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Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Bragg's order to Stewart at Chickamauga September 19, ...

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  • SDE80@aol.com
    In a message dated 12/3/02 7:45:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, LWhite64@aol.com ... Lee, who thinks that, and is the evidence of the circumstantial nature you
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
      In a message dated 12/3/02 7:45:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, LWhite64@... writes:


      Well just to bring it up, but there is also a school of thought that believe that the stacking up of Brigades in Longstreet's Wing was an accident more than his planning.  The way the belief goes is that Longstreet was trying to place his ANV men in the front lines and was was trying to get them shifted around when the attack was started.  Part of the evidence for this is that Stewart's Divison did'nt have any back up nor did Hindman or Preston.  Also in this is that elements of Kershaw's Divison had been there just a short time, less than 30 Mins, when the attack was opened and elements were still arriveing as it went forward.  Just some fuel for the ole fire.



      Lee, who thinks that, and is the evidence of the circumstantial nature you mention, or is there some documentary back up?

      Sam Elliott
    • LWhite64@aol.com
      Sam, Its an idea that I have heard from several military staff groups that have come through the park before and I believe that Dr. Glenn Roberston has some
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 3, 2002
        Sam,
                Its an idea that I have heard from several military staff groups that have come through the park before and I believe that Dr. Glenn Roberston has some version of it as well, Robertson is working on a treatment of the battle and is very guarded on his sources at this time, he also has evidence that helps exonerate T. Wood from the tale of his temper getting in the way of his judgement. 

        Lee
      • Dave Smith
        Heck, Lee, given that he d been in the area of his command for what? several hours? how much planning could he have done? That he was able to organize an
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 4, 2002
          Heck, Lee, given that he'd been in the area of his command for what?
          several hours? how much "planning" could he have done?

          That he was able to organize an attack and be ready, even by 9:00 or
          so, says volumes.

          I'm always amazed in reading accounts of Chickamauga how little
          involvement Bragg's staff had with that wing of the army. You'd have
          thought, that with a new commander, just arrived on the field, and
          totally unfamiliar with the ground from the previous day's battle,
          that he'd have had all sorts of "help" there.

          Dave

          --- In civilwarwest@y..., LWhite64@a... wrote:
          > Well just to bring it up, but there is also a school of thought
          that believe
          > that the stacking up of Brigades in Longstreet's Wing was an
          accident more
          > than his planning. The way the belief goes is that Longstreet was
          trying to
          > place his ANV men in the front lines and was was trying to get them
          shifted
          > around when the attack was started. Part of the evidence for this
          is that
          > Stewart's Divison did'nt have any back up nor did Hindman or
          Preston. Also
          > in this is that elements of Kershaw's Divison had been there just a
          short
          > time, less than 30 Mins, when the attack was opened and elements
          were still
          > arriveing as it went forward. Just some fuel for the ole fire.
          >
          > Lee
        • carlw4514
          Do we really have to do higher math to figure this one out? It screams of professional jealousy, Bragg being concerned that Longstreet was going to come in and
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 4, 2002
            Do we really have to do higher math to figure this one out? It screams
            of professional jealousy, Bragg being concerned that Longstreet was
            going to come in and steal the glory. Which, ironically, with no help
            from Bragg, is exactly what he does. Bragg's behavior here, and after
            the breakthrough, is exactly what it would be if you were writing a
            script for a guy acting jealous at success and determined to ignore it
            and grabb some of the glory for himself, the war effort be damned.
            -My question is, was Longstreet that good, or was it the AoNV that was
            "that good"?

            --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:
            [...]
            > I'm always amazed in reading accounts of Chickamauga how little
            > involvement Bragg's staff had with that wing of the army. You'd have
            > thought, that with a new commander, just arrived on the field, and
            > totally unfamiliar with the ground from the previous day's battle,
            > that he'd have had all sorts of "help" there.
            >
            > Dave
            >
          • Dave Smith
            Carl, At least insofar as the setup of the second day of Chickamauga goes, I don t think there were elements of professional jealousy present, vis-a-vis Bragg
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 4, 2002
              Carl,

              At least insofar as the setup of the second day of Chickamauga goes,
              I don't think there were elements of professional jealousy present,
              vis-a-vis Bragg and Longstreet. They simply would not have known
              each other well enough to have any such feelings.

              In terms of Bragg, I simply think that we're dealing with someone who
              had a fundamental problem with attention to detail. How else can one
              even fathom how - in spite of the fact that there was a battle the
              day before - no one was sent by Bragg to Catoosa Station to shepherd
              Bragg back to the front?

              How could Bragg assign half of the army to a general not even on the
              field, supposed to lead a daylight attack?

              I wonder, at times, which was the more prevalent flaw of Bragg's in
              terms of his military capability - inattention to details, or
              inability to adapt to changing conditions? Perhaps each ought to be
              weighed equally, all things considered.

              If I were Bragg, I think I'd have had at least one trusted staff
              officer on each end of the battlefield; on the northern end, to
              ensure that the attack came off as planned, and on Longstreet's end,
              to provide assistance and help with the new guy. To the best of my
              knowledge, neither was done.

              Dave

              --- In civilwarwest@y..., "carlw4514" <carlw4514@y...> wrote:
              > Do we really have to do higher math to figure this one out? It
              screams
              > of professional jealousy, Bragg being concerned that Longstreet was
              > going to come in and steal the glory. Which, ironically, with no
              help
              > from Bragg, is exactly what he does. Bragg's behavior here, and
              after
              > the breakthrough, is exactly what it would be if you were writing a
              > script for a guy acting jealous at success and determined to ignore
              it
              > and grabb some of the glory for himself, the war effort be damned.
              > -My question is, was Longstreet that good, or was it the AoNV that
              was
              > "that good"?
              >
              > --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:
              > [...]
              > > I'm always amazed in reading accounts of Chickamauga how little
              > > involvement Bragg's staff had with that wing of the army. You'd
              have
              > > thought, that with a new commander, just arrived on the field,
              and
              > > totally unfamiliar with the ground from the previous day's
              battle,
              > > that he'd have had all sorts of "help" there.
              > >
              > > Dave
              > >
            • SDE80@aol.com
              In a message dated 12/3/02 9:57:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, LWhite64@aol.com ... Lee, where does Jim Ogden weigh in on this theory? Sam
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 4, 2002
                In a message dated 12/3/02 9:57:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, LWhite64@... writes:


                Its an idea that I have heard from several military staff groups that have come through the park before and I believe that Dr. Glenn Roberston has some version of it as well, Robertson is working on a treatment of the battle and is very guarded on his sources at this time, he also has evidence that helps exonerate T. Wood from the tale of his temper getting in the way of his judgement


                Lee, where does Jim Ogden weigh in on this theory?

                Sam
              • carlw4514
                Inasmuch as I really get the feeling that jealousy was possibly at least a sub-theme, I ll have to accept that everyone has shot that idea down. -What about
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 4, 2002
                  Inasmuch as I really get the feeling that jealousy was possibly at
                  least a sub-theme, I'll have to accept that everyone has shot that
                  idea down.
                  -What about the fact these troops were AoNV? Is it possibly the case
                  that a similar sized AoT contingent just wasnt going to pull this off,
                  had they been the ones lined up to do so, an equal of Longstreet
                  commanding?
                  [setting aside the issue of whether such a general existed]
                  Carl
                  --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:
                  > Carl,
                  >
                  > At least insofar as the setup of the second day of Chickamauga goes,
                  > I don't think there were elements of professional jealousy present,
                  > vis-a-vis Bragg and Longstreet. They simply would not have known
                  > each other well enough to have any such feelings.
                  >
                  [...]
                • aot1952
                  Gentlemen I got to thank you all- I had started to get discouraged that people were just not very interested in ever again discussing civil war military
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 4, 2002
                    Gentlemen I got to thank you all-
                    I had started to get discouraged that people were just not very
                    interested in ever again discussing civil war 'military' history on
                    the internet! Wow I have certainly missed out on a wonderfully
                    interesting discussion but I have thoughly enjoyed reviewing these
                    thought provoking postings.
                    After I give it some thought I might weigh in with some of my 'crack
                    pot' ideas about the Battle of Chickamauga, beyond the established
                    fact that the Palace Donut shoppe is far superior to Krespy Kreme
                    donuts!
                    Thanks again folks and please keep them coming sorry I have been awol-
                    - and please no more of this Army of Northern Virginia superiority
                    crap ok? LOL
                    Wakefield

                    --- In civilwarwest@y..., "carlw4514" <carlw4514@y...> wrote:
                    > Inasmuch as I really get the feeling that jealousy was possibly at
                    > least a sub-theme, I'll have to accept that everyone has shot that
                    > idea down.
                    > -What about the fact these troops were AoNV? Is it possibly the case
                    > that a similar sized AoT contingent just wasnt going to pull this
                    off,
                    > had they been the ones lined up to do so, an equal of Longstreet
                    > commanding?
                    > [setting aside the issue of whether such a general existed]
                    > Carl
                    > --- In civilwarwest@y..., "Dave Smith" <dmsmith001@y...> wrote:
                    > > Carl,
                    > >
                    > > At least insofar as the setup of the second day of Chickamauga
                    goes,
                    > > I don't think there were elements of professional jealousy
                    present,
                    > > vis-a-vis Bragg and Longstreet. They simply would not have known
                    > > each other well enough to have any such feelings.
                    > >
                    > [...]
                  • aot1952
                    Mr. Smith wrote- If I were Bragg, I think I d have had at least one trusted staff officer on each end of the battlefield; on the northern end, to ensure that
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 4, 2002
                      Mr. Smith wrote-
                      "If I were Bragg, I think I'd have had at least one trusted staff
                      officer on each end of the battlefield; on the northern end, to
                      ensure that the attack came off as planned, and on Longstreet's end,
                      to provide assistance and help with the new guy. To the best of my
                      knowledge, neither was done."
                      Sadly by this time Bragg did not even have any staff officers that
                      Bragg trusted or that trusted Bragg.
                      Wakefield
                    • LWhite64@aol.com
                      Sam, Just had a discussion with Ogden about the formation of Longstreet s Corps and he is of the opinion that it was accidental. Also to add to this is that
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 5, 2002
                        Sam,
                        Just had a discussion with Ogden about the formation of Longstreet's Corps and he is of the opinion that it was accidental. Also to add to this is that there isnt any edvidence that McLaw's Divison(Kershaw and Humphrey) was even in line behind Hood.

                        Lee
                      • Dave Smith
                        ... end, ... Cue Slim Pickens, slapping his ten-gallon hat on his thigh: Well, don t that beat all ... Subordinates he didn t trust, and staffers he didn t
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 5, 2002
                          --- In civilwarwest@y..., "aot1952" <aot1952@y...> wrote:
                          > Mr. Smith wrote-
                          > "If I were Bragg, I think I'd have had at least one trusted staff
                          > officer on each end of the battlefield; on the northern end, to
                          > ensure that the attack came off as planned, and on Longstreet's
                          end,
                          > to provide assistance and help with the new guy. To the best of my
                          > knowledge, neither was done."
                          > Sadly by this time Bragg did not even have any staff officers that
                          > Bragg trusted or that trusted Bragg.
                          > Wakefield

                          Cue Slim Pickens, slapping his ten-gallon hat on his thigh: "Well,
                          don't that beat all ..."

                          Subordinates he didn't trust, and staffers he didn't trust. It's a
                          wonder Bragg got anything done ... :-)

                          Dave
                        • Dave Smith
                          Lee, Accidental in what way? That given the time constraints, and what he found upon reaching his wing, that s what he ended up with? Or accidental insofar as
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 5, 2002
                            Lee,

                            Accidental in what way? That given the time constraints, and what he
                            found upon reaching his wing, that's what he ended up with?

                            Or accidental insofar as he started with this formation, but didn't
                            have time, or didn't take time (depending on how you interpret
                            events) to get his units deployed to carry out the en echelon attack?

                            In order to conform to Bragg's orders, divisions needed to be strung
                            out from north to south - by definition of the en echelon attack.

                            Dave

                            --- In civilwarwest@y..., LWhite64@a... wrote:
                            > Sam,
                            > Just had a discussion with Ogden about the formation of
                            Longstreet's Corps and he is of the opinion that it was accidental.
                            Also to add to this is that there isnt any edvidence that McLaw's
                            Divison(Kershaw and Humphrey) was even in line behind Hood.
                            >
                            > Lee
                          • LWhite64@aol.com
                            Accidental in that Longstreet did not plan and form the column, this isnt to be critical of Longstreet on this point, but its also not correct to give him
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 5, 2002
                              Accidental in that Longstreet did not plan and form the column, this isnt to be critical of Longstreet on this point, but its also not correct to give him credit for it either.

                              Lee
                            • hank9174
                              ... isnt to be critical of Longstreet on this point, but its also not correct to give him credit for it either. Longstreet did a good job to shift Stewart to
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 5, 2002
                                --- In civilwarwest@y..., LWhite64@a... wrote:
                                > Accidental in that Longstreet did not plan and form the column, this
                                isnt to be critical of Longstreet on this point, but its also not
                                correct to give him credit for it either.

                                Longstreet did a good job to shift Stewart to the right to firm the
                                connection to the right wing, move Hood up from the 2nd line into that
                                position in the front and draw Preston back from the extreme left to
                                reserve position behind Hindman.

                                Thus the line was firmly attached to Polk on the right, had an
                                excellent division of shock troops in a key position and a strong left
                                flank.


                                HankC
                              • LWhite64@aol.com
                                In a message dated 12/5/02 5:56:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... But the key thing is, is that these positions were largely there when Pete arrived, I would
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 5, 2002
                                  In a message dated 12/5/02 5:56:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, clarkc@... writes:

                                  Longstreet did a good job to shift Stewart to the right to firm the
                                  connection to the right wing, move Hood up from the 2nd line into that
                                  position in the front and draw Preston back from the extreme left to
                                  reserve position behind Hindman.

                                  Thus the line was firmly attached to Polk on the right, had an
                                  excellent division of shock troops in a key position and a strong left
                                  flank.



                                  But the key thing is, is that these positions were largely there when Pete arrived, I would venture that Hood and Buckner had more to do with it than Longstreet, once again no fault to him as he arrived during the night and had no idea of his troops dispositions, etc.  What you see on the CS left, is basically Divisons with a two brigade front and one being held back, this was also true on the 19th on the left and with Cheatham in the center.  Jim Ogden, the Chickamauga-Chattanooga NMP Historian, also brought up the fact that if the Confederates had tried to present a solid front their lines would have extended down to Lee and Gordon's Mill, the formation had to deal with the confines of the land north and west of the Chickamauga.

                                  Lee
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