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44067RE: [civilwarwest] Re: Banning the Slave Trade

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  • Bob Huddleston
    Jul 20, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      First I changed the subject: this topic has nothing to do with Chickamauga!

      Secondly, I just posted before you posted this an answer as to why the 20
      year date. And the Constitutional ban was only refusing permission for
      Congress to do ban the trade before 1808. Congress would then have the
      opportunity or not to place legislation placing the ban into place.

      As for the 3/4, yes it was the Yankees who were willing to compromise on 3/5
      -- because the slave states wanted the slaves counted as a full person. I do
      not remember ever being taught or teaching that the South wanted 3/5.

      And I repeat what I said before: it was South Carolina that did not want ANY
      ban. My source ways it was SC that suggested 1808 rather than 1800 -- what
      ever, the date chosen was a compromise. Massachusetts was pretty much out of
      the trade by the '80s.

      Take care,

      Bob

      Judy and Bob Huddleston
      10643 Sperry Street
      Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
      303.451.6376 Huddleston.r@...

      "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane."
      ---Mark Twain, 1907




      ________________________________

      From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of Steve Hall
      Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 10:26 PM
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: The hard hand of logistics in the
      Chickamauga-Chattanooga Campaign



      I had long wondered why the 20 years. If they want to allow time for the
      ships then at sea to come to port, which was one argument, why so long a
      period? Then I found out that the 20 period was argued for by the
      Massachussetts delegates! Apparently this huge shipping state had an
      investment in ships built for the slave trade, which were very different
      from other ships in that they did not have the large, open holds of other
      cargo ships, but had extensive wood work in the bunks. While bunks could be
      added to almost any cargo ship of the time, it was much easier to build them
      in at the time of construction. The normal "life span" of a sailing ship
      was, you guessed it, 20 years.

      One thing that I find interesting in your post is the votes mentioned. Not
      questioning your information, but I have to wonder why a vote was taken on
      the matter in 1807 when the Constitution states "Section 9. The migration or
      importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think
      proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year
      one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on
      such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person. "

      Why would they need a vote when this was already part of the Constitution?
      What good would a vote be without a Constitutional amendment?

      Here is something interesting that I just found at www.usconstitution.net
      <http://www.usconstitution.net> :

      First we will address the capitation (counting) of slaves in the
      Constitution. On June 11 <http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/debates/611.htm>
      , Roger Sherman suggested that representation be based on a count of all
      free men. The South wanted their slaves counted as whole persons, but that
      would never happen. James Wilson wanted to get the issue out of the way
      quickly, and asked the Convention to adopt the same standard as that in the
      Articles: slaves would count as three-fifths persons. This issue would rise
      again on July 9 <http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/debates/709.htm> , when
      some began to realize that the South could increase their representation in
      the Congress by simply importing new slaves. Recall, too, that everyone
      expected the extreme Southern states to grow in white population as well,
      over the next few decades. The notion was frightening to many from the
      North, and Northern states banded together on July 11
      <http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/debates/711.htm> to completely remove
      slaves from the population counts.

      One thing that this brings to light is that many "history books" and history
      classes make the claim that it was the South that wanted the slaves counted
      as less than a whole person, but reality shows us otherwise.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: William H Keene <mailto:wh_keene@...>
      To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 11:29 PM
      Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: The hard hand of logistics in the
      Chickamauga-Chattanooga Campaign


      --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com> , "Steve Hall" <Tunnelhill@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Upon what do you base this assumption?

      In the records of the debates during the drafting of the
      Constitution, South Carolina's delegates stated that that would not
      agree to the Constitution without the clause that permitted the
      trade
      to continue. In fact General Pinckney, one of South Carolina's
      delegates, stated "South Carolina and Georgia cannot do without
      slaves." I also find it interesting that when the issue was put to
      a vote in 1807, the southern congressmen voted 43-8 Against banning
      the slave trade and the northern congressmen voted 52-6 In Favor of
      banning the slave trade.

      > While you are at it, why was the period 20 years?

      That I dont know.

      > Steve Hall - Commander
      > Lt. Col. William Luffman Camp #938
      > Sons of Confederate Veterans
      > Chatsworth, Georgia
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: William H Keene
      > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 9:26 PM
      > Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: The hard hand of logistics in the
      Chickamauga-Chattanooga Campaign
      >
      >
      > --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com> , "Steve Hall" <Tunnelhill@>
      > I disagree completely with your conclusion. The barring of the
      > importation of slaves in 1774 was an action taken against trade
      > specifically with Britain and was not a permanent end to the
      slave
      > trade. And in reality the 20 year period was because of the south.
      >
      > wrote:
      > > ...
      > > BTW, I found it very interesting to read some of the
      > resolutions passed by the merchants and other citizens in protest
      to
      > the tarriffs and other "intolerable acts" of the British
      government.
      > One clause in particular jumped out. They were listing the items
      > that they would NOT purchase or import, tea being the most
      obvious
      > one, but "Slaves from Africa or the West Indies" came up in
      several
      > of these. Georgia was barring the importation of slaves in 1774!
      > Not the picture painted by the history books concerning the end
      of
      > the slave importation is it? Most of them make it look like it
      was
      > the South that wanted the trade to continue and, barring that,
      > insisted on it continueing for 20 years after the ratification of
      the
      > Constitution, when in reality, the 20 year period was brought out
      by
      > the NORTH!
      > >
      > > Steve Hall - Commander
      > > Lt. Col. William Luffman Camp #938
      > > Sons of Confederate Veterans
      > > Chatsworth, Georgia
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Bob Huddleston
      > > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 5:44 PM
      > > Subject: [civilwarwest] The hard hand of logistics in the
      > Chickamauga-Chattanooga Campaign
      > >
      > >
      > > I noticed this letter in a catalog and thought it worth sharing.
      > >
      > > 189. LETTER-REPORT CONCERNING WAGON TRAINS 3p 8x10 manuscript
      > from Ezra B.
      > > Kirk 71st NY, 14th OVI then AQM Vols. Letter going to Col. A.
      J.
      > McKay
      > > STEVENSON, ALA, Nov 1st 1863. Col, Enclosed I hand you report
      of
      > arrival and
      > > departures of wagons trains at this place for the day. Your
      > dispatch was
      > > received and answered by Telegraph. Enclosed I hand you
      statement
      > of trains
      > > now here with remarks. I have done all in my power to
      facilitate
      > the mooring
      > > of trains but feel that all my labor has been in vain, caused
      so
      > from
      > > several reasons; first, the want of forage. For 3 and 4 days at
      a
      > time not a
      > > sack of corn was to be had and trains were compelled to forage
      in
      > the
      > > country for sufficient to keep their stocks alive. Second, the
      > want of
      > > mechanics to repair the wagons and shoe the mules. I don't
      > pretend to say
      > > whose fault it is that the necessary foreage and mechanics are
      > not provided
      > > but an increased supply of both are very much needed out of the
      > Seventeen
      > > trains now here, only four have a grain of corn, two of them
      > (both belonging
      > > to 3d Divs 14th AC) have sufficient to make the trip to
      > Chatanooga, the
      > > other two a couple of days rations each. I shall send 50 wagons
      > out foraging
      > > in the morning if no forage arrives tonight. The general
      > understanding seems
      > > to be that trains now here and arriving are to remain until the
      > roads
      > > improve and supply of forage is sent to the front is that the
      > fact? In my
      > > report of yesterday, Capt McCunes train of 41 wagons, 3d Div 14
      > AC was
      > > reported as departed, it was an error of my clerk, the train
      has
      > not
      > > started. There will be at least seventy five wagons to be
      > deducted out of
      > > the 456 reported here should you desire to make an estimate of
      > the amt.
      > > transportated. Many of the teams would not be able to haul the
      > empty wagon
      > > back if they had been well fed while here and as it is they
      > cannot get back
      > > without a harness on. Capt. Warren has about 2000 head of
      horses
      > and mules
      > > in one correll and they are decaying at the rate of 30 head per
      > day,
      > > something should be done with them at once. All commissary
      stores
      > are
      > > passing through to Bridgeport. I should like very much to get
      > away from
      > > here. I am Col, very Resp your obtd svt E. B. Kirk AAQM.
      > > 40478..........................$65.00
      > >
      > > Catalog 223, June 2007, Olde Soldier Books
      > >
      > > Take care,
      > >
      > > Bob
      > >
      > > Judy and Bob Huddleston
      > > 10643 Sperry Street
      > > Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
      > > 303.451.6376 Huddleston.r@
      > >
      > > "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries
      > are insane."
      > >
      > > ---Mark Twain, 1907
      > >
      >
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