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hobgoblins of great minds

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  • Bob Redman
    Addison, ... and ... Harbor, North, Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater). I think it is interesting to focus on what he actually did or didn t do
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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      Addison,

      At 09:48 9/1/00 -0600, you wrote:

      >He was reckless with his men and pointlessly ordered their slaughter time
      and
      >time again (Belmont, Fort Donelson, Shiloh, Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Cold
      Harbor, North, Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater).

      I think it is interesting to focus on what he actually did or didn't do on
      the various occasions, because it wasn't always the same thing.

      At Ft. Donelson he had made very little provision for supplying his men.
      They didn't eat for days and had no protection against a freezing rain.
      They got sick. Grant was in a bad situation and was stupified when Buckner
      asked for terms (after 2 of the strangest characters of the entire war -
      Floyd and Pillow - passed him the baton). Grant was criticized afterward,
      but I forget whom Grant blamed there.

      At Shiloh he negelected elementary precautions against an attack, was
      absent at first, and later blamed Prentiss for the losses and played down
      Buell's part in the rescue. He then rationalized about it 20 years later.
      He was dying, and he still couldn't tell the truth.

      Later at Corinth and Iuka he was absent, and he blamed Rosecrans for
      letting Price and Van Dorn get away.

      Before the frontal assault at Vicksburg he did no reconnaissance, and
      afterward blamed McClernand.

      He tried his best at Chattanooga to do his worst, but he couldn't get
      around the rock.

      Someone else can deal with the other battles.

      The point is, Grant on all of these occasions had something else on his
      mind other than helping as many of his men as possible survive, something
      besides merely winning the battle.

      What was this larger vision on Grant's mind which preoccupied him to the
      point that the lives of his soldiers didn't matter? Saving the Union? And
      maybe something else along with it?

      Greetings,

      Bob Redman
      Sharpshooter Green
    • Don Plezia
      Didn t he (Grant) also refuse to exchange prisoners, thereby conedmning those to death in Andersonville? Cordially, D. W. Plezia ... From:
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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        Didn't he (Grant) also refuse to exchange prisoners, thereby conedmning
        those to death in Andersonville?

        Cordially,


        D. W. Plezia
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <jaaah@...>
        To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 11:48 AM
        Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Shiloh


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        >
        > > I've been through this stuff many times before, but my reaction to
        it grows
        > > stronger as I get older. This man was a murderous, lying thug. The
        problem
        > > is that people like him are always waiting in the wings, even today,
        for
        > > the public's vigilance (such as it is) to relax.
        >
        > Well put, Mr. Redman.
        >
        >
        > > Today when I taught the chess clinic which I conduct at a local
        elementary
        > > school, I concluded my lesson about "Love thy pawns" with a story
        about
        > > Chickamauga. These kids had all heard of the Civil War, some of them
        had
        > > even heard of Grant, none of them had heard of Thomas of course.
        >
        > Heck, one must remember that Grant treated his thousands of soldiers
        as pawns, sent in to
        > be captured. He was reckless with his men and pointlessly ordered
        their slaughter time and
        > time again (Belmont, Fort Donelson, Shiloh, Wilderness, Spotsylvania,
        Cold Harbor, North
        > Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater). He had no regard for
        the life of the
        > Private Soldier and was responcible for perhaps the death of more
        private soldiers and
        > officers than any other leader in the War. He did not care because all
        he had to due was ask
        > for 15,000 men from lincolnto get 15,000 men to replace 15,000
        casualties.
        >
        > All my best,
        > Addison Hart,
        > jaaah@...
        >
        >
        >
        > Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • jaaah@tbcnet.com
        ... Well put, Mr. Redman. ... Heck, one must remember that Grant treated his thousands of soldiers as pawns, sent in to be captured. He was reckless with his
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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          > I've been through this stuff many times before, but my reaction to it grows
          > stronger as I get older. This man was a murderous, lying thug. The problem
          > is that people like him are always waiting in the wings, even today, for
          > the public's vigilance (such as it is) to relax.

          Well put, Mr. Redman.


          > Today when I taught the chess clinic which I conduct at a local elementary
          > school, I concluded my lesson about "Love thy pawns" with a story about
          > Chickamauga. These kids had all heard of the Civil War, some of them had
          > even heard of Grant, none of them had heard of Thomas of course.

          Heck, one must remember that Grant treated his thousands of soldiers as pawns, sent in to
          be captured. He was reckless with his men and pointlessly ordered their slaughter time and
          time again (Belmont, Fort Donelson, Shiloh, Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Cold Harbor, North
          Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater). He had no regard for the life of the
          Private Soldier and was responcible for perhaps the death of more private soldiers and
          officers than any other leader in the War. He did not care because all he had to due was ask
          for 15,000 men from lincolnto get 15,000 men to replace 15,000 casualties.

          All my best,
          Addison Hart,
          jaaah@...



          Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
        • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
          And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one who could do the math ).
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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            And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
            who could "do the math").


            > He did not care because all he had to due was ask
            > for 15,000 men from lincolnto get 15,000 men to replace 15,000 casualties.
            >
            > All my best,
            > Addison Hart,
            > jaaah@...
            >
            > Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
          • Bob Redman
            Addison, ... Lincoln did not have anything like a free hand in choosing and/or promoting the generals, nor did Davis. All such decisions were fraught with
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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              Addison,

              At 10:58 9/1/00 -0500, you wrote:

              >And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
              >who could "do the math").

              Lincoln did not have anything like a free hand in choosing and/or promoting
              the generals, nor did Davis. All such decisions were fraught with political
              implications. The main thrust of my argument is that there was another man
              who could have done the job for Lincoln, and I believe more quickly than it
              was done (given the record of correct advice not followed), but this man
              could not have been put in charge of all of the armies in early 1864
              without creating a lot of protest. Who knows, perhaps Thomas would have
              even refused such an offer. Who knows, maybe it was made under the table
              anyway.

              Two things are certain:

              1) The manner in which such decisions were made is much more complicated
              than we can imagine;

              2) We will never know the entire story.

              Greetings,

              Bob Redman
            • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
              I wrote it. Andy
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                I wrote it.
                Andy

                jaaah@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > > Addison,
                > >
                > > At 10:58 9/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
                > >
                > > >And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                > > >who could "do the math").
                >
                > Mr. Redman:
                > I certainly did NOT write this.
                >
                > All my best,
                > Addison Hart,
                > jaaah@...
                >
                > Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
              • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
                I wrote it. Andy
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                  I wrote it.
                  Andy

                  jaaah@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > > Addison,
                  > >
                  > > At 10:58 9/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                  > > >who could "do the math").
                  >
                  > Mr. Redman:
                  > I certainly did NOT write this.
                  >
                  > All my best,
                  > Addison Hart,
                  > jaaah@...
                  >
                  > Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                • David Mercado
                  ... Sharpshooter Green, I think a little sympathetic understanding is due here. I know you like to put yourself in the other person s place. General Grant was
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                    --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, Bob Redman <redmanb@m...> wrote:

                    > At Shiloh he negelected elementary precautions against an attack,
                    > was absent at first, and later blamed Prentiss for the losses and
                    > played down Buell's part in the rescue. He then rationalized about
                    > it 20 years later.
                    > He was dying, and he still couldn't tell the truth.
                    >
                    Sharpshooter Green, I think a little sympathetic understanding is due
                    here. I know you like to put yourself in the other person's place.
                    General Grant was dying and was in terrible pain and he was broke due
                    to bad business deals. At the end, all he wanted was to fall back to
                    the time of his greatest glory. Perhaps he was trying to make a
                    Nixon-like recovery in the people's mind from a failed presidency
                    (opinion alert). But despite all the pain, he managed to write
                    eloquently (there was no quit in this man). The only thing he did
                    wrong was not to have 'primary sources of documentation' in front of
                    him to keep him on the straight and narrow and so his writing did
                    take on some 'spin'. Mr. Woodbury would have chided him on this just
                    as he has you. Best regards, Dave
                  • David Mercado
                    ... Sharpshooter Green, I think a little sympathetic understanding is due here. I know you like to put yourself in the other person s place. General Grant was
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                      --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, Bob Redman <redmanb@m...> wrote:

                      > At Shiloh he negelected elementary precautions against an attack,
                      > was absent at first, and later blamed Prentiss for the losses and
                      > played down Buell's part in the rescue. He then rationalized about
                      > it 20 years later.
                      > He was dying, and he still couldn't tell the truth.
                      >
                      Sharpshooter Green, I think a little sympathetic understanding is due
                      here. I know you like to put yourself in the other person's place.
                      General Grant was dying and was in terrible pain and he was broke due
                      to bad business deals. At the end, all he wanted was to fall back to
                      the time of his greatest glory. Perhaps he was trying to make a
                      Nixon-like recovery in the people's mind from a failed presidency
                      (opinion alert). But despite all the pain, he managed to write
                      eloquently (there was no quit in this man). The only thing he did
                      wrong was not to have 'primary sources of documentation' in front of
                      him to keep him on the straight and narrow and so his writing did
                      take on some 'spin'. Mr. Woodbury would have chided him on this just
                      as he has you. Best regards, Dave
                    • jaaah@tbcnet.com
                      ... Mr. Redman: I certainly did NOT write this. All my best, Addison Hart, jaaah@tbcnet.com Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                        > Addison,
                        >
                        > At 10:58 9/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
                        >
                        > >And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                        > >who could "do the math").

                        Mr. Redman:
                        I certainly did NOT write this.

                        All my best,
                        Addison Hart,
                        jaaah@...



                        Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                      • jaaah@tbcnet.com
                        ... Mr. Redman: I certainly did NOT write this. All my best, Addison Hart, jaaah@tbcnet.com Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                          > Addison,
                          >
                          > At 10:58 9/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
                          >
                          > >And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                          > >who could "do the math").

                          Mr. Redman:
                          I certainly did NOT write this.

                          All my best,
                          Addison Hart,
                          jaaah@...



                          Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
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