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hobgoblins of great minds

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  • Bob Redman
    Addison, ... and ... Harbor, North, Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater). I think it is interesting to focus on what he actually did or didn t do
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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      Addison,

      At 09:48 9/1/00 -0600, you wrote:

      >He was reckless with his men and pointlessly ordered their slaughter time
      and
      >time again (Belmont, Fort Donelson, Shiloh, Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Cold
      Harbor, North, Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater).

      I think it is interesting to focus on what he actually did or didn't do on
      the various occasions, because it wasn't always the same thing.

      At Ft. Donelson he had made very little provision for supplying his men.
      They didn't eat for days and had no protection against a freezing rain.
      They got sick. Grant was in a bad situation and was stupified when Buckner
      asked for terms (after 2 of the strangest characters of the entire war -
      Floyd and Pillow - passed him the baton). Grant was criticized afterward,
      but I forget whom Grant blamed there.

      At Shiloh he negelected elementary precautions against an attack, was
      absent at first, and later blamed Prentiss for the losses and played down
      Buell's part in the rescue. He then rationalized about it 20 years later.
      He was dying, and he still couldn't tell the truth.

      Later at Corinth and Iuka he was absent, and he blamed Rosecrans for
      letting Price and Van Dorn get away.

      Before the frontal assault at Vicksburg he did no reconnaissance, and
      afterward blamed McClernand.

      He tried his best at Chattanooga to do his worst, but he couldn't get
      around the rock.

      Someone else can deal with the other battles.

      The point is, Grant on all of these occasions had something else on his
      mind other than helping as many of his men as possible survive, something
      besides merely winning the battle.

      What was this larger vision on Grant's mind which preoccupied him to the
      point that the lives of his soldiers didn't matter? Saving the Union? And
      maybe something else along with it?

      Greetings,

      Bob Redman
      Sharpshooter Green
    • Bob Redman
      Addison, ... and ... Harbor, North, Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater). I think it is interesting to focus on what he actually did or didn t do
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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        Addison,

        At 09:48 9/1/00 -0600, you wrote:

        >He was reckless with his men and pointlessly ordered their slaughter time
        and
        >time again (Belmont, Fort Donelson, Shiloh, Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Cold
        Harbor, North, Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater).

        I think it is interesting to focus on what he actually did or didn't do on
        the various occasions, because it wasn't always the same thing.

        At Ft. Donelson he had made very little provision for supplying his men.
        They didn't eat for days and had no protection against a freezing rain.
        They got sick. Grant was in a bad situation and was stupified when Buckner
        asked for terms (after 2 of the strangest characters of the entire war -
        Floyd and Pillow - passed him the baton). Grant was criticized afterward,
        but I forget whom Grant blamed there.

        At Shiloh he negelected elementary precautions against an attack, was
        absent at first, and later blamed Prentiss for the losses and played down
        Buell's part in the rescue. He then rationalized about it 20 years later.
        He was dying, and he still couldn't tell the truth.

        Later at Corinth and Iuka he was absent, and he blamed Rosecrans for
        letting Price and Van Dorn get away.

        Before the frontal assault at Vicksburg he did no reconnaissance, and
        afterward blamed McClernand.

        He tried his best at Chattanooga to do his worst, but he couldn't get
        around the rock.

        Someone else can deal with the other battles.

        The point is, Grant on all of these occasions had something else on his
        mind other than helping as many of his men as possible survive, something
        besides merely winning the battle.

        What was this larger vision on Grant's mind which preoccupied him to the
        point that the lives of his soldiers didn't matter? Saving the Union? And
        maybe something else along with it?

        Greetings,

        Bob Redman
        Sharpshooter Green
      • Don Plezia
        Didn t he (Grant) also refuse to exchange prisoners, thereby conedmning those to death in Andersonville? Cordially, D. W. Plezia ... From:
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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          Didn't he (Grant) also refuse to exchange prisoners, thereby conedmning
          those to death in Andersonville?

          Cordially,


          D. W. Plezia
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <jaaah@...>
          To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 11:48 AM
          Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Shiloh


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          >
          > > I've been through this stuff many times before, but my reaction to
          it grows
          > > stronger as I get older. This man was a murderous, lying thug. The
          problem
          > > is that people like him are always waiting in the wings, even today,
          for
          > > the public's vigilance (such as it is) to relax.
          >
          > Well put, Mr. Redman.
          >
          >
          > > Today when I taught the chess clinic which I conduct at a local
          elementary
          > > school, I concluded my lesson about "Love thy pawns" with a story
          about
          > > Chickamauga. These kids had all heard of the Civil War, some of them
          had
          > > even heard of Grant, none of them had heard of Thomas of course.
          >
          > Heck, one must remember that Grant treated his thousands of soldiers
          as pawns, sent in to
          > be captured. He was reckless with his men and pointlessly ordered
          their slaughter time and
          > time again (Belmont, Fort Donelson, Shiloh, Wilderness, Spotsylvania,
          Cold Harbor, North
          > Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater). He had no regard for
          the life of the
          > Private Soldier and was responcible for perhaps the death of more
          private soldiers and
          > officers than any other leader in the War. He did not care because all
          he had to due was ask
          > for 15,000 men from lincolnto get 15,000 men to replace 15,000
          casualties.
          >
          > All my best,
          > Addison Hart,
          > jaaah@...
          >
          >
          >
          > Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Don Plezia
          Didn t he (Grant) also refuse to exchange prisoners, thereby conedmning those to death in Andersonville? Cordially, D. W. Plezia ... From:
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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            Didn't he (Grant) also refuse to exchange prisoners, thereby conedmning
            those to death in Andersonville?

            Cordially,


            D. W. Plezia
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <jaaah@...>
            To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 11:48 AM
            Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Shiloh


            > -------------------------- eGroups
            Sponsor -------------------------~-~>
            > Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying @Backup
            > Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files.
            > Install today:
            > http://click.egroups.com/1/6347/4/_/14182/_/967819436/
            > ---------------------------------------------------------------------_
            ->
            >
            > > I've been through this stuff many times before, but my reaction to
            it grows
            > > stronger as I get older. This man was a murderous, lying thug. The
            problem
            > > is that people like him are always waiting in the wings, even today,
            for
            > > the public's vigilance (such as it is) to relax.
            >
            > Well put, Mr. Redman.
            >
            >
            > > Today when I taught the chess clinic which I conduct at a local
            elementary
            > > school, I concluded my lesson about "Love thy pawns" with a story
            about
            > > Chickamauga. These kids had all heard of the Civil War, some of them
            had
            > > even heard of Grant, none of them had heard of Thomas of course.
            >
            > Heck, one must remember that Grant treated his thousands of soldiers
            as pawns, sent in to
            > be captured. He was reckless with his men and pointlessly ordered
            their slaughter time and
            > time again (Belmont, Fort Donelson, Shiloh, Wilderness, Spotsylvania,
            Cold Harbor, North
            > Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater). He had no regard for
            the life of the
            > Private Soldier and was responcible for perhaps the death of more
            private soldiers and
            > officers than any other leader in the War. He did not care because all
            he had to due was ask
            > for 15,000 men from lincolnto get 15,000 men to replace 15,000
            casualties.
            >
            > All my best,
            > Addison Hart,
            > jaaah@...
            >
            >
            >
            > Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • jaaah@tbcnet.com
            ... Well put, Mr. Redman. ... Heck, one must remember that Grant treated his thousands of soldiers as pawns, sent in to be captured. He was reckless with his
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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              > I've been through this stuff many times before, but my reaction to it grows
              > stronger as I get older. This man was a murderous, lying thug. The problem
              > is that people like him are always waiting in the wings, even today, for
              > the public's vigilance (such as it is) to relax.

              Well put, Mr. Redman.


              > Today when I taught the chess clinic which I conduct at a local elementary
              > school, I concluded my lesson about "Love thy pawns" with a story about
              > Chickamauga. These kids had all heard of the Civil War, some of them had
              > even heard of Grant, none of them had heard of Thomas of course.

              Heck, one must remember that Grant treated his thousands of soldiers as pawns, sent in to
              be captured. He was reckless with his men and pointlessly ordered their slaughter time and
              time again (Belmont, Fort Donelson, Shiloh, Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Cold Harbor, North
              Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater). He had no regard for the life of the
              Private Soldier and was responcible for perhaps the death of more private soldiers and
              officers than any other leader in the War. He did not care because all he had to due was ask
              for 15,000 men from lincolnto get 15,000 men to replace 15,000 casualties.

              All my best,
              Addison Hart,
              jaaah@...



              Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
            • jaaah@tbcnet.com
              ... Well put, Mr. Redman. ... Heck, one must remember that Grant treated his thousands of soldiers as pawns, sent in to be captured. He was reckless with his
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                > I've been through this stuff many times before, but my reaction to it grows
                > stronger as I get older. This man was a murderous, lying thug. The problem
                > is that people like him are always waiting in the wings, even today, for
                > the public's vigilance (such as it is) to relax.

                Well put, Mr. Redman.


                > Today when I taught the chess clinic which I conduct at a local elementary
                > school, I concluded my lesson about "Love thy pawns" with a story about
                > Chickamauga. These kids had all heard of the Civil War, some of them had
                > even heard of Grant, none of them had heard of Thomas of course.

                Heck, one must remember that Grant treated his thousands of soldiers as pawns, sent in to
                be captured. He was reckless with his men and pointlessly ordered their slaughter time and
                time again (Belmont, Fort Donelson, Shiloh, Wilderness, Spotsylvania, Cold Harbor, North
                Anna, Petersburg, Strawberry Plains, The Crater). He had no regard for the life of the
                Private Soldier and was responcible for perhaps the death of more private soldiers and
                officers than any other leader in the War. He did not care because all he had to due was ask
                for 15,000 men from lincolnto get 15,000 men to replace 15,000 casualties.

                All my best,
                Addison Hart,
                jaaah@...



                Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
              • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
                And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one who could do the math ).
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                  And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                  who could "do the math").


                  > He did not care because all he had to due was ask
                  > for 15,000 men from lincolnto get 15,000 men to replace 15,000 casualties.
                  >
                  > All my best,
                  > Addison Hart,
                  > jaaah@...
                  >
                  > Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
                  And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one who could do the math ).
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                    And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                    who could "do the math").


                    > He did not care because all he had to due was ask
                    > for 15,000 men from lincolnto get 15,000 men to replace 15,000 casualties.
                    >
                    > All my best,
                    > Addison Hart,
                    > jaaah@...
                    >
                    > Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                  • Bob Redman
                    Addison, ... Lincoln did not have anything like a free hand in choosing and/or promoting the generals, nor did Davis. All such decisions were fraught with
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                      Addison,

                      At 10:58 9/1/00 -0500, you wrote:

                      >And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                      >who could "do the math").

                      Lincoln did not have anything like a free hand in choosing and/or promoting
                      the generals, nor did Davis. All such decisions were fraught with political
                      implications. The main thrust of my argument is that there was another man
                      who could have done the job for Lincoln, and I believe more quickly than it
                      was done (given the record of correct advice not followed), but this man
                      could not have been put in charge of all of the armies in early 1864
                      without creating a lot of protest. Who knows, perhaps Thomas would have
                      even refused such an offer. Who knows, maybe it was made under the table
                      anyway.

                      Two things are certain:

                      1) The manner in which such decisions were made is much more complicated
                      than we can imagine;

                      2) We will never know the entire story.

                      Greetings,

                      Bob Redman
                    • Bob Redman
                      Addison, ... Lincoln did not have anything like a free hand in choosing and/or promoting the generals, nor did Davis. All such decisions were fraught with
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                        Addison,

                        At 10:58 9/1/00 -0500, you wrote:

                        >And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                        >who could "do the math").

                        Lincoln did not have anything like a free hand in choosing and/or promoting
                        the generals, nor did Davis. All such decisions were fraught with political
                        implications. The main thrust of my argument is that there was another man
                        who could have done the job for Lincoln, and I believe more quickly than it
                        was done (given the record of correct advice not followed), but this man
                        could not have been put in charge of all of the armies in early 1864
                        without creating a lot of protest. Who knows, perhaps Thomas would have
                        even refused such an offer. Who knows, maybe it was made under the table
                        anyway.

                        Two things are certain:

                        1) The manner in which such decisions were made is much more complicated
                        than we can imagine;

                        2) We will never know the entire story.

                        Greetings,

                        Bob Redman
                      • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
                        I wrote it. Andy
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                          I wrote it.
                          Andy

                          jaaah@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > > Addison,
                          > >
                          > > At 10:58 9/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                          > > >who could "do the math").
                          >
                          > Mr. Redman:
                          > I certainly did NOT write this.
                          >
                          > All my best,
                          > Addison Hart,
                          > jaaah@...
                          >
                          > Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                        • D. Andrew Burden, Ph.D.
                          I wrote it. Andy
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                            I wrote it.
                            Andy

                            jaaah@... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > > Addison,
                            > >
                            > > At 10:58 9/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                            > > >who could "do the math").
                            >
                            > Mr. Redman:
                            > I certainly did NOT write this.
                            >
                            > All my best,
                            > Addison Hart,
                            > jaaah@...
                            >
                            > Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                          • David Mercado
                            ... Sharpshooter Green, I think a little sympathetic understanding is due here. I know you like to put yourself in the other person s place. General Grant was
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                              --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, Bob Redman <redmanb@m...> wrote:

                              > At Shiloh he negelected elementary precautions against an attack,
                              > was absent at first, and later blamed Prentiss for the losses and
                              > played down Buell's part in the rescue. He then rationalized about
                              > it 20 years later.
                              > He was dying, and he still couldn't tell the truth.
                              >
                              Sharpshooter Green, I think a little sympathetic understanding is due
                              here. I know you like to put yourself in the other person's place.
                              General Grant was dying and was in terrible pain and he was broke due
                              to bad business deals. At the end, all he wanted was to fall back to
                              the time of his greatest glory. Perhaps he was trying to make a
                              Nixon-like recovery in the people's mind from a failed presidency
                              (opinion alert). But despite all the pain, he managed to write
                              eloquently (there was no quit in this man). The only thing he did
                              wrong was not to have 'primary sources of documentation' in front of
                              him to keep him on the straight and narrow and so his writing did
                              take on some 'spin'. Mr. Woodbury would have chided him on this just
                              as he has you. Best regards, Dave
                            • David Mercado
                              ... Sharpshooter Green, I think a little sympathetic understanding is due here. I know you like to put yourself in the other person s place. General Grant was
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                                --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, Bob Redman <redmanb@m...> wrote:

                                > At Shiloh he negelected elementary precautions against an attack,
                                > was absent at first, and later blamed Prentiss for the losses and
                                > played down Buell's part in the rescue. He then rationalized about
                                > it 20 years later.
                                > He was dying, and he still couldn't tell the truth.
                                >
                                Sharpshooter Green, I think a little sympathetic understanding is due
                                here. I know you like to put yourself in the other person's place.
                                General Grant was dying and was in terrible pain and he was broke due
                                to bad business deals. At the end, all he wanted was to fall back to
                                the time of his greatest glory. Perhaps he was trying to make a
                                Nixon-like recovery in the people's mind from a failed presidency
                                (opinion alert). But despite all the pain, he managed to write
                                eloquently (there was no quit in this man). The only thing he did
                                wrong was not to have 'primary sources of documentation' in front of
                                him to keep him on the straight and narrow and so his writing did
                                take on some 'spin'. Mr. Woodbury would have chided him on this just
                                as he has you. Best regards, Dave
                              • jaaah@tbcnet.com
                                ... Mr. Redman: I certainly did NOT write this. All my best, Addison Hart, jaaah@tbcnet.com Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                                  > Addison,
                                  >
                                  > At 10:58 9/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                                  > >who could "do the math").

                                  Mr. Redman:
                                  I certainly did NOT write this.

                                  All my best,
                                  Addison Hart,
                                  jaaah@...



                                  Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                                • jaaah@tbcnet.com
                                  ... Mr. Redman: I certainly did NOT write this. All my best, Addison Hart, jaaah@tbcnet.com Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Sep 1, 2000
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                                    > Addison,
                                    >
                                    > At 10:58 9/1/00 -0500, you wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >And this is precisely the sort of general Lincoln was looking for (one
                                    > >who could "do the math").

                                    Mr. Redman:
                                    I certainly did NOT write this.

                                    All my best,
                                    Addison Hart,
                                    jaaah@...



                                    Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
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