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  • Steve Charles
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    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 27, 2000
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      • cob2mo
        Not enough western theater for me. Sorry! ... From: J Clink To: Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 11:02 PM
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 2, 2000
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          Not enough western theater for me. Sorry!
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "J Clink" <ncanfield@...>
          To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 11:02 PM
          Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Hard hand of war.


          > Thanks for the info! I haven't really done a lot of reading about military
          > tactics and practices. I do know that Napolean drafted people, but more
          out of
          > necessity -- which I guess is always the case. The book I read marked the
          > decline of Napolean's success with the killing off of his veterans through
          > near-continual war. (Wish I had the book at hand...) Because his army did
          use
          > quite a few innovative tactics, once the well-trained were gone, there
          wasn't
          > time to train their replacements as thoroughly.
          >
          > My main point, though, was more about the Civil War having been taken very
          > personally by a good many of its soldiers. ('Course, apparently the
          conscripts
          > wouldn't be the most committed!) So-called True Believers in any war seem
          to
          > intensify the bloodshed. It seems in a democracy, if the citizen-soldiers
          > actually VOTED for or against the war, they'd feel more personally
          involved.
          >
          > I know there's a lot I don't know, though!
          >
          > Jeanette
          >
          > nils.feller@... wrote:
          >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: J Clink <ncanfield@...>
          > > To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
          > > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 8:39 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Hard hand of war.
          > >
          > > > About the democracies -- I read a book on military tactics (just one
          > > tho -- not an
          > > > expert), and in Europe, which served as a model for McClellan and the
          U.S.
          > > military
          > > > in general, many of the wars were fought by hired professionals rather
          > > than the
          > > > general population. There were instances of conscription, but nothing
          like
          > > what was
          > > > instituted by both the U.S. and the Confederacy during the CW. In
          Europe,
          > > most
          > > > people didn't feel they had a personal stake in the war.
          > >
          > > Jeanette,
          > > a very interesting post, but one correction seems to be necessary: What
          you
          > > write about conscription in Europe is true for the 18th century, but not
          the
          > > 19th.
          > > The Napoleonic Wars served as proof to military reformers like
          Scharnhorst
          > > and Gneisenau that future wars were to be fought by armies of
          conscripts,
          > > the French Army of the Revolution having served as an example.
          > > In Prussia, compulsory military service for all men between 20 and 40
          had
          > > been introduced in 1814. It soon became the rule in all German states,
          > > indeed in all of Europe, and by the middle of the 19th century,
          volunteer
          > > armies were the exception rather than the rule. Actually, by the end of
          the
          > > century, only Britain and the US among the more important powers had no
          > > system of conscription (which I personally would see rather positive). I
          > > hope my post doesn't seem to be too narrow-minded!
          > > Nils
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the net.
          > > Try @Backup FREE and receive 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:
          > > http://click.egroups.com/1/5666/4/_/14182/_/962346918/
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue.
          > http://click.egroups.com/1/6137/4/_/14182/_/962597174/
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
        • cob2mo
          Not enough western theater for me. Sorry! ... From: J Clink To: Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 11:02 PM
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 2, 2000
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            Not enough western theater for me. Sorry!
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "J Clink" <ncanfield@...>
            To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 11:02 PM
            Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Hard hand of war.


            > Thanks for the info! I haven't really done a lot of reading about military
            > tactics and practices. I do know that Napolean drafted people, but more
            out of
            > necessity -- which I guess is always the case. The book I read marked the
            > decline of Napolean's success with the killing off of his veterans through
            > near-continual war. (Wish I had the book at hand...) Because his army did
            use
            > quite a few innovative tactics, once the well-trained were gone, there
            wasn't
            > time to train their replacements as thoroughly.
            >
            > My main point, though, was more about the Civil War having been taken very
            > personally by a good many of its soldiers. ('Course, apparently the
            conscripts
            > wouldn't be the most committed!) So-called True Believers in any war seem
            to
            > intensify the bloodshed. It seems in a democracy, if the citizen-soldiers
            > actually VOTED for or against the war, they'd feel more personally
            involved.
            >
            > I know there's a lot I don't know, though!
            >
            > Jeanette
            >
            > nils.feller@... wrote:
            >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: J Clink <ncanfield@...>
            > > To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
            > > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 8:39 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Hard hand of war.
            > >
            > > > About the democracies -- I read a book on military tactics (just one
            > > tho -- not an
            > > > expert), and in Europe, which served as a model for McClellan and the
            U.S.
            > > military
            > > > in general, many of the wars were fought by hired professionals rather
            > > than the
            > > > general population. There were instances of conscription, but nothing
            like
            > > what was
            > > > instituted by both the U.S. and the Confederacy during the CW. In
            Europe,
            > > most
            > > > people didn't feel they had a personal stake in the war.
            > >
            > > Jeanette,
            > > a very interesting post, but one correction seems to be necessary: What
            you
            > > write about conscription in Europe is true for the 18th century, but not
            the
            > > 19th.
            > > The Napoleonic Wars served as proof to military reformers like
            Scharnhorst
            > > and Gneisenau that future wars were to be fought by armies of
            conscripts,
            > > the French Army of the Revolution having served as an example.
            > > In Prussia, compulsory military service for all men between 20 and 40
            had
            > > been introduced in 1814. It soon became the rule in all German states,
            > > indeed in all of Europe, and by the middle of the 19th century,
            volunteer
            > > armies were the exception rather than the rule. Actually, by the end of
            the
            > > century, only Britain and the US among the more important powers had no
            > > system of conscription (which I personally would see rather positive). I
            > > hope my post doesn't seem to be too narrow-minded!
            > > Nils
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the net.
            > > Try @Backup FREE and receive 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:
            > > http://click.egroups.com/1/5666/4/_/14182/_/962346918/
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue.
            > http://click.egroups.com/1/6137/4/_/14182/_/962597174/
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
          • John P. Rivers
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 29, 2000
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              oneplez@... wrote:

              > --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, David Woodbury <woodbury@l...> wrote:
              > > Stephen wrote:
              > > > > One thought, I agree that Thomas has not been given the credit
              > he
              > > >earned for
              > > > > many victories but it really is not necessary to establish his
              > > >achievements
              > > > > at the expense of others.
              > >
              > > To which Don replied:
              > >
              > > >You have fallen for the spin put out by those who seek to
              > perpetuate
              > > >their own interpretation or analysis. I see nothing wrong with
              > > >correcting false assertions.
              > >
              > > Don,
              > >
              > > If it were merely correcting false assertions, I doubt anyone
              > would
              > > take issue with Bob's analysis. But it is problematic to attempt to
              > > correct false assertions by introducing other ones (e.g., Grant's
              > > presidential aspirations), or through unsubstantiated character
              > > assassination (e.g., Grant is a "liar" because he said it took
              > Hooker
              > > 4 hours to get across Chattanooga Creek).
              >
              > Didn't he provide citations that implied Grants ambitions? Seems to
              > me he is doing a good job of applying analysis to these topics.
              > Something that very few "historians" have done.
              >
              > I can't speak for Bob, but isn't he trying to establish that Grant
              > lied? I can't verify Hookers time schedule but I can verify and did
              > in another post that Grant lied about "the battle being fought
              > exactly as (he) planned it".
              >
              > Maybe I'm confused about the swirl of activity about this topic.
              >
              > Don Plezia
              > >
              > > David
              >
            • John P. Rivers
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 29, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                oneplez@... wrote:

                > --- In civilwarwest@egroups.com, David Woodbury <woodbury@l...> wrote:
                > > Stephen wrote:
                > > > > One thought, I agree that Thomas has not been given the credit
                > he
                > > >earned for
                > > > > many victories but it really is not necessary to establish his
                > > >achievements
                > > > > at the expense of others.
                > >
                > > To which Don replied:
                > >
                > > >You have fallen for the spin put out by those who seek to
                > perpetuate
                > > >their own interpretation or analysis. I see nothing wrong with
                > > >correcting false assertions.
                > >
                > > Don,
                > >
                > > If it were merely correcting false assertions, I doubt anyone
                > would
                > > take issue with Bob's analysis. But it is problematic to attempt to
                > > correct false assertions by introducing other ones (e.g., Grant's
                > > presidential aspirations), or through unsubstantiated character
                > > assassination (e.g., Grant is a "liar" because he said it took
                > Hooker
                > > 4 hours to get across Chattanooga Creek).
                >
                > Didn't he provide citations that implied Grants ambitions? Seems to
                > me he is doing a good job of applying analysis to these topics.
                > Something that very few "historians" have done.
                >
                > I can't speak for Bob, but isn't he trying to establish that Grant
                > lied? I can't verify Hookers time schedule but I can verify and did
                > in another post that Grant lied about "the battle being fought
                > exactly as (he) planned it".
                >
                > Maybe I'm confused about the swirl of activity about this topic.
                >
                > Don Plezia
                > >
                > > David
                >
              • Aaron Strong
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                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 30, 2000
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                • Aaron Strong
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                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 30, 2000
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                  • mary chura
                    ... From: Leslie E. England To: Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 2:35 AM Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Back
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 14, 2000
                    • 0 Attachment
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Leslie E. England <engl6914@...>
                      To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 2:35 AM
                      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Back to basics


                      >
                      > Stephen,
                      >
                      > I belong to an organization you may already know of, The Civil War
                      Preservation
                      > Trust. The group buys property on the battle sites as it becomes
                      threatened,
                      > and before if they've money ahead. Last year we bought 40 acres that came
                      up
                      > on the Raymond battle site near Jackson when it looked like a grocery was
                      going
                      > to open there. The current campaign is to save the Cross Keys battle site
                      in
                      > Virginia from a housing development. They're constantly fighting to save
                      the
                      > Wilderness battlefield. You might look into joining.
                      > The Mississippi Department of Archives and History helped in the
                      purchase
                      > of about 600 acres at the Champion Hill battle site, the money given by, I
                      > think, the Mellon Foundation. A lot of the property there is owned by the
                      > Champion family who won't sell, though they use it for the same purpose
                      they
                      > did in 1863, semi-agricultural. A friend in Archives and History told me
                      the
                      > department then leases the property to hunting clubs who are prohibited
                      from
                      > developing it (of course, they don't want to). Also, the clubs are good
                      about
                      > keeping the trash cleared up, keeping the department from having to spend
                      the
                      > money they don't have to do that.
                      >
                      > Lee England
                      > Natchez, Miss.
                      >
                      > Stephen D Wakefield wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Lee you are truly lucky to be so close to that area. It remains one of
                      the
                      > > very very few and dwindling areas were the terrain and development of
                      the
                      > > area has not substantially changed or altered the lay of the land over
                      the
                      > > last 150 years. Anyone who has the chance needs to get to this area of
                      the
                      > > Vicksburg Campaign. You really can see what it was like.It is one of my
                      > > absolute favorite tour spots... motorcycle or bikes are perfect. Other
                      > > similar spots that I have been to are the area between Corinith Ms and
                      > > Shiloh and some of area around Ft. Donelson.
                      > > However I warn you to not put off visiting these places sadly they will
                      not
                      > > remain . Tenty years ago the area between Columbia Tenn and Franklin was
                      > > even more spectacular but much of that area has fallen to urban sprawl
                      and
                      > > industrial develpoment.
                      > > Regards-
                      > > Wakefield
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: Leslie E. England <engl6914@...>
                      > > To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 3:41 AM
                      > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Back to basics
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > I was just reading George Butler's post and thought I'd chirp in for
                      the
                      > > > first time. I've been combing civil war battlefields for a long time
                      but
                      > > > have lately gotten into the following: Get the map volume set from
                      the
                      > > > Official Records. It was reprinted several years ago and is still
                      > > > available. These are all the military engineer maps of the areas of
                      > > > campaign. Put the present day USGS topographical next to it. It will
                      > > > become apparent to you where these old roads are today, along with
                      battle
                      > > > lines and bivouac areas, etc. In some cases they're black topped and
                      are
                      > > > used presently (very winding) or are gravel, or a depression next to
                      the
                      > > > new road, or a power line right of way, or a driveway, farm lane. It
                      will
                      > > > lead you to places the historical markers never will.
                      > > > I live near Port Gibson and Claiborne County, Mississippi where
                      > > General
                      > > > Grant's army landed and fought its way inland to Port Gibson, Raymond,
                      > > > Champion Hill, Big Black River and Vicksburg. The old roads are all
                      still
                      > > > there, or their remnants, and the battle fields are way back in the
                      woods,
                      > > > untouched, and occupied by hunting camps, the members of which don't
                      know
                      > > > what they're hunting on. You might try this sometime. A GPS receiver
                      > > > helps, though not a necessity. As you drive through and walk this
                      area
                      > > you
                      > > > begin to see the opportunities the Confederate Army had to post Grant
                      and
                      > > > annihilate him, especially when part of Grant's army was north of
                      Bayou
                      > > > Pierre and the other portion not yet crossed. It reminds you of the
                      North
                      > > > Anna where Lee set the trap to pull that off, and of Chancellorsville
                      > > where
                      > > > he did pull it off.
                      > > >
                      > > > Lee England
                      > > > Natchez, Miss.
                      > > >
                      > > > George Butler wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hey Gang!!!
                      > > > > Cant"t we just get back to basics here???
                      > > > > I am bored to tears about these long,rambling dissertations on legal
                      > > > > questions, beating the subject of Hood at Franklin like it was the
                      > > > > proverbial dead horse, and tho I know we have some Phd"s in the
                      > > > > group,can't we make it a little less obvious?
                      > > > > Its the campaigns in the West we're supposed to be addressing
                      > > > > Stop fighting WBTS 2 and lets deal with the information we have
                      > > > > available to us.
                      > > > > We are committing the sin of judging the men(@women) of the past by
                      > > > > the standards of to-day. Makes for very bad judgments.
                      > > > > Now thats off my chest, how about the subject of Kirby Smith and the
                      > > > > TRans-Mississippi? A very neglected area.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • mary chura
                      ... From: Leslie E. England To: Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 2:35 AM Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Back
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 14, 2000
                      • 0 Attachment
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Leslie E. England <engl6914@...>
                        To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 2:35 AM
                        Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Back to basics


                        >
                        > Stephen,
                        >
                        > I belong to an organization you may already know of, The Civil War
                        Preservation
                        > Trust. The group buys property on the battle sites as it becomes
                        threatened,
                        > and before if they've money ahead. Last year we bought 40 acres that came
                        up
                        > on the Raymond battle site near Jackson when it looked like a grocery was
                        going
                        > to open there. The current campaign is to save the Cross Keys battle site
                        in
                        > Virginia from a housing development. They're constantly fighting to save
                        the
                        > Wilderness battlefield. You might look into joining.
                        > The Mississippi Department of Archives and History helped in the
                        purchase
                        > of about 600 acres at the Champion Hill battle site, the money given by, I
                        > think, the Mellon Foundation. A lot of the property there is owned by the
                        > Champion family who won't sell, though they use it for the same purpose
                        they
                        > did in 1863, semi-agricultural. A friend in Archives and History told me
                        the
                        > department then leases the property to hunting clubs who are prohibited
                        from
                        > developing it (of course, they don't want to). Also, the clubs are good
                        about
                        > keeping the trash cleared up, keeping the department from having to spend
                        the
                        > money they don't have to do that.
                        >
                        > Lee England
                        > Natchez, Miss.
                        >
                        > Stephen D Wakefield wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Lee you are truly lucky to be so close to that area. It remains one of
                        the
                        > > very very few and dwindling areas were the terrain and development of
                        the
                        > > area has not substantially changed or altered the lay of the land over
                        the
                        > > last 150 years. Anyone who has the chance needs to get to this area of
                        the
                        > > Vicksburg Campaign. You really can see what it was like.It is one of my
                        > > absolute favorite tour spots... motorcycle or bikes are perfect. Other
                        > > similar spots that I have been to are the area between Corinith Ms and
                        > > Shiloh and some of area around Ft. Donelson.
                        > > However I warn you to not put off visiting these places sadly they will
                        not
                        > > remain . Tenty years ago the area between Columbia Tenn and Franklin was
                        > > even more spectacular but much of that area has fallen to urban sprawl
                        and
                        > > industrial develpoment.
                        > > Regards-
                        > > Wakefield
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Leslie E. England <engl6914@...>
                        > > To: <civilwarwest@egroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 3:41 AM
                        > > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Back to basics
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I was just reading George Butler's post and thought I'd chirp in for
                        the
                        > > > first time. I've been combing civil war battlefields for a long time
                        but
                        > > > have lately gotten into the following: Get the map volume set from
                        the
                        > > > Official Records. It was reprinted several years ago and is still
                        > > > available. These are all the military engineer maps of the areas of
                        > > > campaign. Put the present day USGS topographical next to it. It will
                        > > > become apparent to you where these old roads are today, along with
                        battle
                        > > > lines and bivouac areas, etc. In some cases they're black topped and
                        are
                        > > > used presently (very winding) or are gravel, or a depression next to
                        the
                        > > > new road, or a power line right of way, or a driveway, farm lane. It
                        will
                        > > > lead you to places the historical markers never will.
                        > > > I live near Port Gibson and Claiborne County, Mississippi where
                        > > General
                        > > > Grant's army landed and fought its way inland to Port Gibson, Raymond,
                        > > > Champion Hill, Big Black River and Vicksburg. The old roads are all
                        still
                        > > > there, or their remnants, and the battle fields are way back in the
                        woods,
                        > > > untouched, and occupied by hunting camps, the members of which don't
                        know
                        > > > what they're hunting on. You might try this sometime. A GPS receiver
                        > > > helps, though not a necessity. As you drive through and walk this
                        area
                        > > you
                        > > > begin to see the opportunities the Confederate Army had to post Grant
                        and
                        > > > annihilate him, especially when part of Grant's army was north of
                        Bayou
                        > > > Pierre and the other portion not yet crossed. It reminds you of the
                        North
                        > > > Anna where Lee set the trap to pull that off, and of Chancellorsville
                        > > where
                        > > > he did pull it off.
                        > > >
                        > > > Lee England
                        > > > Natchez, Miss.
                        > > >
                        > > > George Butler wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hey Gang!!!
                        > > > > Cant"t we just get back to basics here???
                        > > > > I am bored to tears about these long,rambling dissertations on legal
                        > > > > questions, beating the subject of Hood at Franklin like it was the
                        > > > > proverbial dead horse, and tho I know we have some Phd"s in the
                        > > > > group,can't we make it a little less obvious?
                        > > > > Its the campaigns in the West we're supposed to be addressing
                        > > > > Stop fighting WBTS 2 and lets deal with the information we have
                        > > > > available to us.
                        > > > > We are committing the sin of judging the men(@women) of the past by
                        > > > > the standards of to-day. Makes for very bad judgments.
                        > > > > Now thats off my chest, how about the subject of Kirby Smith and the
                        > > > > TRans-Mississippi? A very neglected area.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • john cole
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                        Message 11 of 15 , May 17, 2001
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                        • Tim Taylor
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                          Message 12 of 15 , May 18, 2001
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                            >
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                          • ShelbyE938@aol.com
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jul 9, 2002
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                            • herpvetminson@aol.com
                              Please remove me from the list, it has been a pleasure to read, but I have to make time for other things just now hopefully will be able to return in time.
                              Message 14 of 15 , Apr 30, 2003
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                                Please remove me from the list, it has been a pleasure to read, but I have to make time for other things just now hopefully will be able to return in time.
                              • josepharose
                                ... but I have to ... return in time. I would kindly suggest that those who don t have time to read a plethora of e-mails, but who are still interested in the
                                Message 15 of 15 , Apr 30, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, herpvetminson@a... wrote:
                                  > Please remove me from the list, it has been a pleasure to read,
                                  but I have to
                                  > make time for other things just now hopefully will be able to
                                  return in time.


                                  I would kindly suggest that those who don't have time to read a
                                  plethora of e-mails, but who are still interested in the site's
                                  content, edit their membership by deselecting "Individual emails.
                                  Send individual email messages" and choosing "No email. Don't send
                                  me email, I'll read the messages at the Web site," instead.

                                  Then they could always check into the site from time to time without
                                  being bothered by any e-mail. It's also a better way, it seems to
                                  me, to follow the course of a thread or to look at older e-mails.

                                  Joseph
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