. Coy




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                  • Tom Mix
                    I considered Hood as well but he is such an extremist in his accomplishments and abject failures. On the balance I had to say his negatives as an army
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
                      I considered Hood as well but he is such an extremist in his
                      accomplishments and abject failures. On the balance I had to say his
                      negatives as an army commander out weighed his success as a divisional
                      commander.
                      Longstreet was one of the true stars regardless of where he was.
                      Tom

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Rick Moody
                      Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 10:57 AM
                      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Longstreet in the West

                      I put Longstreet and Hood on my list based upon last
                      months discussions on Chickamauga. Dave Powell
                      convinced me that their performance was exemplary that
                      day and with out their quick action Chickamauga could
                      have had a much different result. Longstreet was in
                      the west from Chickamauga until just before
                      Chattanooga. I am also of the opinion that had
                      Longstreet stayed out west with JEJohnston. The
                      battles on the way to Atlanta would have been much
                      more difficult. Longstreet and Johnston would have
                      been a very tough nut to crack.

                      I could be wrong but there is a first time for
                      everything! :-) But opinions are opinions and are
                      totaly subjective.

                      Rick Moody




                      --- The Coys <thecoys@...> wrote:

                      > Wow. Some of you have some interesting "top ten"
                      > lists. I think they show we all have some bias and
                      > favorites. :) I'm curious how on a couple of lists,
                      > Longstreet made it as one of the best western
                      > generals. I believe Rick Moody and Tom Mix had him
                      > on their lists. I like Ol' Pete in Ashley Wilkes'
                      > eastern army, LOL. But what did he do that was so
                      > great in the western theater. He had a couple of
                      > good hours at Chickamauga but did kinda poorly after
                      > that, IMHO.
                      >
                      > Why was Longstreet on the lists?
                      >
                      > Kevin S. Coy




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                    • Steve Saultz
                      .... In strong agreement with you Sir. Tho I m not one to really study what-ifs ...{ I d drive myself crazy...with Amer. Indian history alone...LOL...} And
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
                        ....   In strong agreement with you Sir. Tho I'm not one to really study "what-ifs"...{ I'd drive myself crazy...with Amer. Indian history alone...LOL...}  And tho I have my personal complaints towards Gen. Longstreet for being slow...But he being the "defensive-offensive" tactical commander that he was...I too think that together, Sherman would have been stopped in his tracks.
                          Respectfully , Capt. McCracken

                        Rick Moody <r_moody@...> wrote:
                        I put Longstreet and Hood on my list based upon last
                        months discussions on Chickamauga.  Dave Powell
                        convinced me that their performance was exemplary that
                        day and with out their quick action Chickamauga could
                        have had a much different result.  Longstreet was in
                        the west from Chickamauga until just before
                        Chattanooga.  I am also of the opinion that had
                        Longstreet stayed out west with JEJohnston.  The
                        battles on the way to Atlanta would have been much
                        more difficult.  Longstreet and Johnston would have
                        been a very tough nut to crack.

                        I could be wrong but there is a first time for
                        everything! :-)  But opinions are opinions and are
                        totaly subjective.

                        Rick Moody




                        --- The Coys <thecoys@...> wrote:

                        > Wow.  Some of you have some interesting "top ten"
                        > lists.  I think they show we all have some bias and
                        > favorites. :)  I'm curious how on a couple of lists,
                        > Longstreet made it as one of the best western
                        > generals.  I believe Rick Moody and Tom Mix had him
                        > on their lists.  I like Ol' Pete in Ashley Wilkes'
                        > eastern army, LOL.  But what did he do that was so
                        > great in the western theater.  He had a couple of
                        > good hours at Chickamauga but did kinda poorly after
                        > that, IMHO.
                        >
                        > Why was Longstreet on the lists?
                        >
                        > Kevin S. Coy 



                                   
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                      • Rick Moody
                        I too struggle with Hoods accomplishments especially after he took over Johnstons army. I also think he was following orders from Davis to strike the enemy
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
                          I too struggle with Hoods accomplishments especially
                          after he took over Johnstons army. I also think he
                          was following orders from Davis to strike the enemy
                          where they are. It was foolishness but he still had
                          to follow orders. I place more blame on Davis than
                          Hood. There was no braver man in the war than Hood.
                          If I was to take someone off of my list it would be
                          Hood but it is already cast in concrete so I can't do
                          it!

                          Rick Moody




                          --- Tom Mix <tmix@...> wrote:

                          > I considered Hood as well but he is such an
                          > extremist in his
                          > accomplishments and abject failures. On the balance
                          > I had to say his
                          > negatives as an army commander out weighed his
                          > success as a divisional
                          > commander.
                          > Longstreet was one of the true stars regardless of
                          > where he was.
                          > Tom
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                          > On Behalf Of Rick Moody
                          > Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 10:57 AM
                          > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Longstreet in the West
                          >
                          > I put Longstreet and Hood on my list based upon last
                          > months discussions on Chickamauga. Dave Powell
                          > convinced me that their performance was exemplary
                          > that
                          > day and with out their quick action Chickamauga
                          > could
                          > have had a much different result. Longstreet was in
                          > the west from Chickamauga until just before
                          > Chattanooga. I am also of the opinion that had
                          > Longstreet stayed out west with JEJohnston. The
                          > battles on the way to Atlanta would have been much
                          > more difficult. Longstreet and Johnston would have
                          > been a very tough nut to crack.
                          >
                          > I could be wrong but there is a first time for
                          > everything! :-) But opinions are opinions and are
                          > totaly subjective.
                          >
                          > Rick Moody
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- The Coys <thecoys@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Wow. Some of you have some interesting "top ten"
                          > > lists. I think they show we all have some bias
                          > and
                          > > favorites. :) I'm curious how on a couple of
                          > lists,
                          > > Longstreet made it as one of the best western
                          > > generals. I believe Rick Moody and Tom Mix had
                          > him
                          > > on their lists. I like Ol' Pete in Ashley Wilkes'
                          > > eastern army, LOL. But what did he do that was so
                          > > great in the western theater. He had a couple of
                          > > good hours at Chickamauga but did kinda poorly
                          > after
                          > > that, IMHO.
                          > >
                          > > Why was Longstreet on the lists?
                          > >
                          > > Kevin S. Coy
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Tom Mix
                          Good point. I don t know if I can come up with an adequate explanation for myself but to me those hours at Chick were pretty outstanding. True he did not have
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005

                            Good point.

                            I don’t know if I can come up with an adequate explanation for myself but to me those hours at Chick were pretty outstanding. True he did not have outstanding moments at Lookout Mt. but I had to bring his total experience into play.  He left the West pretty much after Lookout however looking at his accomplishments in total and I think he deserves to be on the list.  It may be predicated on a “what if” for the West but I do think he would have done quite well if allowed to stay in the Western Theater. 

                            At Chick he saw a weak spot and hit it while it was there.  No consultations or permission requests, he command judgment and had a remarkable accomplishment.  Reading a situation correctly and reacting quickly accordingly are strong characteristics of leadership.  Old Pete exhibited these throughout his career and remarkably accurately at Chickamauga. I think this would have been extended as such if he had remained in the West if Bragg was removed as he should have. I think Longstreet would have wanted to replace Bragg but I think he would have responded well to Joe Johnston too.

                            That is my best shot between pitches on the game on ESPN.

                            Tom

                             

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of The Coys
                            Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 6:38 AM
                            To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [civilwarwest] Longstreet in the West

                             

                            Wow.  Some of you have some interesting "top ten" lists.  I think they show we all have some bias and favorites. :)  I'm curious how on a couple of lists, Longstreet made it as one of the best western generals.  I believe Rick Moody and Tom Mix had him on their lists.  I like Ol' Pete in Ashley Wilkes' eastern army, LOL.  But what did he do that was so great in the western theater.  He had a couple of good hours at Chickamauga but did kinda poorly after that, IMHO.

                             

                            Why was Longstreet on the lists?

                             

                            Kevin S. Coy  

                             

                          • oneplez
                            I don t remember is this was a Western list or an Inclusive one. I assumed the latter. I included Longstreet becasue of Chickamauga and because of his
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
                              I don't remember is this was a "Western" list or an "Inclusive" one.
                              I assumed the latter.

                              I included Longstreet becasue of Chickamauga and because of his
                              record in the east. I included Hooker despite his record in the east.

                              Don


                              +--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Mix" <tmix@i...> wrote:
                              > Good point.
                              >
                              > I don't know if I can come up with an adequate explanation for
                              myself
                              > but to me those hours at Chick were pretty outstanding. True he did
                              not
                              > have outstanding moments at Lookout Mt. but I had to bring his total
                              > experience into play. He left the West pretty much after Lookout
                              > however looking at his accomplishments in total and I think he
                              deserves
                              > to be on the list. It may be predicated on a "what if" for the
                              West but
                              > I do think he would have done quite well if allowed to stay in the
                              > Western Theater.
                              >
                              > At Chick he saw a weak spot and hit it while it was there. No
                              > consultations or permission requests, he command judgment and had a
                              > remarkable accomplishment. Reading a situation correctly and
                              reacting
                              > quickly accordingly are strong characteristics of leadership. Old
                              Pete
                              > exhibited these throughout his career and remarkably accurately at
                              > Chickamauga. I think this would have been extended as such if he had
                              > remained in the West if Bragg was removed as he should have. I think
                              > Longstreet would have wanted to replace Bragg but I think he would
                              have
                              > responded well to Joe Johnston too.
                              >
                              > That is my best shot between pitches on the game on ESPN.
                              >
                              > Tom
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
                              > On Behalf Of The Coys
                              > Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 6:38 AM
                              > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [civilwarwest] Longstreet in the West
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Wow. Some of you have some interesting "top ten" lists. I think
                              they
                              > show we all have some bias and favorites. :) I'm curious how on a
                              > couple of lists, Longstreet made it as one of the best western
                              generals.
                              > I believe Rick Moody and Tom Mix had him on their lists. I like Ol'
                              > Pete in Ashley Wilkes' eastern army, LOL. But what did he do that
                              was
                              > so great in the western theater. He had a couple of good hours at
                              > Chickamauga but did kinda poorly after that, IMHO.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Why was Longstreet on the lists?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Kevin S. Coy
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • banbruner@aol.com
                              In a message dated 7/4/2005 2:50:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@insightbb.com writes: Good point. I don’t know if I can come up with an adequate
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
                                In a message dated 7/4/2005 2:50:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tmix@... writes:

                                Good point.

                                I don’t know if I can come up with an adequate explanation for myself but to me those hours at Chick were pretty outstanding. True he did not have outstanding moments at Lookout Mt. but I had to bring his total experience into play.  He left the West pretty much after Lookout however looking at his accomplishments in total and I think he deserves to be on the list.  It may be predicated on a “what if” for the West but I do think he would have done quite well if allowed to stay in the Western Theater. 

                                At Chick he saw a weak spot and hit it while it was there.  No consultations or permission requests, he command judgment and had a remarkable accomplishment.  Reading a situation correctly and reacting quickly accordingly are strong characteristics of leadership.  Old Pete exhibited these throughout his career and remarkably accurately at Chickamauga. I think this would have been extended as such if he had remained in the West if Bragg was removed as he should have. I think Longstreet would have wanted to replace Bragg but I think he would have responded well to Joe Johnston too.

                                That is my best shot between pitches on the game on ESPN.

                                Tom

                                Am I confused here.  I was thinking Longstreed left Bragg before Missionary Ridge and took an independent command to Knoxville.  Where he was outmarched by the ever affable Burnside to Campbells Station and then repulsed by the same at Ft. Sanders.  Pretty much a replay of his Tide Water campaign.

                                   Whb

                                 

                                -----Original Message-----

                              • banbruner@aol.com
                                oops, I meant Lookout Mountain not Missionary Ridge. Whb
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
                                  oops, I meant Lookout Mountain not Missionary Ridge.
                                  Whb
                                • James W. Durney
                                  Take a look at: Confederate Struggle For Command: General James Longstreet and the First Corps in the West (Texas A&M University Military History Series)by
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Oct 14, 2008
                                    Take a look at: Confederate Struggle For Command: General James
                                    Longstreet and the First Corps in the West (Texas A&M University
                                    Military History Series)by Alexander Mendoza (Author)

                                    It has a good take on why Davies did not offer Longstreet command of
                                    the AoT.
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