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Re: Halleck's Order to Abandon Vicksburg Campaign

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  • Will <wh_keene@yahoo.com>
    ... move ... order ... Bovina? I beleive he would have, since he would be unwilling to go back on the movement to date from Grand Gulf/Port Gibson. (I don t
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 2, 2003
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      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "slippymississippi
      <slippymississippi@y...>" <slippymississippi@y...> wrote:
      >
      > What if Pemberton had ignored Johnston's directive to move out from
      > Bovina and attack? Grant would have received Halleck's order to
      move
      > to Port Hudson as he sat in Brownsville (?) pondering how he would
      > get across the Big Black River. Would Grant have dismissed the
      order
      > in the same fashion that he did when he received it outside
      Bovina?

      I beleive he would have, since he would be unwilling to go back on
      the movement to date from Grand Gulf/Port Gibson. (I don't think the
      issue of rank with Banks was as important a factor as Carl does).



      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "slippymississippi
      <slippymississippi@y...>" <slippymississippi@y...> wrote:
      > Not really. Grant would have crossed the Big Black easily...

      I think that is not so easy.


      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "slippymississippi
      <slippymississippi@y...>" <slippymississippi@y...> wrote:
      > Pemberton is operating without any cavalry to speak of (Wirt Adam's
      > Independent Regiment being used for close infantry support).
      > Therefore, Grant can probably pin Pemberton at
      > Bovina/Bridgeport/Messinger's with one corps and move on
      > Bush/Birdsong with the other two without Pemberton realizing he has
      > begun to move. Let's give Pemberton a fortuitous event: a local
      > rides up to tell Pemberton that Grant is moving to Birdsong/Bush in
      > force and has begun to lay a pontoon across the Big Black. The
      race
      > to Snyder's Bluff is a foot race, and Bush/Birdsong to Snyder's
      Bluff
      > is less distance than either Bovina to Snyder's Bluff or Vicksburg
      to
      > Snyder's Bluff. So let's give Pemberton a miracle and say that he
      > releases the Vicksburg garrison towards Snyder's Bluff and they
      > somehow beat Grant to the area (troops at Bovina are shifted into
      > Vicksburg to cover the city).


      Was not part of the Vicksburg garrison already at Snyder's Bluff?
      I think it likely that a battle would be fought between the Yazoo and
      the Big Black (maybe the battle of Oak Ridge PO), but I am not so
      convinced that Union gunboats would have been that important as the
      main action would have occurred along the Benton or Bridgeport
      Roads.


      ~Will

      ps HAPPY NEW YEAR to all
    • slippymississippi <slippymississippi@yah
      ... from ... would ... So he responds to Halleck that the situation has changed, and that the fall of Vicksburg is eminent? How would Halleck react to that?
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 6, 2003
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        --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Will <wh_keene@y...>"
        <wh_keene@y...> wrote:
        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "slippymississippi
        > <slippymississippi@y...>" <slippymississippi@y...> wrote:
        > >
        > > What if Pemberton had ignored Johnston's directive to move out
        from
        > > Bovina and attack? Grant would have received Halleck's order to
        > move
        > > to Port Hudson as he sat in Brownsville (?) pondering how he
        would
        > > get across the Big Black River. Would Grant have dismissed the
        > order
        > > in the same fashion that he did when he received it outside
        > Bovina?
        >
        > I beleive he would have, since he would be unwilling to go back on
        > the movement to date from Grand Gulf/Port Gibson.

        So he responds to Halleck that the situation has changed, and that
        the fall of Vicksburg is eminent? How would Halleck react to that?

        >
        >
        >
        > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "slippymississippi
        > <slippymississippi@y...>" <slippymississippi@y...> wrote:
        > > Not really. Grant would have crossed the Big Black easily...
        >
        > I think that is not so easy.

        It's very easy to cross. In a single day, Sherman crossed his entire
        corps and was well on his way to Snyder's Bluff from Bridgeport.
        McPherson and McClernand were equally successful crossing near
        Bovina. Worst case, Pemberton beats Grant to Bush & Birdsong. This
        still leaves Cox's Ferry, which Pemberton has no access to.

        > > Snyder's Bluff. So let's give Pemberton a miracle and say
        > > that he releases the Vicksburg garrison towards Snyder's Bluff
        > > and they somehow beat Grant to the area (troops at Bovina are
        > > shifted into Vicksburg to cover the city).
        >
        >
        > Was not part of the Vicksburg garrison already at Snyder's Bluff?

        A single division covering a mile of fortifications, all facing away
        from Grant.

        Here's the way I think Grant saw the campaign. Vicksburg virtually
        sits on an island, bounded by the Mississippi, the Big Black, and the
        Yazoo Rivers, and connected to Jackson by the railroad. The railroad
        had been cut, the Big Black was not viable as a line of resupply, and
        the Union held the Mississippi. Once Grant puts himself across the
        Yazoo, the fall of Vicksburg is inevitable because a force of 40,000-
        50,000 men cannot be maintained 50 miles from its base of resupply.
      • Dave Smith <dmsmith001@yahoo.com>
        ... wrote: snips ... I suspect that you meant Once Grant puts himself across the Big Black ... , unless by
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 6, 2003
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          --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "slippymississippi
          <slippymississippi@y...>" <slippymississippi@y...> wrote:

          snips
          >
          > Here's the way I think Grant saw the campaign. Vicksburg virtually
          > sits on an island, bounded by the Mississippi, the Big Black, and
          > the Yazoo Rivers, and connected to Jackson by the railroad. The
          > railroad had been cut, the Big Black was not viable as a line of
          > resupply, and the Union held the Mississippi. Once Grant puts
          > himself across the Yazoo, the fall of Vicksburg is inevitable
          > because a force of 40,000- 50,000 men cannot be maintained 50 miles
          > from its base of resupply.

          I suspect that you meant "Once Grant puts himself across the Big
          Black ...", unless by the statement you meant crossing in the
          Snyder's area (which puts him inside the Big Black as well).
          Certainly, approaching from the north, it would have been preferable
          to cross the Yazoo rather than approaching from the south, the way he
          eventually did.

          I agree with the point that once fronting Vicksburg, it was
          impossible to supply the 40-50,000 men in the garrison. Approaching
          from the south, however, and with the presense of Johnston's
          growing "Army of Relief," those strategies had to be changed. What
          seemed obvious in February had obviously changed by May.

          The key for the Confederates was to break the stranglehold on
          Vicksburg, or attempt a breakout and give up the city and the hold on
          the Mississippi.

          Dave

          Dave Smith
          Villa Hills, KY
        • slippymississippi <slippymississippi@yah
          ... virtually ... miles ... I should have said Once Grant positions himself astride the Yazoo. With Jackson s rail depot destroyed, Pemberton had to rely on
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 6, 2003
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            --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Smith <dmsmith001@y...>"
            <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:
            > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "slippymississippi
            > <slippymississippi@y...>" <slippymississippi@y...> wrote:
            >
            > snips
            > >
            > > Here's the way I think Grant saw the campaign. Vicksburg
            virtually
            > > sits on an island, bounded by the Mississippi, the Big Black, and
            > > the Yazoo Rivers, and connected to Jackson by the railroad. The
            > > railroad had been cut, the Big Black was not viable as a line of
            > > resupply, and the Union held the Mississippi. Once Grant puts
            > > himself across the Yazoo, the fall of Vicksburg is inevitable
            > > because a force of 40,000- 50,000 men cannot be maintained 50
            miles
            > > from its base of resupply.
            >
            > I suspect that you meant "Once Grant puts himself across the Big
            > Black ...", unless by the statement you meant crossing in the
            > Snyder's area (which puts him inside the Big Black as well).

            I should have said "Once Grant positions himself astride the Yazoo."
            With Jackson's rail depot destroyed, Pemberton had to rely on the
            Yazoo River for provisions for his army. With the rail line
            permanently cut, and the Yazoo supply line interdicted, the fall of
            Vicksburg is merely a formality. Pemberton would have to supply his
            entire force from a supply point fifty miles distant. Meanwhile,
            Grant would be connected to the Mississippi via Steele Bayou and Deer
            Creek, with short wagon roads for portage.
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