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Cheatham's Merit

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  • LWhite64@aol.com
    With all of this talk about Cheatham getting a Corps over Cleburne and the reasons why, Ole Frank has kind of been left in the background, so what I was
    Message 1 of 6 , May 26, 2003
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      With all of this talk about Cheatham getting a Corps over Cleburne and the reasons why, Ole Frank has kind of been left in the background, so what I was thought would be worthwhile is to ask, what was Cheatham's merits for Corps command?

      Lee
    • SDE80@aol.com
      In a message dated 5/26/03 10:03:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Here s some of my thoughts, buttressed by reference to Losson s book on Cheatham and his
      Message 2 of 6 , May 26, 2003
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        In a message dated 5/26/03 10:03:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LWhite64@... writes:


        With all of this talk about Cheatham getting a Corps over Cleburne and the reasons why, Ole Frank has kind of been left in the background, so what I was thought would be worthwhile is to ask, what was Cheatham's merits for Corps command?


        Here's some of my thoughts, buttressed by reference to Losson's book on Cheatham and his division:

        1. Cheatham was senior to Cleburne.
        2.  Where Cleburne had Missionary Ridge, Ringgold Gap and Pickett's Mill, Cheatham had Perryville, a hard fight at Chickamauga, and Kennesaw Mountain.   And Cheatham's performance on Missionary Ridge in some ways was more impressive than Cleburne's.   Cleburne had the advantage of being heavily supported and being subjected to conveniently brigade sized attacks by a superior force.  Cheatham had to draw a line across the ridge perpendicular to the MLR and hold off the Federal penetration so the rest of Hardee's Corps could get off the ridge.
        3. Cheatham had better political support, although he had the emnity of Bragg just as much as Cleburne.
        4. Cheatham had Mexican War experience, while Cleburne's British army experience was fairly routine.
        5. Cheatham had more military administration experience, from service as a major general of the Tennessee militia.    

        Any comments?

        Sam Elliott

      • james2044
        ... book on ... Pickett s Mill, ... Mountain. ... more impressive ... supported and ... superior force. ... MLR and hold ... get off the ... emnity of Bragg
        Message 3 of 6 , May 26, 2003
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          > Here's some of my thoughts, buttressed by reference to Losson's
          book on
          > Cheatham and his division:
          >
          > 1. Cheatham was senior to Cleburne.
          > 2. Where Cleburne had Missionary Ridge, Ringgold Gap and
          Pickett's Mill,
          > Cheatham had Perryville, a hard fight at Chickamauga, and Kennesaw
          Mountain.
          > And Cheatham's performance on Missionary Ridge in some ways was
          more impressive
          > than Cleburne's. Cleburne had the advantage of being heavily
          supported and
          > being subjected to conveniently brigade sized attacks by a
          superior force.
          > Cheatham had to draw a line across the ridge perpendicular to the
          MLR and hold
          > off the Federal penetration so the rest of Hardee's Corps could
          get off the
          > ridge.
          > 3. Cheatham had better political support, although he had the
          emnity of Bragg
          > just as much as Cleburne.
          > 4. Cheatham had Mexican War experience, while Cleburne's British
          army
          > experience was fairly routine.
          > 5. Cheatham had more military administration experience, from
          service as a
          > major general of the Tennessee militia.
          >
          > Any comments?
          >
          > Sam Elliott

          Put that way, it seems reasonable that he would get the spot. Even
          more so with the lack of being at the Point, Irish and the arming
          the slaves paper.

          James2044

          James2044
        • carlw4514
          If this is Cheatham s merit vs Cleburne s merit, I ll refer you to Wakefield s post 3944 for the pro Cleburne side!
          Message 4 of 6 , May 26, 2003
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            If this is Cheatham's merit vs Cleburne's merit, I'll refer you to
            Wakefield's post 3944 for the pro Cleburne side!
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/message/3944

            the search function does work! it's a bear, tho.

            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, SDE80@a... wrote:
            [...]
            > 1. Cheatham was senior to Cleburne.
            > 2. Where Cleburne had Missionary Ridge, Ringgold Gap and Pickett's
            Mill,
            > Cheatham had Perryville, a hard fight at Chickamauga, and Kennesaw
            Mountain.
            > And Cheatham's performance on Missionary Ridge in some ways was more
            impressive
            > than Cleburne's. Cleburne had the advantage of being heavily
            supported and
            > being subjected to conveniently brigade sized attacks by a superior
            force.
            > Cheatham had to draw a line across the ridge perpendicular to the
            MLR and hold
            > off the Federal penetration so the rest of Hardee's Corps could get
            off the
            > ridge.
            > 3. Cheatham had better political support, although he had the emnity
            of Bragg
            > just as much as Cleburne.
            > 4. Cheatham had Mexican War experience, while Cleburne's British
            army
            > experience was fairly routine.
            > 5. Cheatham had more military administration experience, from
            service as a
            > major general of the Tennessee militia.
            >
            > Any comments?
            >
            > Sam Elliott
          • tmix
            I have always felt that Cheatham was vastly under rated and this gives some ammunition. Thanks, Sam. Tom Mix ... From: carlw4514 [mailto:carlw4514@yahoo.com]
            Message 5 of 6 , May 26, 2003
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              I have always felt that Cheatham was vastly under rated and this gives
              some ammunition. Thanks, Sam. Tom Mix

              -----Original Message-----
              From: carlw4514 [mailto:carlw4514@...]
              Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 2:52 PM
              To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Cheatham vs Cleburne? [was Cheatham's Merit]

              If this is Cheatham's merit vs Cleburne's merit, I'll refer you to
              Wakefield's post 3944 for the pro Cleburne side!
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/message/3944

              the search function does work! it's a bear, tho.

              --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, SDE80@a... wrote:
              [...]
              > 1. Cheatham was senior to Cleburne.
              > 2. Where Cleburne had Missionary Ridge, Ringgold Gap and Pickett's
              Mill,
              > Cheatham had Perryville, a hard fight at Chickamauga, and Kennesaw
              Mountain.
              > And Cheatham's performance on Missionary Ridge in some ways was more
              impressive
              > than Cleburne's. Cleburne had the advantage of being heavily
              supported and
              > being subjected to conveniently brigade sized attacks by a superior
              force.
              > Cheatham had to draw a line across the ridge perpendicular to the
              MLR and hold
              > off the Federal penetration so the rest of Hardee's Corps could get
              off the
              > ridge.
              > 3. Cheatham had better political support, although he had the emnity
              of Bragg
              > just as much as Cleburne.
              > 4. Cheatham had Mexican War experience, while Cleburne's British
              army
              > experience was fairly routine.
              > 5. Cheatham had more military administration experience, from
              service as a
              > major general of the Tennessee militia.
              >
              > Any comments?
              >
              > Sam Elliott





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            • SDE80@aol.com
              In a message dated 5/26/03 3:54:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... I read it, and he made several good points, although I don t agree with sentiment that
              Message 6 of 6 , May 26, 2003
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                In a message dated 5/26/03 3:54:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, carlw4514@... writes:


                If this is Cheatham's merit vs Cleburne's merit, I'll refer you to
                Wakefield's post 3944 for the pro Cleburne side!


                I read it, and he made several good points, although I don't agree with sentiment that Cleburne was unequalled.   No one should take my playing the devil's advocate relative to Cleburne as a denial of his effectiveness as a division commander.  But, it doesn't tear him down to acknowledge that the AOT had other effective division commanders, too, Cheatham and A. P. Stewart among them, and that there were plausible reasons, unrelated to the fact PRC was Irish or had proposed arming the slaves, for Cheatham and Stewart to be elevated over Cleburne.

                I have always thought that if Cleburne were to be really antagonized at being overslaughed, it was when the vacancy created by Hood's elevation was filled by Stephen D. Lee.  

                Sam Elliott  

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