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Re: Davis vs Lincoln

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  • melchizedek22
    Howell Cobb,payed a huge price when Sherman found out they were camped at Cobb s plantation during the March to the Sea ! The Baron
    Message 1 of 6 , May 12, 2002
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      Howell Cobb,payed a huge price when Sherman found out they were camped at Cobb's plantation during the"March to the Sea"! The Baron

      -- In civilwarwest@y..., "aot1952" <wakefield1952@m...> wrote:
      > Ms. Connie although you continue to ignore my list of rather
      > innovative and imaginative actions by Davis contained in prior posts
      > I will attempt to respond to this posting.
      > I confess I fail to see the accuracy, substance or materiality of the
      > cited alleged failures of Davis in regards to his dealings with the
      > alleged three 'geniuses' from Georgia. In short the FACTS simply do
      > not support the often-repeated litany of Davis' alleged failures. At
      > least to me, that popular historian William Davis repeats these same
      > old `alleged' failures does not make them anymore true than they were
      > back in the 1870s when they first uttered by this trio of self
      > proclaimed and underutilized geniuses.
      > First you allege that Jeff Davis ignored Robert Toombs. Well the
      > facts are that this is simply not true. Who was it that was Davis'
      > first appointed Secretary of State? I think you will find that to be
      > Robert Toombs! Davis made this appointment even though Toombs had
      > unlike Davis actively lobbied for elevation to the office of
      > President. Some considered him an early favorite for the position of
      > President of the CS (Sounds an awful like Lincoln's constantly touted
      > brilliant move of making Seward his Secretary of State). It was
      > Toombs that resigned his position as Secretary of State, to seek
      > greater glory in the field of active military service and not Jeff
      > Davis that dumped him. Toombs the great genius was the father of the
      > CS's bemoaned diplomatic efforts.
      > Next it is alleged that Davis refused to work with Stephens. Well
      > Stephens was the first and only Vice President of the CS. An office
      > which I believed Gardner once described as not worth a pail of spit.
      > It was NOT Jeff Davis that placed this alleged genius in this
      > position but rather the voters in Montgomery. Davis was not even in
      > town when the selection was made and so how does he get saddled with
      > this decision? After a year Stephens broke with Davis over Stephens
      > perceived violations of fundamental Constitutional liberties which he
      > saw Davis' radical Universal Conscription and suspension of Habeas
      > Corpus policies represented. While it is true that Davis' Universal
      > Conscription was the MOST radical such policy ever undertaken by a
      > country to that point in time, it was just the sort of looking
      > outside the established box of precedent that you constantly scream
      > Davis was guilty of failing to practice. --- Then Stephens went into
      > a `self- imposed" exile. Davis neither cast him out nor refused to
      > speak or attempted to work with him. Stephens abandoned his office
      > and his responsibilities! For this Davis is to be blamed? What was
      > Davis supposed to do ARREST HIM? Then even though Stephens simply
      > packed up and left Richmond for the next couple of years -- once
      > again it was Davis who sought him out and got him to act as a
      > representative at the Hampton Roads Peace Conference. His courting
      > and enlistment of Stephens to participate in the Hampton Roads Peace
      > Conference hardly the act of an unforgiving, inflexible `snob', which
      > you allege Davis to have been. No, Davis went way beyond the call in
      > trying to get some mileage out of Stephens and this alleged failure
      > to work with Stephens by Davis is simply neither supported by the
      > facts nor reason. Who exactly was supposed to be the inflexible,
      > immature snob Davis or Stephens? One last thing, I am quite sure that
      > Stephens immediate post-war assurances and loud proclamations that he
      > never really had much to do with the policies or running of the
      > rebellion was in no way, motivated by Stephens political ambitions
      > since he attempted to be seated as the Senator from Georgia in 1866.
      > Of course, "little Alex' the consummate 'slithering' politico did
      > return to the US House in 1872-- after writing his two volume "A
      > Constitutional View of the Late War Between the States ", in which he
      > explained that Davis had violated the fundamental Constitutional
      > freedoms of the South with his `tax-in-kind `policy, Universal
      > Conscription, and suspension of Habeas Corpus actions in a misguided
      > effort to win Southern Independence though military means, instead of
      > though the purity of Constitutional principles and universally
      > recognized LEGAL purity of secession! Yeah this guy was a REAL genius
      > if he is to be believed he never thought Davis should have ever
      > resorted to military action to attempt to win independence.
      > Apparently "little Alex" pictured himself as a "peaceful
      > revolutionary." LOL
      > Now for Mr. Howell Cobb. Well as we all know Mr. Cobb showed up at
      > Montgomery expecting to be elected President of the newly formed
      > Confederacy. However, Cobb got roaring drunk the night before the
      > election, thus confirming the long whispered rumors of his alcoholism
      > and the delegates turned to Davis.
      > Cobb recovered sufficiently to become the first Speaker of the House
      > of the Confederacy. While in that position he helped pass the Davis
      > legislative program and also organized the 16th Georgia who he chose
      > to lead in the field beginning in 1862. It was Cobb who resigned his
      > office as Speaker of the House to pursue Military glory. Exactly how
      > was it that Davis refused to work with this man? EXAMPLES__GIVE US
      > EXAMPLES -not hollow slanders. Consistent with Cobbs wishes it was
      > Davis that nominated him for the position of Major General and
      > command of the District of Georgia and Florida in 1863. Once again
      > when Lincoln `used' politico' Generals to develop political capitol--
      > he is declared a genius --when Davis did it, we are told Davis was an
      > uncooperative, inflexible idiot. And that simply does not seem to be
      > too consistent. I should also mention that I am aware of no
      > contemporary documentary evidence indicating that Cobb ever objected
      > to any policy or program advocated by Davis.
      > Next you allege "While there is no way that he or his advisors could
      > have known exactly how
      > handling their cotton reserves on the world market would turn out,
      > they should have weighed all the possibilities." Please provide the
      > evidence upon which you rely in saying that they did not `weigh all
      > the possibilities". I believe that the evidence is that some two
      > weeks of intensive private discussions preceded the Cotton Policy
      > decision. Discussions in which Davis states in his post-war writing
      > scores of people both in and out of the government were consulted.
      > History tells us that the policy was a failure and as with all
      > failures in politics everyone who can put as much distance between
      > themselves and that failure as possible does so. However unlike
      > others Davis could not and did not attempt to do so. Exactly what the
      > Confederacy's realistic alternatives where I have yet to have anyone
      > but Carl even suggest. Surely Davis is not to be blamed for the
      > preceding bumper cotton crops that seriously damaged its
      > effectiveness. Was Davis to have expected that it would be undermined
      > by subsequent illegal sales? Was Davis to anticipate the speed with
      > which alternative sources would develop? Yes it was a mistake, was it
      > anymore of a mistake than the Lincoln Administrations' decision early
      > in the war effort not to arm the Federal Forces with repeating rifles?
      > However, to the extent that your post used as "evidence' that Davis
      > refused through personal inflexibility to attempt to work with the
      > Three Geniuses from Georgia I would respectfully suggest that the
      > facts simply do not support such an allegation. I believe I have
      > pointed to facts, which strongly suggest the slander is simply wrong.
      > I certainly would be anxious to hear of ACTUAL incidents where the
      > slander was true but simply saying it is so does not prove it to me.
      > Your citation of William Davis is certainly interesting but does not
      > persuade me because my recollection is that he like you fails to cite
      > specific incidents or examples in making his allegations. The Sole
      > contemporary evidence I have ever seen is Stephens' and quite frankly
      > in my humble opinion Stephens was flat out wrong on both issues--
      > Universal Conscription and Habeas Corpus. In fact, Stephens is
      > perhaps the best example I can think of to illustrate why I seriously
      > question the legitimacy of all this post-war denigration of Davis'
      > leadership. Here was a guy disparate to regain political position and
      > to do so had to explain exactly how it was he had been a prominent
      > member of the rebellion but he had really nothing to do with the it!
      > Seems like a really good cover story to say to the Federal
      > authorities and newly enfranchised voters --"Oh yeah, I was the Vice
      > President but heck Davis never listened to me and I never supported
      > any of the policies." Then to turn to the old line CS power structure
      > and say--- "yeah the confederacy was a great idea and if Jeff Davis
      > had just listened to me --we would have won!" This political ability
      > to talk out of both sides of one's mouth after the military defeat
      > was certainly the case with Joe Brown. It worked very successfully
      > for many of these guys.
      > As always I will be the first to admit I am wrong when someone shows
      > me some tangible evidence.
      > Wakefield
      > --- In civilwarwest@y..., Aurelie1999@a... wrote:
      > > In the book Toombs and Stephens, The Union that made the
      > Confederacy William
      > > C. Davis demonstrates that from the very beginning Davis had tunnel
      > vision
      > > when it came to how he selected and positioned his advisors. His
      > snobbery
      > > limited his choices. Rather than tapping into the proven talent of
      > men such
      > > as Stephens and Toombs or enlisting the power brokers such as the
      > Cobbs,
      > > Vance and Brown, he turned to men who kissed his ass, sang his
      > tune,
      > > conformed to his expectations. He did not look for talent, but the
      > > perception of talent. This was a complete reversal of Lincoln's
      > MO. Lincoln
      > > kissed ass, he didn't need his ego massaged.
      > >
      > > While there is no way that he or his advisors could have known
      > exactly how
      > > handling their cotton reserves on the world market would turn out,
      > they
      > > should have weighed all the possibilities. But they didn't. All
      > were
      > > (according to Davis) naive in global matters and knew little about
      > European
      > > affairs or economic realities. Davis hoarded their great asset,
      > but instead
      > > of the value increasing it decreased.
      > >
      > > Cotton diplomacy required two things: immediate and desperate
      > demand in
      > > Europe and no illegal sales from the South. Neither thing
      > happened. There
      > > was a two year stockpile in Europe and southerners were quickly
      > brokering
      > > their cotton on the world market. For many years, there were those
      > in
      > > England who urged opening new cotton sources and of course, they
      > immediately
      > > did just that in both Egypt and India.
      > >
      > > The point is that Davis put all his eggs in one basket, on one
      > idea. He left
      > > no negotiating or thinking room and dismissed Toombs and others
      > because they
      > > did not fit his preconceived notions for able advisors. The result:
      > King
      > > Cotton toppled from its throne and the CSA economy went into the
      > toidy and
      > > never recovered.
      > >
      > > Other than Gorgas, I wish you could name an appointment, an
      > advisor, a moment
      > > when Davis exhibited vision. Lincoln by contrast talked to
      > everyone, the
      > > press, congressmen, soldiers in the hospital, troublemakers,
      > generals,
      > > telegraphers. He remained flexible and movable from any position.
      > >
      > > Connie Booneóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóòòòóóóóóóóôòòóñóôòòóñóôòõùþöûþòùüóøû¹‚7ʕjÔ§‚Ô²"ص›×´šÚµ›Ü·Ù¶œÙ·šÙ·šÙ·šÜ·›Ü·›Ü·›Û¶šÛ¶šÜ·›Ü·›Û¶šÙ·šÙ·šÚ¸›Ú·Ú·Ú·Ù¶œÙ¶œÛµÜ¶žÜ·Ü·Ü·ÛµÛµÛ¶œÛ¶œÛ¶œÛ¶œÛ¶œÛ¶šÛ¶šÛ¶šÛ¶šÜµ™Ø¹˜Ø¸›Ù·™Ý²ß¶ŸØ¶˜Ú®Î˜i¹3Ë¢qêììëñìò÷øñöù÷øüóóóòòòóóóóóóòòòòòòóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóòòòòòòòóñóôòóôòòóññòðïîðïô÷µ†<Σxõèæÿÿüùý÷ÿúüúüüûûûýýýýýýüýûýþüýþüýþüýþüýþüþþþýýýýýýýýýýþüüýûýþüýþüýþüýþüýþüýþüýþüüýûüüüüüüýýýüüüýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýýüûýýýýýûúûýþüüü÷þûýþüüû÷ûÿûîææÑ x»„3åëêìììíðîôñóòòòòòòòòòòòòóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóôòóôòôõóóôòòóñòòòñññððððòò°ƒJÏ¢€ùþýûúöêâÕظ›Ð™rɖkʗl̗lʕjÉ"i˖k˖kÉ"i˕l˕l̖m̕n̕n̖m̖m˕l̗l˖kʕj˖k˖k̗l̗l˖k̗l̗l̗l̗l͘m͘m̗l̗l͘m̗l̗l˖k˖k˖k˕l˕lÇ"jÇ"l˚lȗiʗlȖlϞr߶ŸóåæùúöÿÿÿÛ³–º„=Ýâáäèéïóôðððòòòóóóòòòòòòòòòóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóóó http://rd.yahoo.com/M=224039.1975710.3458970.1912433/D=cb/P=m24vvuk011000000/S=1705000001:HEAD/A=1028592/R=0/*http://groups.yahoo.com_topYahoo!http://rd.yahoo.com/M=224039.1975710.3458970.1912433/D=cb/P=m24vvuk011000000/S=1705000001:HEAD/A=1028592/R=1/*http://groups.yahoo.com_topGroups Home - http://rd.yahoo.com/M=224039.1975710.3458970.1912433/D=cb/P=m24vvuk011000000/S=1705000001:HEAD/A=1028592/R=2/*http://www.yahoo.com_
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