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Re: [civilwarwest] Politics of war ( maybe a little off topic)

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  • grabrulee@aol.com
    Ralph, Everything you say is absolutely correct. In the CSA the individual States did not pull together to give that National Feeling without which a nation
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 4, 2000
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      Ralph,
      Everything you say is absolutely correct. In the CSA the individual
      States did not pull together to give that "National Feeling" without which a
      nation cannot be a nation. The CSA was, in fact, eleven separate States, each
      with its own agenda, leaving Jeff Davis (the only person as far as I can see
      who truely believed in the concept of the Confederacy) in the same position
      as a conductor with an orchestra of eleven different instruments all playing
      different tunes at the same time- and you think Clinton has problems???
      I was born in London only four years after WWII ended and already, while
      I was growing up, my parents and their friends were bemoaning the fact that
      that "special" feel was being lost that had got Londoners through the dark
      days of the blitz, the "doodlebugs" , the V2 rockets, etc. All of that
      generation agree that without that feeling Hilter would have acheived his
      goals.
      If the CSA as a "nation" could not pull together at a time of War, how
      could they ever have survived Peace? My contention is that they were their
      own Doom, even without a war. What would have arisen, however, in that case
      would NOT have been the America we know today and for that you have the
      Western Theatre to thank for bringing about an end to the war when it did.
      If anyone thinks that Mankind ever learns anything, read the history of
      battles such as the two Bull Runs, Gettysburg, etc., of the Eastern Front;
      then read the accounts of the battles fought in France during the Great War -
      recognise any difference? I can't. It was not until some thinking generals
      got to grips with things that WWI ever ended; exactly as happened 50 years
      previously on the Western Front in the WBTS.
      OK, I'm climbing off my soapbox now.
      Sincerely,
      Graham Lee.
    • Wenn40@aol.com
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 4, 2000
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      • Wenn40@aol.com
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 4, 2000
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        • Daniel Giallombardo
          ... individual ... without which a ... States, each ... I can see ... position ... all playing ... problems??? ... already, while ... fact that ... the dark
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 5, 2000
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            --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, grabrulee@a... wrote:
            > Ralph,
            > Everything you say is absolutely correct. In the CSA the
            individual
            > States did not pull together to give that "National Feeling"
            without
            which a
            > nation cannot be a nation. The CSA was, in fact, eleven separate
            States, each
            > with its own agenda, leaving Jeff Davis (the only person as far as
            I
            can see
            > who truely believed in the concept of the Confederacy) in the same
            position
            > as a conductor with an orchestra of eleven different instruments
            all
            playing
            > different tunes at the same time- and you think Clinton has
            problems???
            > I was born in London only four years after WWII ended and
            already, while
            > I was growing up, my parents and their friends were bemoaning the
            fact that
            > that "special" feel was being lost that had got Londoners through
            the dark
            > days of the blitz, the "doodlebugs" , the V2 rockets, etc. All of
            that
            > generation agree that without that feeling Hilter would have
            acheived his
            > goals.
            > If the CSA as a "nation" could not pull together at a time of
            War, how
            > could they ever have survived Peace? My contention is that they
            were
            their
            > own Doom, even without a war. What would have arisen, however, in
            that case
            > would NOT have been the America we know today and for that you have
            the
            > Western Theatre to thank for bringing about an end to the war when
            it did.
            > If anyone thinks that Mankind ever learns anything, read the
            history of
            > battles such as the two Bull Runs, Gettysburg, etc., of the Eastern
            Front;
            > then read the accounts of the battles fought in France during the
            Great War -
            > recognise any difference? I can't. It was not until some thinking
            generals
            > got to grips with things that WWI ever ended; exactly as happened
            50
            years
            > previously on the Western Front in the WBTS.
            > OK, I'm climbing off my soapbox now.
            > Sincerely,
            > Graham Lee.


            Graham,

            I would congratulate you on what I think a most astute
            observation........Davis seemed to be the only one who truly
            understood what was needed to forge the confederated states into a
            nation.Frequently, his requests for men and material from the states
            was met with self-intrest,or simply ignored.
            As for your observations on WWI-again right on the
            money.Adherence to outdated tactics,use of men more as cannon fodder
            than a valuable resource(and I cite the fields of Flanders as a
            perfect example for that),and the refusal to consider flexibility in
            command decisions spelled doom for many many soldiers on both
            sides....
          • Daniel Giallombardo
            ... individual ... without which a ... States, each ... I can see ... position ... all playing ... problems??? ... already, while ... fact that ... the dark
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 5, 2000
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              --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, grabrulee@a... wrote:
              > Ralph,
              > Everything you say is absolutely correct. In the CSA the
              individual
              > States did not pull together to give that "National Feeling"
              without
              which a
              > nation cannot be a nation. The CSA was, in fact, eleven separate
              States, each
              > with its own agenda, leaving Jeff Davis (the only person as far as
              I
              can see
              > who truely believed in the concept of the Confederacy) in the same
              position
              > as a conductor with an orchestra of eleven different instruments
              all
              playing
              > different tunes at the same time- and you think Clinton has
              problems???
              > I was born in London only four years after WWII ended and
              already, while
              > I was growing up, my parents and their friends were bemoaning the
              fact that
              > that "special" feel was being lost that had got Londoners through
              the dark
              > days of the blitz, the "doodlebugs" , the V2 rockets, etc. All of
              that
              > generation agree that without that feeling Hilter would have
              acheived his
              > goals.
              > If the CSA as a "nation" could not pull together at a time of
              War, how
              > could they ever have survived Peace? My contention is that they
              were
              their
              > own Doom, even without a war. What would have arisen, however, in
              that case
              > would NOT have been the America we know today and for that you have
              the
              > Western Theatre to thank for bringing about an end to the war when
              it did.
              > If anyone thinks that Mankind ever learns anything, read the
              history of
              > battles such as the two Bull Runs, Gettysburg, etc., of the Eastern
              Front;
              > then read the accounts of the battles fought in France during the
              Great War -
              > recognise any difference? I can't. It was not until some thinking
              generals
              > got to grips with things that WWI ever ended; exactly as happened
              50
              years
              > previously on the Western Front in the WBTS.
              > OK, I'm climbing off my soapbox now.
              > Sincerely,
              > Graham Lee.


              Graham,

              I would congratulate you on what I think a most astute
              observation........Davis seemed to be the only one who truly
              understood what was needed to forge the confederated states into a
              nation.Frequently, his requests for men and material from the states
              was met with self-intrest,or simply ignored.
              As for your observations on WWI-again right on the
              money.Adherence to outdated tactics,use of men more as cannon fodder
              than a valuable resource(and I cite the fields of Flanders as a
              perfect example for that),and the refusal to consider flexibility in
              command decisions spelled doom for many many soldiers on both
              sides....
            • Henry*"Mandala"*
              that ... would there have been a America to turn the tide of War in World War 1 and World War two? That is, a divided America is so many parts, would this have
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 6, 2000
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                that
                >even if the CSA succeeded in the civil war they would have fell apart just
                >because the country was founded on the division of beliefs rather uniting of
                >them.
                > O.K. very good point. I was wondering if the south had won and in turn fell apart,

                would there have been a America to turn the tide of War in World War 1 and World War two?

                That is, a divided America is so many parts, would this have changed World History?

                End---Henry
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              • Henry*"Mandala"*
                that ... would there have been a America to turn the tide of War in World War 1 and World War two? That is, a divided America is so many parts, would this have
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 6, 2000
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                  that
                  >even if the CSA succeeded in the civil war they would have fell apart just
                  >because the country was founded on the division of beliefs rather uniting of
                  >them.
                  > O.K. very good point. I was wondering if the south had won and in turn fell apart,

                  would there have been a America to turn the tide of War in World War 1 and World War two?

                  That is, a divided America is so many parts, would this have changed World History?

                  End---Henry
                  ___________________________________________________
                  GO Network Mail
                  Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com
                • Graham Lee
                  ... apart just ... uniting of ... in turn fell apart, ... War 1 and World War two? ... changed World History? ... Henry, The point you make is very pertinent.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 6, 2000
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                    --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, "Henry*\"Mandala\"*"
                    <HenryMandala@g...> wrote:
                    >
                    > that
                    > >even if the CSA succeeded in the civil war they would have fell
                    apart just
                    > >because the country was founded on the division of beliefs rather
                    uniting of
                    > >them.
                    > > O.K. very good point. I was wondering if the south had won and
                    in turn fell apart,
                    >
                    > would there have been a America to turn the tide of War in World
                    War
                    1 and World War two?
                    >
                    > That is, a divided America is so many parts, would this have
                    changed
                    World History?
                    >
                    > End---Henry
                    > ___________________________________________________
                    > GO Network Mail
                    > Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com

                    Henry,
                    The point you make is very pertinent. However, all we can say
                    is
                    that the WBTS was fought, was won by the Union and, thus, brought
                    about the America we now know. My personal opinion, based on my
                    reading on the subject, is that - war or no war - the Confederacy
                    would not have survived. In fact, I think it possible that the war
                    may
                    have prolonged the life of what was, at its strongest, a very tenuous
                    coalition.
                    Having accepted this, we then have to look for the most likely
                    outcome among a myriad of possibilties and, as such, we will be
                    diverting from the main topic of this group. I originally used the
                    Eastern Theatre/Western Front analogy to illustrate a specific point
                    about the mindset of the general officers involved. I don't think
                    friend Shotgun will thank us for extending the scope of the Group
                    into
                    the role of the USA in Twentieth Century politics. My profound
                    apologies, Dick, for leading the members off the point but even that
                    serves to demonstrate just how pivotal was the WBTS in the overall
                    scheme of World Military History.
                    Sincerely
                    Graham Lee
                  • Graham Lee
                    ... apart just ... uniting of ... in turn fell apart, ... War 1 and World War two? ... changed World History? ... Henry, The point you make is very pertinent.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 6, 2000
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                      --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, "Henry*\"Mandala\"*"
                      <HenryMandala@g...> wrote:
                      >
                      > that
                      > >even if the CSA succeeded in the civil war they would have fell
                      apart just
                      > >because the country was founded on the division of beliefs rather
                      uniting of
                      > >them.
                      > > O.K. very good point. I was wondering if the south had won and
                      in turn fell apart,
                      >
                      > would there have been a America to turn the tide of War in World
                      War
                      1 and World War two?
                      >
                      > That is, a divided America is so many parts, would this have
                      changed
                      World History?
                      >
                      > End---Henry
                      > ___________________________________________________
                      > GO Network Mail
                      > Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com

                      Henry,
                      The point you make is very pertinent. However, all we can say
                      is
                      that the WBTS was fought, was won by the Union and, thus, brought
                      about the America we now know. My personal opinion, based on my
                      reading on the subject, is that - war or no war - the Confederacy
                      would not have survived. In fact, I think it possible that the war
                      may
                      have prolonged the life of what was, at its strongest, a very tenuous
                      coalition.
                      Having accepted this, we then have to look for the most likely
                      outcome among a myriad of possibilties and, as such, we will be
                      diverting from the main topic of this group. I originally used the
                      Eastern Theatre/Western Front analogy to illustrate a specific point
                      about the mindset of the general officers involved. I don't think
                      friend Shotgun will thank us for extending the scope of the Group
                      into
                      the role of the USA in Twentieth Century politics. My profound
                      apologies, Dick, for leading the members off the point but even that
                      serves to demonstrate just how pivotal was the WBTS in the overall
                      scheme of World Military History.
                      Sincerely
                      Graham Lee
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