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46865Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history

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  • Bob Taubman
    Dec 20, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Here we go again .  Thomas, according to Mr. Huddleston, is "forced to fall back".  I wonder why he would be forced to fall back when in fact "After it was clear that the enemy had abandoned his entrenchments in great haste....", General George H. Thomas, the Idomitable Warrior,  p.180, author; Wilbur Thomas.   Also, p.179, "A large quantity of ammunition, commissary stores, camp tools, and garrsion eqiupment, in addition to six Confederate flags, were also found by the victors."  Also, p.179, "Although the Confederates escaped, the opposite bank displayed evidence of their flight by the number of wagons left behind;  and since the boats use in crossing were destroyed, an immediate chase was impossible, although during the day the Fourteenth Ohio succeeded in effecting a crossing for reconnaissance purposes and to collect enemy property left behind."
       
      Mr. Huddleston has in previous correspondence on this topic,  used the term "retreated" in relation to Thomas's actions at Mill Springs.  Now the wording is "forced to fall back."  Why would he have been forced to fall back when the enemy had abandoned the field;  Thomas's forces were able to examine the enemy's entrenchments, and even crossed the river "for reconnaissance purposes and to collect enemy property left behind." 
       
      ISTM leaving the field of battle after successfully routing the enemy, hardly qualifies as a "retreat" or being "forced to fall back."   How many days, months, etc was he to remain at Mill Springs field of battle?
       
      Some collaboration of a "retreat" or "forced to fall back" situation would be appreciated. 
       

       


      From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 12:07:36 AM
      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history

      Thomas commanded in only two battles: Mill Springs, a small (4,500
      Federals to about 5900 Rebels) action where the total casualties were
      about 246 Union to 533 Confederate. Hardly much of a battle, since
      Thomas was forced to fall back after it was over. Thomas commanded some
      ten regiments and Crittenden eight; roughly two divisions fighting it
      out. Thomas casualties were low – but then so were Crittenden’s.

      From Mill Springs, January 19, 1862, until Nashville, almost exactly
      three years later, Thomas was never in command of a single battle; he
      was always in the position of having someone immediately over him, as
      the commander – and the one responsible for the victory or the defeat.

      I already posted the box score for Nashville.

      Take care,

      Bob

      Judy and Bob Huddleston
      10643 Sperry Street
      Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
      Huddleston.r@...

      “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
      fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
      belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
      Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.

      On 12/18/2010 7:39 AM, Jack Lawrence wrote:
      > This is an old argument.
      >
      > No one says cannae when talking about Thomas.
      >
      > But he had a habit of turning back assaults and then pursuing a retreating
      > enemy ( under modern doctrine this is de rigor) to the point that it was
      > rendered combat ineffective to the point that it had to be reconstituted
      > and
      > rearmed.
      >
      > That's what Thomas did. No matter how many survivors, the opposing force
      > was
      > destroyed.
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Jack
      >
      > Amateur military historians study units an numbers. Professional military
      > historians study battles.
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Bob Huddleston" <huddleston.r@...
      > <mailto:huddleston.r%40comcast.net>>
      > To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 7:53 PM
      > Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
      >
      >  >
      >  > In our discussion of the importance of George Thomas, the statement is
      >  > made that he is unique because he destroyed a Civil War army. Leaving
      >  > aside the thought that if that is the sign of greatness, then John Bell
      >  > Hood should be considered the greatest general of all time :>) I did
      >  > some checking in the various secondary sources on the two battles of
      >  > Franklin and Nashville. What I found, and please correct me if my
      >  > figures are wrong, was that the destruction of the AoT was done at
      >  > Franklin and that it would appear that the Rebels at Nashville were
      >  > hardly destroyed, not if they had twenty something thousand when Thomas
      >  > attacked and still had 20,000 a month or so later.
      >  >
      >  > At Franklin:
      >  >
      >  > Schofield:23,939
      >  >
      >  > Hood started north with about approximately 40,000 maximum, but only had
      >  > about 29,000 left at Franklin (there are no decent Confederate numbers)
      >  >
      >  > Losses at Franklin, November 30, 1864:
      >  >
      >  > Schofield:2326
      >  >
      >  > Hood:6200
      >  >
      >  > At Nashville, December 15-16, 1864:
      >  >
      >  > Thomas: 52,000-60,000 (I am startled at the disagreement over the number
      >  > of men Thomas had available!)
      >  >
      >  > Hood:22,000-25,000
      >  >
      >  > Casualties:
      >  >
      >  > Thomas: 3,061 killed, wounded and missing.
      >  >
      >  > Hood: No reports – but there is agreement that Thomas captured 4462
      >  > Confederates and that, when the Army of Tennessee reached Tupelo at the
      >  > beginning of 1865, it had about 20,000 men.
      >  >
      >  > Take care,
      >  >
      >  > Bob
      >  >
      >  > Judy and Bob Huddleston
      >  > 10643 Sperry Street
      >  > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
      >  > Huddleston.r@... <mailto:Huddleston.r%40comcast.net>
      >  >
      >  > “There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals
      >  > fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more
      >  > belligerent.” David Donald, “Refighting the Civil War,” Lincoln
      >  > Reconsidered (New York, 1956), 82.
      >  >
      >  >
      >  > On 12/17/2010 3:39 PM, chris bryant wrote:
      >  >>
      >  >>
      >  >> I'd say it was pretty well sealed before that;any other opinions?
      >  >> Chris Bryant
      >  >> --- On *Fri, 12/17/10, hank9174 /<clarkc@...
      > <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>/* wrote:
      >  >>
      >  >>
      >  >> From: hank9174 <clarkc@... <mailto:clarkc%40missouri.edu>>
      >  >> Subject: [civilwarwest] yesterday in history
      >  >> To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>
      >  >> Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:41 PM
      >  >>
      >  >>
      >  >> 146 years ago George H. Thomas created his magnum opus, his
      >  >> masterpiece, his pièce de résistance: the battle of nashville.
      >  >>
      >  >> If any event truly sealed the fate of the CSA it was the virtual
      >  >> destruction of the AoT...
      >  >>
      >  >> HankC
      >  >>
      >  >> p.s. I kind of miss old joseph rose ;)
      >  >>
      >  >>
      >  >>
      >  >
      >  >
      >  > ------------------------------------
      >  >
      >  > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >  >
      >  >
      >  >
      >  >
      >
      >


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